jkapp
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Post by jkapp on May 15, 2012 8:18:03 GMT -5
Just apply free market principles to the health care system and those costs will vanish.... Deregulate proprietary rights and allow open global competition and those cost will vanish... Just make sure that the incoming drug meet USDA regulations and we would be good to go............ we already have a free market. it sucks arse. i would like the option of something less "free", to compete with all of that lovely "freedom". most Americans agree. that does not put them out of step with the rest of the world, but IN step with it. but when that line of reasoning wins the day, don't worry. you can still have your overpriced private care. we won't stop you. wasting money is a privilege we wouldn't dream of denying the elite. That's fine...but then I would like to include a statute that states hospitals and doctors can not make up the shortfall from underpaid government payments by charging extra to private insurance. Then good luck finding a doctor or hospital that will accept your government insurance  You see, its easy to say how great government insurance is when it is being kept afloat by private insurance (and it helps explain why private insurance is so much more expensive). |
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on May 15, 2012 9:54:50 GMT -5
no, but a person who says "i think it is impossible here" or "it will bankrupt us" is saying "we can't". a careful review of the posts here will show where people have said that, if not in those exact words. do you want me to cite examples? No, it doesn't mean "we can't," it means "we shouldn't." As in, we shouldn't turn out system into a UHC system that will ultimately fail. right.....so you are assuming we will fail. that is precisely my point. |
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jkapp
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Post by jkapp on May 15, 2012 10:11:34 GMT -5
No, it doesn't mean "we can't," it means "we shouldn't." As in, we shouldn't turn out system into a UHC system that will ultimately fail. right.....so you are assuming we will fail. that is precisely my point. I'm just going by the track record of government programs...insanity is doing the same thing over and over, expecting a different result. Oh, but UHC will be different...right  |
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on May 15, 2012 10:49:21 GMT -5
So you think you'll be seen immediately in the ER? With heartburn? Yes, and I was....although it was about 1:00 AM at the time, so the ER was my only choice. And let me tell you, if the doctors didn't tell me it was heartburn, I would have sworn it was a much more serious issue. It was less like burn and more like pain/palpitation feeling. The reason you were seen immediately was because you were complaining of chest pain. Any complaint of chest pain activates immediate triage and treatment, because it could be a heart attack. Sadly, every drunk, hypochondriac, and drug seeker knows this. *That's not to say you're any of those, jkapp. Heartburn does bring some folks to the ER because they're afraid something is really, really wrong. It can hurt like the devil and it's better to come in and be evaluated than take a risk.  * |
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on May 15, 2012 10:51:39 GMT -5
Who said anything about "doing the same thing over and over", jkapp. Those of us who have advocated in favor of some sort of UHC have said (and said, and said) we need to evaluate other systems and develop something that WILL WORK. We've said we believe this country, and its people, to be able to do this. You seem to think us incapable of innovating in that manner. You're entitled to your opinion, but I disagree.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on May 15, 2012 10:58:40 GMT -5
right.....so you are assuming we will fail. that is precisely my point. I'm just going by the track record of government programs... like social security? yeah. dismal failure. rural electric? the interstate highway system? railroad easements? child labor laws? the judicial system? all horrible and ineffective. we should do away with everything and let GE take care of us.insanity is doing the same thing over and over, expecting a different result. and stupidity is failing to recognize successes, and never trying to duplicate them.Oh, but UHC will be different...right right. so other countries have had universal healthcare for over half a century with broad success, yet there is something inferior about the US- something defective- which prevents us from doing the same? what happened to American Exceptionalism? what happened to that "can do" spirit? where did my country go? |
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on May 15, 2012 11:04:29 GMT -5
Who said anything about "doing the same thing over and over", jkapp. Those of us who have advocated in favor of some sort of UHC have said (and said, and said) we need to evaluate other systems and develop something that WILL WORK. We've said we believe this country, and its people, to be able to do this. You seem to think us incapable of innovating in that manner. You're entitled to your opinion, but I disagree. precisely. we are ALREADY doing the same thing over and over again. so, according to jk, we are insane. i totally agree. these town hall meetings where outraged seniors went on hysterical rants about losing their medicare, and being euthanized, was all the proof i needed. time to try something new. time to try something better. |
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on May 15, 2012 11:08:36 GMT -5
You see, its easy to say how great government insurance is when it is being kept afloat by private insurance (and it helps explain why private insurance is so much more expensive). that is not how it works, elsewhere. quite the opposite, in fact. the public system UNBURDENS the private system, and makes it easier for people who want access to it, to obtain it. rather than having people cluttering up private ER with heartburn which would cost them bank, they do so with the public system, which costs them nothing more than a copay- so that when someone has a heart attack, and wants IMMEDIATE care, and can afford it, they can get it. |
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on May 15, 2012 11:15:33 GMT -5
Things like heart attacks and strokes have very narrow windows of opportunity. In a properly designed UHC, such conditions would still receive immediate triage and treatment. There would be no need to turn to the private side. The private side would serve those who don't choose to wait for their non-emergency surgeries, or treatments. If they want to pay for immediate gratification, I see no reason not to let them do so.
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2012 11:20:14 GMT -5
I'm just going by the track record of government programs... like social security? yeah. dismal failure. rural electric? the interstate highway system? railroad easements? child labor laws? the judicial system? all horrible and ineffective. we should do away with everything and let GE take care of us.insanity is doing the same thing over and over, expecting a different result. and stupidity is failing to recognize successes, and never trying to duplicate them.Oh, but UHC will be different...right right. so other countries have had universal healthcare for over half a century with broad success, yet there is something inferior about the US- something defective- which prevents us from doing the same? what happened to American Exceptionalism? what happened to that "can do" spirit? where did my country go? The fact that you think SS is a raging success kind of makes the rest of your post pointless. Gotta love those IOU's in the SS Fund. Just because a program is holding on by the skin of its teeth doesn't make it a success. |
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on May 15, 2012 11:21:37 GMT -5
Things like heart attacks and strokes have very narrow windows of opportunity. In a properly designed UHC, such conditions would still receive immediate triage and treatment. that is certainly how it works elsewhere, but i phrased that rather inelegantly. what i meant was that if people are REALLY WORRIED about it, they can keep their luxury private healthcare.There would be no need to turn to the private side. The private side would serve those who don't choose to wait for their non-emergency surgeries, or treatments. If they want to pay for immediate gratification, I see no reason not to let them do so. precisely. you might also be able to get a massage while you wait for your breast enhancement or facelift. |
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on May 15, 2012 11:25:58 GMT -5
right. so other countries have had universal healthcare for over half a century with broad success, yet there is something inferior about the US- something defective- which prevents us from doing the same? what happened to American Exceptionalism? what happened to that "can do" spirit? where did my country go? The fact that you think SS is a raging success kind of makes the rest of your post pointless. Gotta love those IOU's in the SS Fund. Just because a program is holding on by the skin of its teeth doesn't make it a success. first of all, i never said "raging success", so that is a red herring. i IMPLIED that it was NOT a dismal failure. that is quite different. secondly, most people regard SS as a national treasure, and an important part of our retirement system. if you don't- i am perfectly fine with that. however, i will go along with your third point. if you think that SS is a dismal failure, then there really is no point in discussing this with you. |
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2012 11:31:26 GMT -5
The fact that you think SS is a raging success kind of makes the rest of your post pointless. Gotta love those IOU's in the SS Fund. Just because a program is holding on by the skin of its teeth doesn't make it a success. first of all, i never said "raging success", so that is a red herring. i IMPLIED that it was NOT a dismal failure. that is quite different. secondly, most people regard SS as a national treasure, and an important part of our retirement system. if you don't- i am perfectly fine with that. You don't talk to a lot of the younger generations do you? It's "GREAT" if you're in that "you'll get it no matter what" age, but for those of us who are younger the talk of "we'll keep raising the age you can get it OR we will means test it in case you don't 'need' it" gets a little old. Especially considering I've probably paid in far more than many of the older generations who are getting much more than ever put into it. Success I tell you! Success. Also, how is it not a dismal failure since it's going to take some drastic overhaul to keep SS solvent for the future? |
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on May 15, 2012 11:35:35 GMT -5
first of all, i never said "raging success", so that is a red herring. i IMPLIED that it was NOT a dismal failure. that is quite different. secondly, most people regard SS as a national treasure, and an important part of our retirement system. if you don't- i am perfectly fine with that. You don't talk to a lot of the younger generations do you? all the time. i only have one employee that is older than me. the rest are younger. i also attend a lot of music festivals. not exactly inhabited by elders. but what you said in your post is wrong, by the way. people my age and younger won't be getting NO SS, we will be getting LESS, unless it is fixed. are people my age counting on it? they say no. i don't really know whether they believe that or not. |
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on May 15, 2012 11:42:46 GMT -5
Also, how is it not a dismal failure since it's going to take some drastic overhaul to keep SS solvent for the future? i think we need to examine your definition of "insolvent" and "overhaul". let's start with insolvent. i don't think that is a proper characterization of what is to happen. i think DOWNSIZING might be a closer analogy. the closest one would be "cutting benefits". that does not equate to insolvency. i also think overhaul is too strong a word- but a will accede to the idea that we use that term all of the time- it is part of the vernacular even for minor modifications to what we do. ie: reducing troop levels by 1% is an overhaul of the military. medicare needs to be overhauled. SS just needs some minor tweaks OR we need to accept that it will not pay out 100%. it really is that simple. that doesn't mean that SS is useless, or a dismal failure. it isn't. |
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2012 11:53:47 GMT -5
As this country continues its slow creep towards a socialist state, and is slowly bogging down under the public debt from it's "necessary" programs, the debt can only be sustained through the low interest rates brought about by quantitative easing. The devaluing dollar also brings about a continual lowering of our living standard. Why are so many people surprised that this degradation also includes health care ? So the answer is what, another un-affordable borrowed money program like UHC ?
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workpublic
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Post by workpublic on May 15, 2012 11:59:36 GMT -5
The devaluing dollar also brings about a continual lowering of our living standard. Why are so many people surprised that this degradation also includes health care ?
agree
the SOL is dropping noticeably in my lifetime.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on May 15, 2012 12:19:49 GMT -5
As this country continues its slow creep towards a socialist state, and is slowly bogging down under the public debt from it's "necessary" programs, the debt can only be sustained through the low interest rates brought about by quantitative easing. The devaluing dollar also brings about a continual lowering of our living standard. Why are so many people surprised that this degradation also includes health care ? So the answer is what, another un-affordable borrowed money program like UHC ? it doesn't have to be borrowed. we really are stuck in failure mode, aren't we? |
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vandalshandle
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Post by vandalshandle on May 15, 2012 12:21:52 GMT -5
The reason that there is a train load of new Fords coming North from Mexico past my community in the Santa Cruz river valley in AZ every other night is that Ford's highest costing component in the American automobile assembly process (other than wages) is workers health insurance and pensions. The cost of health insurance has cost more than steel to Ford since 1977. And yet, the Right believes that our present linking of health coverage to employee group health insurance is GOOD!  |
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2012 12:27:57 GMT -5
As this country continues its slow creep towards a socialist state, and is slowly bogging down under the public debt from it's "necessary" programs, the debt can only be sustained through the low interest rates brought about by quantitative easing. The devaluing dollar also brings about a continual lowering of our living standard. Why are so many people surprised that this degradation also includes health care ? So the answer is what, another un-affordable borrowed money program like UHC ? it doesn't have to be borrowed. we really are stuck in failure mode, aren't we? We operate at a deficit every year, more cost adds to it. |
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on May 15, 2012 13:10:48 GMT -5
it doesn't have to be borrowed. we really are stuck in failure mode, aren't we? We operate at a deficit every year, more cost adds to it. yeah, i can see how that would sour one's perspective. |
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2012 18:59:59 GMT -5
"what sort of rational person would tolerate paying 2x what every other developed nation pays for their healthcare"
Are you sure this is an apples-to-apples comparison? I suspect it is not. To truly compare, you'd have to pick the average person in the US and compare that person's cost of care in the US and cost of equivalent care in another country. Also, you still have the dilemma of price controls on technology and medicine. Sure, we could implement them, but the whole world would suffer for it. I'd rather see other developed nations pay a fairer share.
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2012 19:03:06 GMT -5
"The fact that you think SS is a raging success kind of makes the rest of your post pointless. Gotta love those IOU's in the SS Fund."
Texan, this issue of IOUs is a bit of a wives tale. The money can either be left as cash (i.e. earn no interest), or it can be invested. Since we as a nation have decided that we are not willing to invest the SS dollars in any investment that carries risk, the only choice is to invest in US gov't debt.
The idea that the money has been "taken" really isnt' true. The money will be paid back. Of course, with a ballooning debt, this is not sustainable, but for now it is still a safe investment. Until it isn't. But that's a whole different issue.
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