djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on May 13, 2012 0:01:05 GMT -5
being late to the game is not always the worst thing. a good example is digital TV. not investing billions in the first round of that technology worked out very well for the US, and badly for Japan. ditto for VHS. our technology didn't work, and Japan's did. i am sure that, if we really cared about it, we could devise the best universal healthcare system on earth. but we are lacking the caring part at the official level.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on May 13, 2012 0:04:09 GMT -5
Other countries w/Universal Care have the same problem that Medicare has. Private payers subsidize them. Price controls increase the cost of drugs and technology for private payers. What happens to drug and technology development if the largest economy in the world also implements these price controls? our drug development is actually nothing to brag about. the system for development is cumbersome, slow, and inefficient. candidly, i think that Cuba has a much better model for drug development. their healthcare system in general is a disaster, btw, so i am not going to extend the compliment beyond this narrow area. my point is that we can look at systems that are considered national treasures and easily replace our national disaster with something better. but we have to WANT to do that.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on May 13, 2012 0:24:51 GMT -5
Other countries w/Universal Care have the same problem that Medicare has. Private payers subsidize them. Price controls increase the cost of drugs and technology for private payers. What happens to drug and technology development if the largest economy in the world also implements these price controls? I'd say we need to take a good long look at that problem and brainstorm ways to eliminate it as a problem and/or morph it into a benefit. If we do it right, we can accomplish a great deal. If we just say it can't be done ... well, it won't be. you know what bugs me, mmhmm? we use to think we could take on any challenge- but when we talk about UHC, the concensus opinion is that, for some reason, this one is too much for us. i say NONSENSE to that. if we can take a nation of farmers, and build the largest middle class on Earth, the only surviving superpower, and six missions to the moon- we can do this. we just need to find that can do spirit that got us where we are.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on May 13, 2012 1:21:10 GMT -5
Of course we can do it. We can do almost anything we set our minds, hearts, and spirits to do. We're stopped only by our reluctance to quit the bitchin' and try!
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Post by Deleted on May 13, 2012 1:26:14 GMT -5
I don't UHC is going to work in this country. Because everybody cannot have everything anyway they want it. And, politicians are unwilling to draw lines in the sand. Having catastrophic coverage is one thing. Having everything under the sun be covered is another. And, with so many special interests and bellowing, i just do not think it can be done here. 50 yrs ago, yes. Now, there will be so many exemptions and strings attatched that it will be unreal.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on May 13, 2012 9:08:08 GMT -5
I've never seen anything worthwhile accomplished by saying "It can't work!" If you don't try, and try, and try again, you certainly won't succeed.
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Post by Deleted on May 13, 2012 10:07:03 GMT -5
mmhmm--We haven't tried anything yet. What's wrong with trying to find a way to make private industry work before even considering letting the gov't take over?
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on May 13, 2012 10:17:06 GMT -5
I don't UHC is going to work in this country. Because everybody cannot have everything anyway they want it. i see. so, because we have regressed into a nation of spoiled children, we can't have something that we all fundamentally need. how incredibly disappointing.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on May 13, 2012 10:18:42 GMT -5
mmhmm--We haven't tried anything yet. What's wrong with trying to find a way to make private industry work before even considering letting the gov't take over? huh? when has private industry NOT run healthcare? one other thing, ib- the BEST systems are DUAL SYSTEMS. for quick delivery, you have a costly private platform. for slow, cheap preventative care, you have the public system. the two work in consort. everyone has their cake. wth is wrong with that? ?
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Post by djAdvocate on May 13, 2012 10:19:55 GMT -5
I've never seen anything worthwhile accomplished by saying "It can't work!" If you don't try, and try, and try again, you certainly won't succeed.
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Post by Value Buy on May 13, 2012 10:43:14 GMT -5
www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-global-health-reform-20120512,0,4695600.story terrific story on how and why countries are pushing for universal healthcare. interestingly, it is done for sound economic reasons, not just because it is something people want. we used to lead. now we follow. sad. Chinese leaders were concerned their citizens were saving excessively because there was no system to protect them if they got seriously ill, said Yanzhong Huang, director of the Center for Global Health Studies at Seton Hall University. The high savings rate was restraining domestic demand for consumer items, making the economy overly dependent on selling goods abroad.
In Mexico, political leaders were alarmed to see that poor families were often forced to pull a child out of school or to give up productive assets such as livestock or equipment to pay medical bills, said Frenk, the former health minister. I find it interesting you chose China and Mexico as examples of healthcare, to quote from the article. China- a one child family decree, or else. Abortion a must, not a choice. Coal spewing electrical plants, and a lot of lead contamination for the people across the country. Mexico-export our poor northward so they get free Universal healthcare at the Emergency room. Not exactly a "best practice" example, imo.
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Post by formerexpat on May 13, 2012 10:47:15 GMT -5
Public spending makes up about 50% of the total spending in the US. The governments reach in the system is so much that nothing productive can be done to save it.
We could create a great system but the government doesn't want that. They want to control your body. You're much more reliant on them when they hold the key to your health.
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Post by workpublic on May 13, 2012 10:47:36 GMT -5
which countries with 350 million + people where over 25% are obese(that's the real HC cost riser, not smoking)have UHC ?
how's it working?
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Post by djAdvocate on May 13, 2012 10:57:08 GMT -5
Public spending makes up about 50% of the total spending in the US. i understand, but the industry itself is private, right? the only exception is the VA hospital system.
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Post by workpublic on May 13, 2012 10:58:34 GMT -5
the only exception is the VA hospital system.
one of the most politically corrupt govt systems we have.
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Post by djAdvocate on May 13, 2012 10:59:31 GMT -5
We could create a great system but the government doesn't want that. They want to control your body. You're much more reliant on them when they hold the key to your health. pardon me, but that suspicion sounds unrealistic and paranoid. we are far too anti-statist to ever allow anything approaching that to happen. it is more likely that we will adopt something closer to what most other countries have (which is also nowhere near body snatching).
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Post by djAdvocate on May 13, 2012 11:03:01 GMT -5
the only exception is the VA hospital system. one of the most politically corrupt govt systems we have. if you say so. my point is that there is actually nothing on the table to expand that system.
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Post by djAdvocate on May 13, 2012 11:05:24 GMT -5
www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-global-health-reform-20120512,0,4695600.story terrific story on how and why countries are pushing for universal healthcare. interestingly, it is done for sound economic reasons, not just because it is something people want. we used to lead. now we follow. sad. Chinese leaders were concerned their citizens were saving excessively because there was no system to protect them if they got seriously ill, said Yanzhong Huang, director of the Center for Global Health Studies at Seton Hall University. The high savings rate was restraining domestic demand for consumer items, making the economy overly dependent on selling goods abroad.
In Mexico, political leaders were alarmed to see that poor families were often forced to pull a child out of school or to give up productive assets such as livestock or equipment to pay medical bills, said Frenk, the former health minister. I find it interesting you chose China and Mexico as examples of healthcare, to quote from the article. they were the first countries mentioned. it was a completely random choice, VB. edit: i personally thought the Thai example was more interesting.
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Post by Deleted on May 13, 2012 11:10:00 GMT -5
"huh? when has private industry NOT run healthcare?"
I said we have not tried to fix it. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Public spending makes up about 50% of the total spending in the US."
And that doesn't even count the extent to which private payers subsidize the public programs that don't pay enough for doctors to even cover their costs. I'd be willing to bet it's at least 60% or more when you count that.
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Post by djAdvocate on May 13, 2012 11:21:03 GMT -5
"huh? when has private industry NOT run healthcare?" I said we have not tried to fix it. have i told you about the ACA? it is this piece of legislation that was passed a couple of years ago....
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Post by Deleted on May 13, 2012 12:21:30 GMT -5
LOL. Such a comedian. Yes. The legislation that doesn't really fix much and might be unconstitutional. If people could put their egos aside and simply sit down and do an honest root-cause-failure analysis or some other such process, we could probably find solutions in months, if not weeks.
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Post by handyman2 on May 13, 2012 13:02:11 GMT -5
Having worked most of my adult life working in hospitals I can say that the idea that VA are not expanding and corrupt is patentlt wrong. We are updating capabilities all the time. Also it is not the only non profit hospitals out there. How about the sponsered childrens hospitals"? how about the military hospitals that are seperate from the VA. By the way, remember the old TV show the six million dollar man? Well a lot of that type of rebuilding of the human body is being done at our military hospitals. Where has all this space age technology been developed right here in the US. Our hospitals are up grading to the latest technologies all the time. true it costs a lot of money but we are by and far away ahead of other industrialized countries. The idea we are slipping behind other countries I challange anyone to name the countries. If that were true why are so many people with funds that can afford it come here to get complex surgery done?
True this country and many others are facing a cost issue of providing healthcare to all citizens. Keeping up with the medical advancements and challanges are tremndously expensive. It requires millions of man hours.
The whole crux of the problem is for universial health care to work means that all must contribute something to the cost. This is the challange all countries face. Solve that one and the roadblock to UHC is solved. It will not work on a 60/40 basis.
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Post by weltschmerz on May 13, 2012 13:23:11 GMT -5
I don't UHC is going to work in this country. Because everybody cannot have everything anyway they want it. ----------------- Evidently, you don't know a whole lot about UHC. Under UHC, everybody CANNOT have everything any way they want it.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on May 13, 2012 15:46:12 GMT -5
LOL. Such a comedian. Yes. The legislation that doesn't really fix much and might be unconstitutional. hey, you said "try", not me! but seriously, there are a LOT of fixes in this legislation. if you don't think so, you should adjust your perspective a bit. the pre-existing condition clause is huge. college age inclusion is big. portability is huge. i could name probably 10-15 more things that are vital in the ACA. people really should think about losing all of that before they run the whole thing through the shredder.If people could put their egos aside and simply sit down and do an honest root-cause-failure analysis or some other such process, we could probably find solutions in months, if not weeks. we had a whole frigging year, ib. it is the first time this has been SERIOUSLY considered in half a century. there is no way it will happen in a couple of weeks. and the ACA is quite possibly a blueprint for the result, like it or not.
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Post by djAdvocate on May 13, 2012 15:47:23 GMT -5
Having worked most of my adult life working in hospitals I can say that the idea that VA are not expanding and corrupt is patentlt wrong. i never claimed that. i only claimed that doing so was NOT part of the ACA. sorry if you misunderstood me.
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Post by djAdvocate on May 13, 2012 15:49:38 GMT -5
True this country and many others are facing a cost issue of providing healthcare to all citizens. Keeping up with the medical advancements and challanges are tremndously expensive. It requires millions of man hours. we really need to stop floating this canard. having a publicly funded option to private health insurance will not change medical research one iota, UNLESS we make all health insurance public (there is no plan i have ever seen that was seriously considered here in the US that would do that).
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Post by formerexpat on May 13, 2012 16:17:30 GMT -5
While this quote was specifically said for a country and their money supply, it seems appropriate to say it here:
"Permit me to issue and control the money of the nation and I care not who makes its laws." - Mayer Rothschild
Same concept with the healthcare system. While on the face of it, you may believe the system itself is private, it is in no way in control of its destiny and fate because it is infected by the US government.
Kind of like HIV/AIDS and an immune system.
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Post by formerexpat on May 13, 2012 16:26:37 GMT -5
You must be joking, right? This is how it will go - step by step:
1) the public option would become available 2) the public option would be under priced and propped up by various other public funds or even partially by the public sector [read Medicare/caid] 3) the general public will not understand this and move to the subsidized system where the total expenses are masked 4) there will be about 15-20% of the general public [i.e. the wealthiest 15-20%] that will keep their private healthcare and as the system transforms and those people will receive better care than those on the public option.
Everything will suffer for the 80-85%; probably over a some what long period of time - say a generation. Access to care, quality of care and all the things you read about for UHC countries. But it will be worse because we have 320-350 million people with over 70 million of them being obese [with projections higher in the future]. It will be one, huge cluster F that the government will continue to try to blame on the private sector despite their decreasing involvement in our system [just like over the past 45 years].
But who cares what the next generation will have to live with, you're going to get yours and get out of here.
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Post by djAdvocate on May 13, 2012 16:32:46 GMT -5
You must be joking, right? no, i am totally 100% serious. we don't seem to be communicating too well, and this is getting far to personal fep. i am serious about almost everything i post here, and i can absolutely back it up, but i have to leave for band practice in 8 mins, so i can't take the time today. maybe some other time when you are in a better mood, i will try again.
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Post by djAdvocate on May 13, 2012 16:36:29 GMT -5
Everything will suffer for the 80-85%; probably over a some what long period of time - say a generation. Access to care, quality of care and all the things you read about for UHC countries. But it will be worse because we have 320-350 million people with over 70 million of them being obese [with projections higher in the future]. It will be one, huge cluster F that the government will continue to try to blame on the private sector despite their decreasing involvement in our system [just like over the past 45 years]. But who cares what the next generation will have to live with, you're going to get yours and get out of here. i absolutely care about the next generation. framing it this way is disingenuous, fep. but since we are clearly motivated by the same basic humanitarian impulses, there is little left to discuss. i fervently disagree that the healthcare available here is of higher quality than, say France- but i have to leave in 5 mins, so i can't spend the time backing that up right now. i think the WHO has done an analysis on this, however, and the ONLY place that the US comes out on top is delivery. the question then becomes: is better delivery worth 2x the price? and the answer is pretty clearly NO, if you care about the overall health of a nation (as you apparently do).
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