hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Aug 24, 2011 13:50:16 GMT -5
"I'm also positive the best option is to amputate."
Just because YOU are positive, doesn't make it true. Lots of doctors are "positive" and end up being completely wrong. That's why you let the patient decide if he wants a 2nd opinion.
"or do I operate now and trust he'll have some faith in my professional judgment?"
You hire me to work on the foundation of your home. I take a look and let you know I'll need to put 3 piers under the house to keep it stable. You come home to your home completely leveled because in my professional opinion the entire foundation was unsavable so I just had it torn down so you can start from scratch. I could have waited to talk to you about it, but I knew eventually that foundation would crumble completely someday and destroy the entire house, so I really did you a favor. After all, I knew you might not take my advice, and that someday the foundation might cave in and kill you and your entire family. You're ok with that right? And that's just a house, that's not even your body.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Aug 24, 2011 13:51:38 GMT -5
You would be wrong to assume that I have not faced the amputation choice. I have faced that and made a decision too. How is it that you have had or know someone who has had every single ailment ever mentioned on this board? lol, ailment, every crime every committed, every kind of workplace situation, she knows every mobster who ever lived as well as every nefarious character in the country. Some people have trouble separating their real life from what they see on television. My guess is the History channel.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Aug 24, 2011 13:52:43 GMT -5
Do I wake this man up, catheterize him, keep him bedridden in the hospital until he exhausts all hope consulting with other doctors, or do I operate now and trust he'll have some faith in my professional judgment? Anyone who makes the latter choice (which is most likely pretty clearly in violation of the informed consent rules/laws) in our sue happy society is too stupid to be a doctor.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Aug 24, 2011 13:56:23 GMT -5
How is it that you have had or know someone who has had every single ailment ever mentioned on this board? lol, ailment, every crime every committed, every kind of workplace situation, she knows every mobster who ever lived as well as every nefarious character in the country. Some people have trouble separating their real life from what they see on television. My guess is the History channel. I was thinking more along the lines of Cops and Untold Stories of the ER.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Aug 24, 2011 13:57:58 GMT -5
or do I operate now and trust he'll have some faith in my professional judgment
The point is they are not supposed to! That is the whole reason the written consent form exists.
The patient's rights were violated because he was not given the option to decline treatment and he was not provided a consent form to sign nor was his next of kin/POA.
This doctor broke the law, it doesn't matter if he thought it was what was best or not.
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cme1201
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Post by cme1201 on Aug 24, 2011 14:00:40 GMT -5
You would be wrong to assume that I have not faced the amputation choice. I have faced that and made a decision too. Personally, or for a family member? I was faced with making that decision, losing left leg below the knee or keeping it and watching it wither. I decided to keep the leg, here 15 years later It still hurts and is about 1/3 the size of my right, yet I can walk and it supports my weight. The original doctor wanted to amputate the second opinion left the choice up to me, see, that's what this thread is about. Choice.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Aug 24, 2011 14:12:42 GMT -5
"That is why it would be a very high bar for me to assign damages. If anything, I would rather give money where there was some possibility that the money might pay to repair the damage, something I don't see happening here."
So you're more inclined to award damages where the error could be corrected but award no monetary damages where the act was so irreversible that it cannot be corrected?
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Aug 24, 2011 14:14:20 GMT -5
Idealistic to a fault, perhaps. I prefer not to think of faith in human reasonableness as stupidity. Is a man stupid for refusing to believe that Americans are hopelessly unreasonable and litigious? That faith isn't always spent in vain. If it had been me on the operating table, the surgeon would be receiving my praise for saving my life (instead of staring down a malpractice lawsuit). If the chances of a house collapsing were comparable to the chances of metastatic cancer (they aren't) If the rate at which the foundation was crumbling was comparable to the rate at which cancer progresses (it isn't) If not knocking the house down immediately would have serious financial and emotional repercussions (it wouldn't) If the builder's certainty in his conclusions was comparable to an oncologist's certainty in a cancer diagnosis (it would be nowhere near) If the builder had sworn a professional oath to "do no harm" (he didn't) then I could see my way clear to accepting his choice to knock my house down. Assuming, of course, he removed all my furniture and stuff out beforehand.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Aug 24, 2011 14:15:31 GMT -5
I would rather give money where there was some possibility that the money might pay to repair the damage, something I don't see happening here. Wait, what? So even if the doctor clearly broke the law, and clearly caused the patient damage, if it wasn't repairable you wouldn't award damages because oh well, life's a drag sometimes? Again, are you crazy?
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Aug 24, 2011 14:18:52 GMT -5
Is a man stupid for refusing to believe that Americans are hopelessly unreasonable and litigious? Since all evidence points to the contrary the man is either ignorant or a nut. You're right though, stupid is a little harsh. Being uneducated doesn't make somebody stupid.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Aug 24, 2011 14:20:27 GMT -5
He has cancer through and through, so to me he would have to prove that there was some reasonable alternative to having this done Legally, doing nothing and praying that it'll work itself out is a reasonable alternative. The doctor denied him that alternative, which he has a right to choose. Case closed. It's really not much of a gray area, or complicated legal matter.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Aug 24, 2011 14:22:57 GMT -5
"so to me he would have to prove that there was some reasonable alternative to having this done, something I don't think is true. "
There are lots of alternatives...the question is whether you consider letting someone make up their own mind reasonable or unreasonable. You find getting a 2nd opinion unreasonable?
It's unlikely he can prove there were other courses of action that could have worked better because the knife-happy surgeon decided to just do what he felt like at the expense of letting other doctors examine it. Go back to my home demolition example, it's very hard to prove what other options the homeowner had available to them to save the house because I've already demolished it, destroying the evidence.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Aug 24, 2011 14:31:38 GMT -5
By the same token, he's received the benefits of the surgery. We'll never know if one of those alternatives would have killed him too. It's a judgement call. Probably you would not want me on the jury if you suffer damages. Right, it's a judgement call. That judgement call belongs to the patient. I'm kind of surprised that you're one of the people advocating for taking away someone's civil liberties.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Aug 24, 2011 14:33:15 GMT -5
What part of "informed consent" don't you understand? A doctor can't inform you and have you consent to a circumcision and then decide to remove the tip of your penis. If it wasn't something the patient consented to, they can't do it.
Unless he was going to die ON THE OPERATING TABLE, a doctor cannot legally make those kinds of decision for a patient without consent from the patient or whoever is legally designated to make that decision for the patient.
It doesn't matter if it is the only course of action for penile cancer, it can't be amputated partially or otherwise unless the patient CONSENTED to it.
The patient consented to a CIRCUMCISION.
I don't think my first reaction would be "Gee thanks doc for saving my life" if I woke up expecting to see my foreskin gone and instead I see the entire tip of my penis is gone. And how that can be considered "undamaged" is beyond me.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Aug 24, 2011 14:35:36 GMT -5
What part of "informed consent" don't you understand? A doctor can't inform you and have you consent to a circumcision and then decide to remove the tip of your penis. If it wasn't something the patient consented to, they can't do it. Unless he was going to die ON THE OPERATING TABLE, a doctor cannot legally make those kinds of decision for a patient without consent from the patient or whoever is legally designated to make that decision for the patient. It doesn't matter if it is the only course of action for penile cancer, it can't be amputated partially or otherwise unless the patient CONSENTED to it. The patient consented to a CIRCUMCISION. I don't think my first reaction would be "Gee thanks doc for saving my life" if I woke up expecting to see my foreskin gone and instead I see the entire tip of my penis is gone. And how that can be considered "undamaged" is beyond me. Haven't you heard? Cancer is serious.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Aug 24, 2011 14:40:33 GMT -5
Haven't you heard? Cancer is serious. Karma for you
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Aug 24, 2011 14:43:32 GMT -5
OK. So here's the million dollar question then: Who here would sue the doctor for damages?
I'm not talking about "making a stand" for informed consent. I'm not talking about black letter law. I'm asking who among you believes they are entitled to damages as a result of Dr. McCleavey having done you wrong? Would you sue because you and only you deserve compensation for what was done to you?
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Aug 24, 2011 14:49:01 GMT -5
I'd have called a lawyer before the anesthesia had completely worn off. If my little man has to go, so be it, but by god I'm getting the opportunity to throw him a farewell party first!
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Aug 24, 2011 14:50:53 GMT -5
I'd sue. You didn't have the right to take parts of my body and I would consider myself "damaged" if I woke up missing pieces that shouldn't have been missing.
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Chocolate Lover
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Post by Chocolate Lover on Aug 24, 2011 14:51:20 GMT -5
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Aug 24, 2011 15:16:43 GMT -5
So, thus far we have... Dark wouldn't sue. Drama would sue. CL would fall over laughing.
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Chocolate Lover
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Post by Chocolate Lover on Aug 24, 2011 15:27:47 GMT -5
I fell over laughing at Dark. I'd sue.
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cme1201
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Post by cme1201 on Aug 24, 2011 15:32:50 GMT -5
I would sue for pain and suffering, we can't castrate convicted sexual predators, a doctor should not be allowed to make this call if I was not dieing on the table.
My wife would sue, for lose of fun and physical affection.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Aug 24, 2011 16:03:07 GMT -5
So, thus far we have... Dark wouldn't sue. Drama would sue. CL would fall over laughing. Either I wasn't clear enough or you didn't understand what I was saying, I would most definitely sue.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Aug 24, 2011 16:05:03 GMT -5
I think you are engaging in hystrionics. Saying the doctor 'hacked off" a body part or whatever. Fair enough, he didn't hack it off. He sliced off a part of somebody's body without talking to them about it first. They only need to get saws and hack stuff when bone is involved. But, calling the doctor a "hack" or acting as if he totally disregarded the patient or did this for giggles is ridiculous. He did totally disregarded the patient. The law thinks so too. That's why consent rules exist in the first place. Doctors don't get to unilaterally decide what is in their patients best interest. Even if they're right. That's the part I don't think you guys are getting. It doesn't matter whether or not the doc was right about the cancer and the treatment. Deciding how to treat it without the patients consent is against the freaking law. Those laws exist for a reason. People have a fundamental right to decide for themselves issues about their own body. A doctor taking that right away from a patient is reprehensible, and clearly shows a total disregard for that person.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Aug 24, 2011 16:08:40 GMT -5
"They only need to get saws and hack stuff when bone is involved. "
this made me lol.
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973beachbum
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Post by 973beachbum on Aug 24, 2011 16:19:37 GMT -5
OK. So here's the million dollar question then: Who here would sue the doctor for damages? I'm not talking about "making a stand" for informed consent. I'm not talking about black letter law. I'm asking who among you believes they are entitled to damages as a result of Dr. McCleavey having done you wrong? Would you sue because you and only you deserve compensation for what was done to you? I am not sure I would sue but would kicking his ass and throwing him down a flight of stairs be an answer that fits in your matric somewhere? I may make the worng decision, but no one but me has the right to make for me, ever.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Aug 24, 2011 17:09:54 GMT -5
So we have answers ranging from "sue him" to "murder him". Great.
No trust. No professional respect. No gratitude. No benefit of the doubt. No faith. Welcome to America: land of the brave, home of pathologically incompetent doctors.
But... no skin off my nose. I'm not the one shelling out a years' salary for an operation, 40% of which is paying premiums on malpractice insurance.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Aug 24, 2011 17:25:18 GMT -5
I am alive because of one doctor, and two other doctors are responsible for my continued eyesight. There is something to say for gratitude. And another poster here has a father with both of his eyes, because he got a second opinion from a more competent doctor instead of letting the first doctor take out his whole eye. There is something to be said for the freedom to get a second opinion. The doc wanting to remove the eye was probably 100% confident that removing the eye was his only option by the way. They always are after all. Have you ever head a doctor say something like, "Well I can't be sure, but I'm going to call that lump cancer. I've just got a gut feeling about it."
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Aug 24, 2011 17:25:26 GMT -5
I'm overgeneralizing, Times. I apologize.
You'll have to forgive me for being a little stressed. I just went in for an operation because my penis was painfully inflamed and I couldn't urinate. The doctor found cancer, acted quickly to excise it (taking a professional risk on my good faith), possibly saving my life in the process. Now, rather than thanking him for taking a risk to save my life, I'm trying to decide whether to sue him for infringing on my sacred right to make stupid decisions or instead just throw him down a flight of stairs.
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