djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on May 14, 2012 18:58:10 GMT -5
UHC is one of those things that sounds great in theory, but in practice it will destroy us. It would bankrupt this country and cause the quality of care to drop. Public schools are a good example, everyone hates how it's run and how bad many of them are, yet we want to turn our healthcare over to the government. ok, two questions. first of all, who ever talked about taking over healthcare? my understanding is that this is all about insurance. second, our current system is already bankrupting us. it is larger than the entire Federal Budget, and growing far faster. it is the #1 cause of personal bankruptcy. and it will get worse, if we don't do something. forgive me if i don't choose to view the cure as worse than the disease.
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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2012 19:07:10 GMT -5
"that only makes sense if you can determine precisely what time and date someone contracted an illness."
It's quite complicated, which is why it doesn't work that way. And I'm pretty sure it would be based on diagnosis, not when it was contracted. And even that has it's complications. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "but you didn't answer the question: what is it?"
Depends on the plan. An HDHP is closer to insurance than others that are better described as "coverage".
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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2012 19:14:57 GMT -5
Can we dispense with the "can't do" comments. A person who wants reform that fixes problems without giving gov't the control is not saying "we can't".
Given that this country was founded based on the desire for freedom, what's wrong with trying to find a solution that fixes the problem without taking away individual freedom?
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on May 14, 2012 19:15:14 GMT -5
"that only makes sense if you can determine precisely what time and date someone contracted an illness." It's quite complicated, which is why it doesn't work that way. And I'm pretty sure it would be based on diagnosis, not when it was contracted. And even that has it's complications. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "but you didn't answer the question: what is it?" Depends on the plan. An HDHP is closer to insurance than others that are better described as "coverage". is there any ..... i don't know how to put this .... are there any businesses that make that distinction?
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on May 14, 2012 19:17:55 GMT -5
Can we dispense with the "can't do" comments. A person who wants reform that fixes problems without giving gov't the control is not saying "we can't". no, but a person who says "i think it is impossible here" or "it will bankrupt us" is saying "we can't". a careful review of the posts here will show where people have said that, if not in those exact words. do you want me to cite examples?
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on May 14, 2012 19:19:21 GMT -5
Given that this country was founded based on the desire for freedom, what's wrong with trying to find a solution that fixes the problem without taking away individual freedom? nothing. but i don't consider personal bankruptcy a liberating experience. and before you accuse me of exaggerating, let me remind you that two of my elderly relatives (of considerable worth) were bankrupted by long term medical care. this is personal for me, ib.
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formerexpat
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Post by formerexpat on May 14, 2012 19:23:55 GMT -5
Warren's study on this has been discredited.
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formerexpat
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Post by formerexpat on May 14, 2012 19:26:16 GMT -5
3 cents on a dollar, derived by the income received on investing the money between receipt and payment is a "sweet profit"?
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on May 14, 2012 19:28:47 GMT -5
Warren's study on this has been discredited. has it? i hadn't heard that. got a link?
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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2012 19:29:24 GMT -5
"3 cents on a dollar, derived by the income received on investing the money between receipt and payment is a "sweet profit"? "
I think few people realize how insurance companies actually make money. And of the 16-17% overhead, that includes the overhead required to make that measly profit.
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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2012 19:35:48 GMT -5
"is there any ..... i don't know how to put this .... are there any businesses that make that distinction?"
I'm not quite following what you're asking again.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "no, but a person who says "i think it is impossible here" or "it will bankrupt us" is saying "we can't". "
OK, you make a good point. The whole point of having a representative gov't is for the representatives to work together and make those hard decisions. So far, that's what we're lacking. I could probably go for UHC if it really were shown to be the best option after a thoughtful and open-minded review of the situation.
---------------------------------------------------------------- "nothing. but i don't consider personal bankruptcy a liberating experience."
Neither do I. I think we all agree there is a problem.
------------------------------------------------------------- "has it? i hadn't heard that. got a link?"
The reality is that medical debt might be the #1 debt that puts people over the edge. But when a person who has $20k in consumer debt goes bankrupt after getting hit with a $20k medical debt, you can't say that the medical debt was the cause. That's the main problem with the study. I'd say it's far more likely that bad financial decisions are the #1 cause of bankruptcy.
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formerexpat
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Post by formerexpat on May 14, 2012 19:43:11 GMT -5
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formerexpat
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Post by formerexpat on May 14, 2012 19:48:16 GMT -5
Wonder how many know that about 1-2% of that 16-17% is related to government fees imposed on the industry? And that figure will be increasing due to Obamacare.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on May 14, 2012 19:53:54 GMT -5
"3 cents on a dollar, derived by the income received on investing the money between receipt and payment is a "sweet profit"? " I think few people realize how insurance companies actually make money. And of the 16-17% overhead, that includes the overhead required to make that measly profit. i am not sure i would say "required". Kaiser's overhead is much lower. and medicare runs in the single digits. but the latter doesn't have to pay for advertizing, promotion, etc. these are costs that i described earlier as "waste", in that they don't improve the care of patients.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on May 14, 2012 19:54:52 GMT -5
thanks for the links. i am not too keen on wsjonline, but i think the Atlantic is terrific.
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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2012 19:59:47 GMT -5
"i am not sure i would say "required". Kaiser's overhead is much lower. and medicare runs in the single digits. but the latter doesn't have to pay for advertizing, promotion, etc. these are costs that i described earlier as "waste", in that they don't improve the care of patients."
All I was saying was that the the overhead might be, say 14% instead of 16%. Also, Medicare's overhead is not all that relevant. It's low because the average bill that they pay is much higher. And they do spend money on marketing and advertising, although I'm sure not as much as an insurance company does.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on May 14, 2012 20:08:42 GMT -5
"i am not sure i would say "required". Kaiser's overhead is much lower. and medicare runs in the single digits. but the latter doesn't have to pay for advertizing, promotion, etc. these are costs that i described earlier as "waste", in that they don't improve the care of patients." All I was saying was that the the overhead might be, say 14% instead of 16%. Also, Medicare's overhead is not all that relevant. It's low because the average bill that they pay is much higher. And they do spend money on marketing and advertising, although I'm sure not as much as an insurance company does. medicare IS insurance tho, right? they don't actually provide care, they are just a conduit for money.
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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2012 20:22:51 GMT -5
medicare IS insurance tho, right?
Maybe so. It takes more expertise to recongnize what is than to recognize what isn't, so I'm not certain.
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formerexpat
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Post by formerexpat on May 14, 2012 20:59:24 GMT -5
Medicare cost per person insured is astronomical...but so is its spending per person, which creates a nonsensical figure.
Advertising and promotion is an exaggerated comment; over 60% of people have insurance through their employer - they don't need advertised to for health insurance.
United Healthcare employs nearly 70,000 people. It costs a lot to employ them.
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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2012 21:05:46 GMT -5
"over 60% of people have insurance through their employer"
I'm not up to date on all the statistics, but I think the most efficient plans are ones where an insurance company manages a large corporation's self-insured plan. Probably much more efficient than Medicare if one could do a true apples to apples comparison.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on May 14, 2012 21:24:28 GMT -5
Medicare cost per person insured is astronomical...but so is its spending per person, which creates a nonsensical figure. Advertising and promotion is an exaggerated comment; over 60% of people have insurance through their employer - they don't need advertised to for health insurance. United Healthcare employs nearly 70,000 people. It costs a lot to employ them. UHC sucks royal hindquarters. they are the worst insurer i have ever dealt with.
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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2012 21:43:26 GMT -5
Luckily you have choices. It would suck if there were only one option....
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on May 14, 2012 21:58:50 GMT -5
Luckily you have choices. It would suck if there were only one option.... nobody suggested that as a solution. what i, and many others, have suggested, repeatedly, is one MORE option than i have now. a public one.
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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2012 22:25:26 GMT -5
That was just a joke....
But it sure seemed like you were arguing for universal healthcare.
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Post by dumdeedoe on May 14, 2012 22:44:01 GMT -5
Look at the government today. How can a rational(non brainwashed) person believe that UHC has a chance at a long term solution? How does a rational person believe that it is in their best interests to hand more money/control to a government that has no ability to stay with in a budget or even keep most programs running for more than a decade? Do they believe it will not become a huge money pool that politicians can and will redirect to other pet projects??? I tell you what you dunder brains lets just hand them our checks and bend over I'm sure that it will be pleasant.........
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on May 14, 2012 23:03:39 GMT -5
Look at the government today. How can a rational(non brainwashed) person believe that UHC has a chance at a long term solution? what sort of rational person would tolerate paying 2x what every other developed nation pays for their healthcare, and think that we shouldn't explore EVERY AVENUE for fixing it?
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dumdeedoe
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Post by dumdeedoe on May 14, 2012 23:16:14 GMT -5
Just apply free market principles to the health care system and those costs will vanish.... Deregulate proprietary rights and allow open global competition and those cost will vanish... Just make sure that the incoming drug meet USDA regulations and we would be good to go............
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on May 14, 2012 23:48:40 GMT -5
Just apply free market principles to the health care system and those costs will vanish.... Deregulate proprietary rights and allow open global competition and those cost will vanish... Just make sure that the incoming drug meet USDA regulations and we would be good to go............ we already have a free market. it sucks arse. i would like the option of something less "free", to compete with all of that lovely "freedom". most Americans agree. that does not put them out of step with the rest of the world, but IN step with it. but when that line of reasoning wins the day, don't worry. you can still have your overpriced private care. we won't stop you. wasting money is a privilege we wouldn't dream of denying the elite.
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Post by jkapp on May 15, 2012 8:07:18 GMT -5
Can we dispense with the "can't do" comments. A person who wants reform that fixes problems without giving gov't the control is not saying "we can't". no, but a person who says "i think it is impossible here" or "it will bankrupt us" is saying "we can't". a careful review of the posts here will show where people have said that, if not in those exact words. do you want me to cite examples? No, it doesn't mean "we can't," it means "we shouldn't." As in, we shouldn't turn out system into a UHC system that will ultimately fail.
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Post by jkapp on May 15, 2012 8:10:09 GMT -5
The same day, and it will take most of it, as well. We had something similar to those in the last city I lived in, and it was a "take a number, and wait your turn" (and hope there aren't 50 people ahead of you). They work great if you have the whole day to wait, and get rather generic health treatment/advice. I had to go to one of these once. I went in with severe heartburn issues that were causing me to lose sleep...the doctor gave me a prescription for some sleeping pills. Not exactly the problem I was most concerned about. I then saw my GP and he diagnosed me with GERD. So, basically, the time in the walk-in clinic was completely wasted... So you think you'll be seen immediately in the ER? With heartburn? Yes, and I was....although it was about 1:00 AM at the time, so the ER was my only choice. And let me tell you, if the doctors didn't tell me it was heartburn, I would have sworn it was a much more serious issue. It was less like burn and more like pain/palpitation feeling.
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