AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
Distinguished Associate
Joined: Dec 21, 2010 11:59:07 GMT -5
Posts: 31,709
Favorite Drink: Sweetwater 420
|
Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Feb 1, 2012 14:05:57 GMT -5
|
|
EVT1
Junior Associate
Joined: Dec 30, 2010 16:22:42 GMT -5
Posts: 8,596
|
Post by EVT1 on Feb 1, 2012 14:54:33 GMT -5
Enojoy your lower wages and benefits . Must be a red state.
|
|
|
Post by Savoir Faire-Demogague in NJ on Feb 1, 2012 15:00:27 GMT -5
Enojoy your lower wages and benefits . Must be a red state.
Evidence please.
The only people getting rich in union states are union bosses. The losers are the tax payers. All the states with overwhelming union control like NY, NJ, CA, IL, the middle class is getting pounded.
Incidentally, the main purpose of a union is to limit employment, thus creating unemployment.
|
|
cme1201
Junior Associate
Tennis Elbow, Jock Itch, and Athletes Foot, every man has a sports life!
Joined: Apr 6, 2011 13:55:07 GMT -5
Posts: 5,503
|
Post by cme1201 on Feb 1, 2012 15:06:34 GMT -5
Enojoy your lower wages and benefits . Must be a red state. Red state, fixed in your lexicon from 2000 and can't let it go huh? Amazing that the map colors were not a big deal until the time of Bush jr. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_states_and_blue_states
|
|
❤ mollymouser ❤
Senior Associate
Sarcasm is my Superpower
Crazy Cat Lady
Joined: Dec 18, 2010 16:09:58 GMT -5
Posts: 12,858
Today's Mood: Gen X ... so I'm sarcastic and annoyed
Location: Central California
Favorite Drink: Diet Mountain Dew
|
Post by ❤ mollymouser ❤ on Feb 1, 2012 15:19:27 GMT -5
I didn't realize that there were 23 "right to work" states. Interesting.
|
|
AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
Distinguished Associate
Joined: Dec 21, 2010 11:59:07 GMT -5
Posts: 31,709
Favorite Drink: Sweetwater 420
|
Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Feb 1, 2012 15:25:11 GMT -5
Enojoy your lower wages and benefits . Must be a red state. Obama carried Indiana, and the former governor, Evan Bayh is a Democrat. It's mostly red, but can be a swing state. Lower wages and benefits sure beats NO wages and benefits. Just ask anyone from Detroit. Enjoy freedom of association. You may join the union if you wish, but you cannot be forced to join the union or forced to pay union dues out of your paycheck as a condition of employment. If unions cannot sell their proposition in the market place, they shouldn't have members.
|
|
AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
Distinguished Associate
Joined: Dec 21, 2010 11:59:07 GMT -5
Posts: 31,709
Favorite Drink: Sweetwater 420
|
Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Feb 1, 2012 15:26:44 GMT -5
I didn't realize that there were 23 "right to work" states. Interesting. Yes, and their economic performance and unemployment numbers beat the other 35 states (not counting the Moon).
|
|
|
Post by Savoir Faire-Demogague in NJ on Feb 1, 2012 15:28:23 GMT -5
Actually, no that is not true, but I get your point. Unions limit who can do what, when and where; and also who can get into the union in order to work.
|
|
EVT1
Junior Associate
Joined: Dec 30, 2010 16:22:42 GMT -5
Posts: 8,596
|
Post by EVT1 on Feb 1, 2012 15:28:48 GMT -5
Well- there isn't really a state where you don't have a right to work- it is just that in some places where unions have bargained for fair contracts they would like an employee to pay the dues to get the benefit of the contract.
|
|
|
Post by Savoir Faire-Demogague in NJ on Feb 1, 2012 15:35:17 GMT -5
Enojoy your lower wages and benefits . Must be a red state. Evidence please. The only people getting rich in union states are union bosses. The losers are the tax payers. All the states with overwhelming union control like NY, NJ, CA, IL, the middle class is getting pounded. Incidentally, the main purpose of a union is to limit employment, thus creating unemployment. SF. Related topic: Did you read this? www.sacbee.com/2012/01/26/4215734/the-state-worker-california-settles.htmlConfusing article!!! LOL
|
|
|
Post by Savoir Faire-Demogague in NJ on Feb 1, 2012 15:37:13 GMT -5
That they do, but they do it to protect jobs. In the short term this can even add jobs, as rather than have one guy who puts in lightbulbs and sweeps, you have one guy who does one, and another who does the other. Simplistic example, but pertinent.
Just adds unnecessary costs, which are passed along to the taxpayer and consumers.
Broadway tickets cost $110 to $400 a seat due mainly to unions.
|
|
EVT1
Junior Associate
Joined: Dec 30, 2010 16:22:42 GMT -5
Posts: 8,596
|
Post by EVT1 on Feb 1, 2012 15:39:21 GMT -5
I didn't realize that there were 23 "right to work" states. Interesting. Yes, and their economic performance and unemployment numbers beat the other 35 states (not counting the Moon). Based on more data from your ass? Being a right to work state or not doesn't make much difference in the big picture.
|
|
frep
Established Member
Joined: Dec 24, 2010 6:44:34 GMT -5
Posts: 386
|
Post by frep on Feb 1, 2012 15:40:46 GMT -5
Unions limit who can do what, when and where; and also who can get into the union in order to work. That they do, but they do it to protect jobs. In the short term this can even add jobs, as rather than have one guy who puts in lightbulbs and sweeps, you have one guy who does one, and another who does the other. Simplistic example, but pertinent. Yep, then simplistically when a light goes out you can halt all other jobs until the approved union light changer is available to change the light and if anyone else takes the 5 minutes to do it, they'll get in trouble for stealing a union job.
|
|
workpublic
Junior Associate
Catch and release please
Joined: Dec 30, 2010 14:01:48 GMT -5
Posts: 5,551
Favorite Drink: Heineken
|
Post by workpublic on Feb 1, 2012 15:49:10 GMT -5
Their purpose is to advance the economic and social status of the workers.
only they aren't equal opportunity employers. you have to be related or connected to get into most unions. so they do keep the overall employee base out of work, when they control the hiring.
|
|
handyman2
Senior Member
Joined: Dec 29, 2010 23:56:33 GMT -5
Posts: 3,087
|
Post by handyman2 on Feb 1, 2012 15:57:23 GMT -5
Been to conventions in New York, Chicago and Dallas. the only thing i could carry was my brief case. They set all the displays according to my instructions and I must say they did a good quick job. I still do contract work and I prefer to work on jobs where their are union trained workers. I have a lot fewer issues with installing the equipment. If there is a problem the Steward is right on it. Of course there is always several cases of beer sitting on the back of my truck. No bribe I just ask the steward to have the guys unload my truck before they leave. works every time.
|
|
floridayankee
Junior Associate
If You Don't Stand Behind Our Troops, Feel Free to Stand in Front of Them.
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 14:56:05 GMT -5
Posts: 7,461
|
Post by floridayankee on Feb 1, 2012 15:58:37 GMT -5
I didn't realize that there were 23 "right to work" states. Interesting. We're one of them. Both DW and I are doing quite well despite our "lower wages and benefits". We must be a red state."
|
|
floridayankee
Junior Associate
If You Don't Stand Behind Our Troops, Feel Free to Stand in Front of Them.
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 14:56:05 GMT -5
Posts: 7,461
|
Post by floridayankee on Feb 1, 2012 16:02:16 GMT -5
Yep, then simplistically when a light goes out you can halt all other jobs until the approved union light changer is available to change the light and if anyone else takes the 5 minutes to do it, they'll get in trouble for stealing a union job. And if the union guy does it in under an hour, all work will be halted and an investigation opened to make sure he didn't violate any safety or union protocols in his "rush" to get the job done so quickly. Their purpose is to advance the economic and social status of the workers. And all this time, I thought that it was my job to advance my social and economic status.
|
|
EVT1
Junior Associate
Joined: Dec 30, 2010 16:22:42 GMT -5
Posts: 8,596
|
Post by EVT1 on Feb 1, 2012 16:02:58 GMT -5
No reason you can't- most jobs are non union no matter what state you live in.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: May 19, 2024 9:13:01 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 1, 2012 16:11:00 GMT -5
Unions had their place and time
They are the reason for most of the safety standards in today's work place
But it is not the 1930's anymore
Unions are not really needed in MOST industries
And rules saying you MUST be a member to work in a place are archaic at best
|
|
handyman2
Senior Member
Joined: Dec 29, 2010 23:56:33 GMT -5
Posts: 3,087
|
Post by handyman2 on Feb 1, 2012 16:31:47 GMT -5
I agree with the right to work laws in states. I do prefer to work with unions on construction jobs. The quality is better I have found over the years. There are fewer redo's on the job that cost money and time.
|
|
|
Post by Savoir Faire-Demogague in NJ on Feb 1, 2012 19:28:54 GMT -5
mjperry.blogspot.com/2012/02/indiana-is-rust-belts-first-right-to.htmlPercentage Change, 2000 to 2010 Right-to-Work Forced Union States States Private Employment 10.30% 1.90% Private Sector Compensation 11.10% 0.70% Real GDP per Capita 9.70% 7.89% Source: BEA USA Today -- "Indiana's controversial right-to-work bill became Indiana's law Wednesday. The state Senate voted 28-22 Wednesday to pass the labor union bill as thousands of protesters packed Statehouse hallways shouting their disapproval. Thousands more lined up outside waiting to get in. Gov. Mitch Daniels signed the "right to work" bill shortly thereafter without ceremony, making Indiana the 23rd state in the nation with the law. Sen. Carlin Yoder, the Middlebury Republican who is the chief sponsor of the bill in the Senate, said for him "this bill is all about jobs." Unions, he said, will thrive despite it. And he said he apologized for all the "issues" lawmakers had to struggle with on it, an apparent reference to the constant protests against the bill. "But the fact is this bill is worth it for Hoosiers who desperately need jobs," he said. Senate Minority Leader Vi Simpson, D-Ellettsville, disputed that, saying "there is no empirical evidence … that right to work creates one job." "It's a downward spiral to lower wages and fewer benefits," she said. "Was it worth it?" she repeatedly asked, saying they had pushed a divisive bill based on "myth and anecdote" and not fact." MP: Some facts appear in the table above, showing the differences in some key economic variables between right-to-work states and forced unionism states in the ten-year period between 2000 and 2010 based on BEA data available here. Here's a summary: 1. Private employment in right-to-work states grew by 10% between 2000 and 2010, or more than five times the 1.9% private job growth in forced union states. 2. In the period between 2000 and 2007 before the recession started, almost 8 million jobs were created in right-to-work states compared to fewer than 6 million new jobs in forced union states, even though forced union states outnumber right-to-work states 28 to 22 and have populations and labor forces that are 65% greater than right-to-work states. 3. Total private sector compensation grew more 11% in right-to-work states in the 2000s, compared to only 0.70% in forced union states. 4. Real per-capita GDP increased 9.7% between 2000 and 2010 in right-to-work states, compared to 7.89% in forced unionism states. Myth and anecdote?
|
|
dancinmama
Senior Associate
LIVIN' THE DREAM!!
Joined: Dec 18, 2010 20:49:45 GMT -5
Posts: 10,659
|
Post by dancinmama on Feb 1, 2012 19:45:27 GMT -5
Actually, no that is not true, but I get your point. Unions limit who can do what, when and where; and also who can get into the union in order to work. And it can get very expensive. Here is a real life example. The Fortune 500 company that DH works for employs thousands of union techs. The union required that overtime be evenly distributed among the workers and be given to "who was next on the list" even if they were not the most qualified for the job. Sometimes the job involved equipment that was worth millions of dollars and DH's company wanted the "best tech for the job". There were many times they paid what they called "rocking chair money". They'd pay the person at the top of the list AND the person they actually felt they could entrust to do the job the best. The person at the top of the list got paid overtime at union wages for doing nothing!! What a waste of money!!
|
|
gavinsnana
Senior Member
If we forget we are One Nation Under God, then we are a Nation gone under. Ronald Reagan
Joined: Oct 13, 2011 11:02:40 GMT -5
Posts: 3,201
|
Post by gavinsnana on Feb 1, 2012 19:49:56 GMT -5
I didn't realize that there were 23 "right to work" states. Interesting. Yes, and their economic performance and unemployment numbers beat the other 35 states (not counting the Moon). Texas is one of them. The wages and cost of living for many jobs is pretty good. there is work here in Texas, people are hiring.. and Businesses are moving here.
|
|
EVT1
Junior Associate
Joined: Dec 30, 2010 16:22:42 GMT -5
Posts: 8,596
|
Post by EVT1 on Feb 1, 2012 19:58:19 GMT -5
Lots of bullshit numbers and speculation- check back in a year and see how much of a difference this bill makes- I am betting none.
|
|
gavinsnana
Senior Member
If we forget we are One Nation Under God, then we are a Nation gone under. Ronald Reagan
Joined: Oct 13, 2011 11:02:40 GMT -5
Posts: 3,201
|
Post by gavinsnana on Feb 1, 2012 20:53:54 GMT -5
"Because California is not a Right to Work state, employees can be forced to pay union dues and fees as a condition of employment. However, employees cannot be legally compelled to join a union against their will and cannot be compelled to pay union dues used for union politics and member-only events." They are still forced to pay money, so what difference does it make in how it's spent? Unions would not look at employees in a good light if they refused to join the union. Years ago, I was working for a Company that had unions. I refused to join.. they hassled me about it daily.
|
|
AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
Distinguished Associate
Joined: Dec 21, 2010 11:59:07 GMT -5
Posts: 31,709
Favorite Drink: Sweetwater 420
|
Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Feb 1, 2012 22:15:49 GMT -5
mjperry.blogspot.com/2012/02/indiana-is-rust-belts-first-right-to.htmlPercentage Change, 2000 to 2010 Right-to-Work Forced Union States States Private Employment 10.30% 1.90% Private Sector Compensation 11.10% 0.70% Real GDP per Capita 9.70% 7.89% Source: BEA USA Today -- "Indiana's controversial right-to-work bill became Indiana's law Wednesday. The state Senate voted 28-22 Wednesday to pass the labor union bill as thousands of protesters packed Statehouse hallways shouting their disapproval. Thousands more lined up outside waiting to get in. Gov. Mitch Daniels signed the "right to work" bill shortly thereafter without ceremony, making Indiana the 23rd state in the nation with the law. Sen. Carlin Yoder, the Middlebury Republican who is the chief sponsor of the bill in the Senate, said for him "this bill is all about jobs." Unions, he said, will thrive despite it. And he said he apologized for all the "issues" lawmakers had to struggle with on it, an apparent reference to the constant protests against the bill. "But the fact is this bill is worth it for Hoosiers who desperately need jobs," he said. Senate Minority Leader Vi Simpson, D-Ellettsville, disputed that, saying "there is no empirical evidence … that right to work creates one job." "It's a downward spiral to lower wages and fewer benefits," she said. "Was it worth it?" she repeatedly asked, saying they had pushed a divisive bill based on "myth and anecdote" and not fact." MP: Some facts appear in the table above, showing the differences in some key economic variables between right-to-work states and forced unionism states in the ten-year period between 2000 and 2010 based on BEA data available here. Here's a summary: 1. Private employment in right-to-work states grew by 10% between 2000 and 2010, or more than five times the 1.9% private job growth in forced union states. 2. In the period between 2000 and 2007 before the recession started, almost 8 million jobs were created in right-to-work states compared to fewer than 6 million new jobs in forced union states, even though forced union states outnumber right-to-work states 28 to 22 and have populations and labor forces that are 65% greater than right-to-work states. 3. Total private sector compensation grew more 11% in right-to-work states in the 2000s, compared to only 0.70% in forced union states. 4. Real per-capita GDP increased 9.7% between 2000 and 2010 in right-to-work states, compared to 7.89% in forced unionism states. Myth and anecdote? Oh, well sure- if you're going to confuse the wishy washy emotional case with cold hard facts and logic...
|
|
dumdeedoe
Familiar Member
Joined: Jan 3, 2011 7:22:04 GMT -5
Posts: 755
|
Post by dumdeedoe on Feb 1, 2012 22:26:06 GMT -5
|
|
AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
Distinguished Associate
Joined: Dec 21, 2010 11:59:07 GMT -5
Posts: 31,709
Favorite Drink: Sweetwater 420
|
Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Feb 2, 2012 8:59:09 GMT -5
Indiana is dragged down by Lake County- which is basically a suburb of Chicago. Fact of life: if you 'give' Lake County to IL, IL unemployment goes up .08% and Indiana unemployment drops 1.3%-- I can't find the article where I read that, but I'm looking.
|
|
AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
Distinguished Associate
Joined: Dec 21, 2010 11:59:07 GMT -5
Posts: 31,709
Favorite Drink: Sweetwater 420
|
Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Feb 2, 2012 9:00:18 GMT -5
"Because California is not a Right to Work state, employees can be forced to pay union dues and fees as a condition of employment. However, employees cannot be legally compelled to join a union against their will and cannot be compelled to pay union dues used for union politics and member-only events." They are still forced to pay money, so what difference does it make in how it's spent? Unions would not look at employees in a good light if they refused to join the union. Years ago, I was working for a Company that had unions. I refused to join.. they hassled me about it daily. Ah, so the unions bullied you? Maybe we can get some "anti-bullying" legislation passed to prevent unions from offending us?
|
|
|
Post by Savoir Faire-Demogague in NJ on Feb 2, 2012 9:16:39 GMT -5
Since many benefits are paid through union welfare funds and since non-union employees often benefit from union collective bargaining, it is understandable that the union doesn't want to give others a "free ride." Otherwise, no one would pay for what they could have for free and the union would die. Half the country is getting a free ride.
|
|