AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Feb 3, 2012 11:16:21 GMT -5
Yes I do see it happening and consider it very unfortunate that that we are selling our birth right for porridge (or our children's future for our high standard of living today) all because we have allowed our federal government to grow, control and be involved in areas that have created wide spread dependency while selling their influence to the highest bidder. We can longer be considered a capitalist society we have definitely moved to something other then that regardless what one wants to call it. I do worry about our kids and grandkids, who have been raised with so much and will now have to live with less. We should be so proud. We don't have "so much" right now. I actually feel bad my kids have "so much" that really isn't anything. My memories growing up center primarily around PEOPLE I grew up with- family and friends. I actually sometimes lament that my kids get so excited about "stuff". My primary drive for a wealthy financial foundation isn't to pile up a bunch of stuff, but to make money so irrelevant to our lives that we can spend our time together. It's TIME I'm after- it's freedom that drives me. And in the end if all this "stuff" goes away, I actually have a lot of faith in people. If this materialistic marvel should all dry up and go away-- I think people like George Soros are going to be deeply disappointed if they expect everything to descend into chaos. I take Katrina, 9.11.01, Joplin, Missouri as just a few examples of Americans coming together-- and we will come together. We have enjoyed better than 200 years of prosperity, but we never relied on it. I look around now and I see the excess of the last several decades and what I observe is akin to a hangover. I think people are looking for something else. Now, in my own belief system- I think they're looking for God. And no matter what you believe I think what I see is a people awakening from a materialistic binge and looking to fill the spiritual void. I see conflict everywhere, I see broken families, I see constant turmoil-- and the more everything around us changes, the more people will be looking for something that doesn't. As circumstances change, and the tides of this world ebb and flow- people are looking for principles, for truth that doesn't change. They're looking for a Rock. A safe harbor in the middle of a storm.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Feb 3, 2012 11:22:55 GMT -5
I don't know what the big hubbabloo is...
The vast majority of private sector jobs aren't union anyway, so I doubt right to work will change much.
Anyway, I support right to work laws. I believe in freedom and personal liberty. Being forced to pay union dues to have a job isn't either of those things. However, that also means I support unions if enough people want to get together an unionize.
In the federal government, you're not required to join your respective union, and many choose not too. It works out fine. When
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rockon
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Post by rockon on Feb 3, 2012 11:24:48 GMT -5
"Why that wild and crazy guy, Lenin. A real winner, him,"
Yea I'm pretty sure Lenin said much worse things about capitalism. Some of it probably true but his preferred form of government wasn't without fault either was it?
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Post by Savoir Faire-Demogague in NJ on Feb 3, 2012 11:27:49 GMT -5
"Why that wild and crazy guy, Lenin. A real winner, him," Yea I'm pretty sure Lenin said much worse things about capitalism. Some of it probably true but his preferred form of government wasn't without fault either was it? How many 10s of millions did Lenin kill?
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rockon
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Post by rockon on Feb 3, 2012 11:31:40 GMT -5
I'm with you there. Just hope the reality of whats happening hits the majority in time.
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formerroomate99
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Post by formerroomate99 on Feb 3, 2012 12:12:19 GMT -5
Why do you think having this country carry the water of the Chinese communists sickens me so? Do you think that mentality has gone? The Chinese are laughing up their sleeves. Yes, and the pro-union folks are just as willing to buy Chinese stuff as the rest of us capitalistic scumbags. That's the really sad part.
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Post by Savoir Faire-Demogague in NJ on Feb 3, 2012 12:14:19 GMT -5
How many 10s of millions did Lenin kill? Are you maybe thinking of Stalin? Probably... I get the "ins" mixed up... I think I meant how many 100s of milliosn did he subject to poverty stricken lives.
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Post by Savoir Faire-Demogague in NJ on Feb 3, 2012 12:16:06 GMT -5
Yes, and the pro-union folks are just as willing to buy Chinese stuff as the rest of us capitalistic scumbags. That's the really sad part.
Of course, we here in the US buy crap made in China, while they but high end goods made in the US, like electronic medical equipment and devices...not to mention our automobiles.
That seems like a good trade.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Feb 3, 2012 13:16:35 GMT -5
Everyone seems so concerned about a right to work state causing wages to go down. Isn't that something we are going to have to suck up in order to get businesses back up and running? We can't compete with the world and not expect to live with lower wages, can we? Even assuming extorting higher wages from a business won't kill jobs outright, and won't end up driving jobs overseas-- it does, without a doubt, drive up prices. So, if you get a raise- and you keep your job, but the price of everything you buy goes up, did you really get a raise? So, the best case scenario that could come of extorting higher wages is nothing really changes. Of course, more likely- you lose your job altogether. I've never understood the willful blindness of the left on this issue. They are supposed to defend the lower income and middle class folks.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Feb 3, 2012 13:28:47 GMT -5
Actually, I think we will have to consider some amount of protectionism in this country. And yes, it will drive up prices, but if it improves balance of trade sufficiently, we may have little choice. Yeah- we need a Smoot Hawley Tariff on top of everything else we're facing. A trade war should improve things...
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handyman2
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Post by handyman2 on Feb 3, 2012 15:17:23 GMT -5
Being non-union does not automatically mean wages will go down. Companies that produce quality equipment want the top of the line employees and will pay a good salary to get them. They just don't want the union costs as part of doing business.
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rockon
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Post by rockon on Feb 3, 2012 17:42:26 GMT -5
So really..... Indiana is now a right to work and a right to unionize state. That seems fair to me. The title of this thread seems a bit deceiving. Why is the right to work without paying for third party representation considered anti union? You want the right to join a union and I want the right to not join. Now we should both be happy.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Feb 3, 2012 17:45:20 GMT -5
So really..... Indiana is now a right to work and a right to unionize state. That seems fair to me. The title of this thread seems a bit deceiving. Why is the right to work without paying for third party representation considered anti union? You want the right to join a union and I want the right to not join. Now we should both be happy. That would make sense if we didn't have an ideological movement and a political party in this country that completely depends upon coercion to promote and prop itself up.
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rockon
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Post by rockon on Feb 3, 2012 18:05:53 GMT -5
Is stalking horse the lefts term for slippery slope? This leaves the union the option to incur any cost they choose to incur and leaves the individual the right to not incur cost for representation if one chooses not too. Funny how the lefts "right to choose" gets a little hard to follow at times.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Feb 3, 2012 18:13:38 GMT -5
Apparantly the left thinks you should have the right to choose to have an abortion or not, but not the right to not pay union dues if you don't want to.
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rockon
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Post by rockon on Feb 3, 2012 18:21:10 GMT -5
First of all your making the assumption that all negotiated contracts provide a benefit. Secondly it is the unions man option to pay not a requirement. Nothing unfair about it compared to forcing people to pay for representation who don't want to our can't afford to. They may need the money to cover their medical bills.
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rockon
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Post by rockon on Feb 3, 2012 18:36:46 GMT -5
If unionization could guarantee better salaries everyone would be unionized. Salaries of both union and no union workers have in fact plummeted and will likely continue as we compete with more foreign countries for our jobs. Unions were started for good reasons and I personally have no problem with anyone who chooses to pay for representation today but our labor laws and regulations have really negated the necessity for most people.
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rockon
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Post by rockon on Feb 3, 2012 18:39:25 GMT -5
Also just for the record unions do not "provide benefits" unless they first take the money from their members to pay for the benefit.
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rockon
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Post by rockon on Feb 3, 2012 18:56:47 GMT -5
But you can buy things as a group without paying union dues...
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rockon
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Post by rockon on Feb 3, 2012 18:59:02 GMT -5
I'm not arguing if there is or is not a benefit just that one deserves the right to choose...
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rockon
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Post by rockon on Feb 3, 2012 18:59:55 GMT -5
You can form a group without being in a union...
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rockon
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Post by rockon on Feb 3, 2012 19:07:24 GMT -5
You've obviously convinced yourself so I would suggest you stay unionized while the majority it seems to be moving away from paying a bunch of executives to live of their dues.
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moon/Laura
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Post by moon/Laura on Feb 3, 2012 19:10:08 GMT -5
By the way, the autocensor is on full alert. I used a term that can mean "crazy" and they changed it to "saltines." No wonder I wonder what the H E double hockeysticks I just typed. Also, by the way, mechanically substituting a brandname like "Saltines" for a generic term, can be grounds for a lawsuit. Companies with brand names don't like them to be used generically. You always, "copy" a document, you never "Xerox." i believe i've seen even generic brands called saltines. refers as much to the type as the brand... the word you tried to use is most often meant as a racial slur.. did you not notice that PBP got a thread locked down immediately for using it?! or you thought it wouldn't apply to you, maybe?
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handyman2
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Post by handyman2 on Feb 3, 2012 19:24:05 GMT -5
I worked for a time for an international company that had a plant in NY. Other plants in right to work states and abroad were non-union. The cold hard fact was that those in the non-union facilities were paid per trade skill just as high as those in a union plant. As a matter of fact the non-union plants had a better benefit package and matching funds program. At the union plant the union handled the insurance plan and retirement program. The union lost a lot of money in the retirement package. The non-union did not. I agree with toughtimes that in the construction industry that the trades are better trained than those non-union sub contractors. Be it Electricians, pipe fitters, drywall, concrete finishers etc. The union shops do a better job. The biggest enemy of unions in the manufactoring industry is robatics not non-union hires. But then the robatics is a hazard to all manufactoring jobs where a machine and one operator replace 10 or 15 workers. This is impacting electronic workers in large numbers in a lot of off shore plants already
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moon/Laura
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Post by moon/Laura on Feb 3, 2012 19:26:04 GMT -5
I'm not surprised that once again, TT, you know everything..
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moon/Laura
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Post by moon/Laura on Feb 3, 2012 19:30:13 GMT -5
yes, it's wiki but..
"A saltine or soda cr*cker is a thin, usually square cracker made from white flour, shortening, yeast, and baking soda, with most varieties lightly sprinkled with coarse salt. It has perforations throughout its surface, to allow steam to escape for uniform rising, and along the edges, as individual cr*ckers are broken from larger sheets during manufacturing. It has a very dry and crisp texture, as it is made with less shortening than varieties such as Ritz cr*ckers. Some familiar brand names of saltine cr*ckers in North America are Christie's Premium Plus (Canada), Nabisco's Premium (U.S.), Sunshine's Krispy (U.S.) and Keebler's Zesta (U.S.). Unsalted tops as well as whole grain saltines can also be found."
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moon/Laura
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Post by moon/Laura on Feb 3, 2012 19:35:22 GMT -5
you know what TT? I don't care..
you are on virtually every thread, everywhere, telling people what's right or wrong.. you have given one poster that i know of ILLEGAL advice yourself on the tax board.. you seriously act like you know it all. there is no subject (according to you) that you don't have extensive experience in.. it's tiresome.
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moon/Laura
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Post by moon/Laura on Feb 3, 2012 19:39:14 GMT -5
When people get the hint that the word that PBP used is not a good choice- and it WAS meant as a slur in his thread - then i will stop censoring it.
and, for the record, i never implied YOU were a bigot.. you just got caught by the filter is all.
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rockon
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Post by rockon on Feb 3, 2012 19:41:51 GMT -5
My experience has seen in both ways. I really don't think a union necessarily makes workers competent or not although union workers seem to have a stigma that seems to follow them that makes many think they are not the hardest working people. I've seen good union workers and bad ones. Same with non unionized employees. Most often management is more responsible for the productivity of the employees which is one of the reason I am very opposed to unions in the public sector.
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rockon
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Post by rockon on Feb 3, 2012 20:03:52 GMT -5
Kind of surprising with that much support and benefit provided by the union that you hired "shoemakers" to renovate your shop.
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