djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Sept 5, 2012 18:15:14 GMT -5
The "Obamamania" in 2008 was different. For some reason I'll never fathom, people believed his "Hope and Change" rhetoric.Eight years of terrorism, war, recession, increasing debt, downward pressure on income, insecure job markets, losing most if not everything in the markets. ...deficits, torture, job losses, financial tumult, bankrupsies, overturned real estate markets, fishing expeditions for non-existent weapons, the incessant fake texas twang relaying non-facts and bumbling speeches constantly, the imperial presidency, the attack on about 1/3 of the bill of rights, declining real estate values, a 50% decline in the stock market, and a complete and utter loss of hope that ANYTHING humane, right, or moral could be engendered by an American president, both here and abroad. how about that? if there is any candidate out there that could possibly do worse than W, i don't want to know about him or her.
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vandalshandle
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Post by vandalshandle on Sept 5, 2012 19:12:43 GMT -5
...and just to round it out, the total failure of the federal government response to New Orleans after Katrina, to the extent that we envied third world nations who got more help from the USA than New Orleans did for the first month or so.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Sept 5, 2012 19:34:41 GMT -5
...and just to round it out, the total failure of the federal government response to New Orleans after Katrina, to the extent that we envied third world nations who got more help from the USA than New Orleans did for the first month or so. i tend to forget that one, even though i realize that you never will, Vandal. forgive the oversight.
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EVT1
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Post by EVT1 on Sept 5, 2012 20:51:06 GMT -5
...and just to round it out, the total failure of the federal government response to New Orleans after Katrina, to the extent that we envied third world nations who got more help from the USA than New Orleans did for the first month or so. Pretty bad when you get upstaged by Walmart.
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Value Buy
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Post by Value Buy on Sept 5, 2012 21:48:59 GMT -5
...and just to round it out, the total failure of the federal government response to New Orleans after Katrina, to the extent that we envied third world nations who got more help from the USA than New Orleans did for the first month or so. Pretty bad when you get upstaged by Walmart. Which brings us back to who does the job best Big Government? Private enterprise, who built their own business, whether Obama believes it or not.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Sept 5, 2012 22:51:23 GMT -5
I've always thought that if Pres. Obama had only done what he'd claimed he'd do, he wouldn't be fighting for his political life this election.
He pledged to cut the deficit and didn't. He pledged to regulate Wall Street, and all we got was two token pieces of toothless legislation that Wall Street interest didn't even bother to oppose. He promised to regulate HFT and didn't. He pledged to eliminate the Bush tax cuts and didn't. He pledged to end the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan ASAP and didn't. He promised not to start new wars, and he reneged. He promised to close down Gitmo and didn't. He promised to end military tribunals and kangaroo court justice and didn't. He promised not to expand domestic spying, and he reneged. He promised to close US secret prisons on foreign soil and didn't. He claimed he was fundamentally opposed to gay "marriage" and then reversed his position when it was politically expedient. He promised to push through campaign finance reform and didn't. He promised to end the revolving door from K Street to the White House and didn't. He promised to end the revolving door from the Treasury Department to the SEC to Wall Street and didn't. He promised to cut defense spending and didn't.
These aren't failures, they're outright lies. He said he was going to do them and in most cases he did exactly the opposite.
Many of the items on the list are things he's claiming he'll do in his upcoming second term.
The main difference between 2008 and 2012 is that the world at large believed him in 2008.
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tallguy
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Post by tallguy on Sept 5, 2012 22:55:52 GMT -5
At least some of those are directly attributable to the intransigence of Congressional Republicans, however.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Sept 5, 2012 23:43:39 GMT -5
At least some of those are directly attributable to the intransigence of Congressional Republicans, however. Pretty much all of them are attributable to the fact that the Democrats and the Republicans are the same party owned by the same interests, with slightly different bells and whistles attached.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Sept 5, 2012 23:54:11 GMT -5
Pretty bad when you get upstaged by Walmart. Which brings us back to who does the job best Big Government? competent government of ANY size would suit me just fine. Bush administration? no size would be small enough.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Sept 5, 2012 23:55:50 GMT -5
At least some of those are directly attributable to the intransigence of Congressional Republicans, however. Pretty much all of them are attributable to the fact that the Democrats and the Republicans are the same party owned by the same interests, with slightly different bells and whistles attached. ZOOM! there are days i wish you lived here, Virgil.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Sept 6, 2012 7:22:10 GMT -5
Obama in 2008 was the proverbial blank canvas. People put onto Obama whatever they "hoped". Of course some of us were paying attention, we knew his record, and we saw the danger-- but it didn't matter. Voters were fed up with Bush, and they'd had enough of the spending, the endless wars with no strategy for victory, and no exit strategy either. Obama ran as a centrist, even a conservative on spending. So, people ignored all the warning signs and voted in anger basically against Bush, or in "hope" for a "fresh" new, exciting candidate.
Now, Obama has something weighing him down he didn't have in 2008- a record.
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Post by billisonboard on Sept 6, 2012 7:55:11 GMT -5
Obama in 2008 was the proverbial blank canvas. People put onto Obama whatever they "hoped". ... Now, Obama has something weighing him down he didn't have in 2008- a record. ... "hoped" or "feared" I would add. He has certainly disappointed some on the left with that record.
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Value Buy
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Post by Value Buy on Sept 6, 2012 8:46:52 GMT -5
Obama in 2008 was the proverbial blank canvas. People put onto Obama whatever they "hoped". ... Now, Obama has something weighing him down he didn't have in 2008- a record. ... "hoped" or "feared" I would add. He has certainly disappointed some on the left with that record. Remember Hillary Clinton warning Dems in the primary of electing a President and doing the "on the job training program"? Well, that was exactly what the country got.
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Post by deziloooooo on Sept 6, 2012 9:08:48 GMT -5
Obama in 2008 was the proverbial blank canvas. People put onto Obama whatever they "hoped". ... Now, Obama has something weighing him down he didn't have in 2008- a record. ... "hoped" or "feared" I would add. He has certainly disappointed some on the left with that record. Some, not all by any means, but some who feel they have all the answers , extreme left, and anything less then doing their wants is evil..but for most , there is a understanding of reality...There are always extremist , both parties...methinks we have much less on our side and much better control of them too as far as influence of the whole is considered.. On the other hand, other side, you have to admit..extremist really run amok on so many things that hurt your over all message..very , very intolerant of any straying from the mantra of the party..even if it costs whole bodies of voters in a major turn off... Something like Captain of Titanic as ship disappears under the waves.." We are not going to sink, we are not g...blub, blub, blub.."
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Post by workpublic on Sept 6, 2012 9:19:11 GMT -5
Pretty much all of them are attributable to the fact that the Democrats and the Republicans are the same party owned by the same interests, with slightly different bells and whistles attached.
100% agree
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Sept 6, 2012 10:31:15 GMT -5
Obama in 2008 was the proverbial blank canvas. People put onto Obama whatever they "hoped". Of course some of us were paying attention, we knew his record, and we saw the danger-- but it didn't matter. Voters were fed up with Bush, and they'd had enough of the spending, the endless wars with no strategy for victory, and no exit strategy either. Obama ran as a centrist, even a conservative on spending. So, people ignored all the warning signs and voted in anger basically against Bush, or in "hope" for a "fresh" new, exciting candidate. Now, Obama has something weighing him down he didn't have in 2008- a record. Romney is trying that same strategy and thinking he can win with it. it actually passes the logic test, except Republicans hate vague proposals.
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vandalshandle
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Post by vandalshandle on Sept 6, 2012 13:04:08 GMT -5
Paul, While your assessment of Obama being elected because of Bush is true, one should not marginalize just how catastrophic Bush was to this country, or the backlash as a result of it. I left the Republican party because of Bush. I have not been so disgusted with a president since Nixon, whose ouster brought me IN to the Republican party. By the end of the Bush presidency, even Abraham Lincoln could not have been elected on a republican ticket.
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Post by Opti on Sept 7, 2012 4:16:01 GMT -5
Pretty much all of them are attributable to the fact that the Democrats and the Republicans are the same party owned by the same interests, with slightly different bells and whistles attached. ZOOM! there are days i wish you lived here, Virgil. I do live here and feel the same as Virgil in the above quote. Perhaps we can do an exchange and he can come to the US and I can go to Canada for universal healthcare and a job? (DJ doesn't appreciate me anymore. )
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Post by Opti on Sept 7, 2012 4:21:55 GMT -5
Obama in 2008 was the proverbial blank canvas. People put onto Obama whatever they "hoped". ... Now, Obama has something weighing him down he didn't have in 2008- a record. ... "hoped" or "feared" I would add. He has certainly disappointed some on the left with that record. As a centrist I hoped I would be wrong and he would make good on more of his promises. Sadly I didn't anticipate he would continue Bush's program of gutting American freedoms under the guise of 911 and national security. I should have feared it but no longer feel either of the two mainstream party candidates aren't going to ground the country on those kind of rocks ala the Titanic example above. I did rightly fear Biden's influence because of his connections with Wall Street would translate to not doing necessary reforms to prevent another bailout and lessing the too big too fail problem.
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Post by Opti on Sept 7, 2012 4:24:18 GMT -5
In my opinion people do this with almost all political figures including the opposite issue - projecting their irrational fears on them with nothing or little to back it up either.
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reasonfreedom
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Post by reasonfreedom on Sept 7, 2012 10:26:44 GMT -5
The "Obamamania" in 2008 was different. For some reason I'll never fathom, people believed his "Hope and Change" rhetoric.Eight years of terrorism, war, recession, increasing debt, downward pressure on income, insecure job markets, losing most if not everything in the markets. For most Obama supporters he symbolize a hope for a better day and the possibility of a change back to the way things were. And before you accuse me of blaming Bush, the 8 years just happens to coincide with a down turn that started with the dot bomb as Clinton left office which was accented by the country's worst terror attack. This time through everyone is a bit more realistic. Wishing and hoping doesn't get it done and if you want change you need to get off your butt and go find it. Personally I think Obama made some real bad mistakes in how he dealt with the pubs in his first year. For more mature, been around Washington longer kind of guys, I think the pubs reacted like first year politicians. I could vote for Romney, I've done it before BUT I can't bring myself to ever again vote for the party of social conservatism. I can't vote for a party that doesn't believe in the American system and is unwilling to compromise. On the other hand, when you get by the sound bites I agree with a lot of what Obama says. Not everything but enough to make me feel good about voting this year. Obama and the democrats have been just as unwilling to compromise. They don't want to compromise unless you raise taxes on the rich and republicans don't want to compromise on increasing taxes.
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reasonfreedom
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Post by reasonfreedom on Sept 7, 2012 10:28:17 GMT -5
Pretty much all of them are attributable to the fact that the Democrats and the Republicans are the same party owned by the same interests, with slightly different bells and whistles attached. 100% agree Agreed, the banks payed for Obama's campaign and now they Pay for Romney's. For people to think that any of these candidates are looking out for the best interest of the average person is ridiculous.
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Driftr
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Post by Driftr on Sept 7, 2012 10:30:06 GMT -5
I've always thought that if Pres. Obama had only done what he'd claimed he'd do, he wouldn't be fighting for his political life this election. He pledged to cut the deficit and didn't. He pledged to regulate Wall Street, and all we got was two token pieces of toothless legislation that Wall Street interest didn't even bother to oppose. He promised to regulate HFT and didn't. He pledged to eliminate the Bush tax cuts and didn't. He pledged to end the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan ASAP and didn't. He promised not to start new wars, and he reneged. He promised to close down Gitmo and didn't. He promised to end military tribunals and kangaroo court justice and didn't. He promised not to expand domestic spying, and he reneged. He promised to close US secret prisons on foreign soil and didn't. He claimed he was fundamentally opposed to gay "marriage" and then reversed his position when it was politically expedient. He promised to push through campaign finance reform and didn't. He promised to end the revolving door from K Street to the White House and didn't. He promised to end the revolving door from the Treasury Department to the SEC to Wall Street and didn't. He promised to cut defense spending and didn't. These aren't failures, they're outright lies. He said he was going to do them and in most cases he did exactly the opposite. Many of the items on the list are things he's claiming he'll do in his upcoming second term. The main difference between 2008 and 2012 is that the world at large believed him in 2008. I do love lists.
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reasonfreedom
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Post by reasonfreedom on Sept 7, 2012 10:32:05 GMT -5
Obama in 2008 was the proverbial blank canvas. People put onto Obama whatever they "hoped". Of course some of us were paying attention, we knew his record, and we saw the danger-- but it didn't matter. Voters were fed up with Bush, and they'd had enough of the spending, the endless wars with no strategy for victory, and no exit strategy either. Obama ran as a centrist, even a conservative on spending. So, people ignored all the warning signs and voted in anger basically against Bush, or in "hope" for a "fresh" new, exciting candidate. Now, Obama has something weighing him down he didn't have in 2008- a record. Romney is trying that same strategy and thinking he can win with it. it actually passes the logic test, except Republicans hate vague proposals. I see it as a coin toss, how can people vote for Obama after his record/lack of experience and how can they vote for Romney the flip\flop king. I see both on the edge and either one can fall of at any moment.
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reasonfreedom
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Post by reasonfreedom on Sept 7, 2012 10:39:53 GMT -5
On the main subject here I can't agree more than I already do with your thoughts DJ. The problem we have is people believe they only have two options so they will never know what it is to be open-minded. As much as people want to believe that black and white are the only 2 options the best things come from the gray.
Most people think either candidate would be better. The fact is that either candidate are rarely going to hold to the words\policies they promise, most of what they say in the race is just pure crowd manipulation. Wave the candy in front of all the children and tell them to vote for me and when they do vote for that candidate the candidate will be like " That candy will take some time to get to you, but I will give it to you. In reality that candy is a huge big delusion of the voters mind. If people really want a candidate that will do what they want, I suggest making billions of dollars and paying them off( that is what the banks do, who do you think actually ran this country? The people? ROLFMAO).
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