Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Aug 24, 2011 12:48:56 GMT -5
I think that some of you have been fortunate enough never to have suffered real pain in your life. Once you do, an amputation doesn't look like the worst outcome. Doesn't matter. A doctor can't take away a patients right to choose or play god. That's not how our system works. The patient has the right to make stupid decisions, or put themselves in more danger by delaying a decision.
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Post by pig on Aug 24, 2011 12:49:39 GMT -5
TT there are people who have cancer and refuse treatment. Not eveyone is like the people you saw. FFS, maybe the guy wanted to make love to his wife one last time.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Aug 24, 2011 12:49:45 GMT -5
I think that some of you have been fortunate enough never to have suffered real pain in your life. Once you do, an amputation doesn't look like the worst outcome. How do you know what everyone here has been through?
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Aug 24, 2011 12:53:31 GMT -5
"Certainly, "it looks weird" isn't a reason to remove a jaw, but we did have one American President who did actually have a jaw removed due to cancer."
This doctor already grossly misdiagnosed the problem! he's not the one I want making that determination on the fly while I'm under sedation.
" In fact, if you are every afflicted with any excruciatingly painful illness, you will want the part hacked off ASAP. "
WRONG! What I want ASAP is a diagnosis by a competent medical professional. Then I want to see what my alternatives are. I certainly don't want the doctor who's already made a massive misdiagnosis of the problem to say "i know best, I'll just do what I want".
Maybe the person I want operating on my cancer and my penis is not the guy who says "just need a circumcision...wait..WHOA, I was totally wrong, let's try something else instead".
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Aug 24, 2011 12:54:38 GMT -5
You do not have any free choice once the agony gets great enough. I'm pretty sure our legal system would disagree with you.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Aug 24, 2011 12:57:25 GMT -5
You would do what it takes to stop it. Which is completely different from a doctor deciding to do what he thinks will stop it without talking to you first. I mean, ideally you'd discuss your treatment options up front, but this doc didn't even dictate to the patient what he was doing. He put him under, lopped off his manhood, and yelled surprise when the guy woke up.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Aug 24, 2011 12:58:39 GMT -5
I think that some of you have been fortunate enough never to have suffered real pain in your life. Once you do, an amputation doesn't look like the worst outcome.
Oh for F's sake we GET IT, your mother died of cancer.
Nobody is saying don't treat it, nobody is saying it isn't an awful disease with often a slow painful death.
What people are saying is the doctor didn't have the right to just take off part of the patient's penis without consent.
There is no reason why during recovery they could not have admitted him and informed him he had cancer and what his options are.
I don't want doctors making decisions on the assumption I am too stupid to make the "right" one on my own. That's the whole reason the consent form even exists.
I'd be very upset if an ovary was removed and I wasn't informed that this was something that could occur during my surgery.
If it is listed on my consent that part of what I am agreeing to is the removal of one or both of my ovaries once they get in there that is a different story. I gave written informed consent.
Whether or not the consent form for this guy's circumcision covers agreeing to removal of part of the penis or not is up to their legal and ethics department.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Aug 24, 2011 13:00:45 GMT -5
"You do not have any free choice once the agony gets great enough. You will do anything to stop it. "
Wrong. My dad had cancer in his eye. He didn't just rush out to have someone rip it out of his head. One eye specialist told him that he had a cataract. The next one told him it was a tumor and that he was going to have to have his eye removed. The 3rd confirmed that it was indeed a tumor but hadn't seen that kind of particular case before and didn't feel comfortable making a recommendation. The 4th was a specialist who essentially specialized in this rare kind of tumor, and removed it without damaging the eye.
If he'd just had Doctor #2 do his thing he'd have 1 eye right now. Hell if he'd let specialist #1 have his way he'd have had cataract surgery and then had his eye yanked out too.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Aug 24, 2011 13:00:52 GMT -5
You are absolutely right about the frivolous suits.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Aug 24, 2011 13:01:38 GMT -5
While I am lucky it was not cancer, I had a LEEP seven years ago for pre-cancerous cells. Part of the consent form stated clearly that there was a chance a very large section of my cervix could end up having to be removed and the risks that went with it. I had the option to decline (which would have also involved filling out a form stating the above and I am aware of what I am declining).
If she had decided while in there to take my ovaries I would have sued her ass off because that was NOT what I consented to in the form. I don't care if they showed cancer, that is not what I consented to.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Aug 24, 2011 13:02:28 GMT -5
"have it destroyed while you are asleep or have it destroyed voluntarily after suffering weeks, months or years of agony"
No, I could have it destroyed hte next day if I wanted to. Or maybe I want a more qualified doctor to make that determination than someone who's already horrifically misdiagnosed me.
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Post by pig on Aug 24, 2011 13:03:35 GMT -5
Is there anyone besides Virgil that agrees with TT?
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Aug 24, 2011 13:07:18 GMT -5
My MIL has had more botched/complicated procedures than I can count. In each instance they have sought consent before doing ANYTHING. She wasn't closed up and sent home to be called back later several years down the road.
They admitted her right away, left the area "open", but before they could cut into her again they had to get the consent of either MIL if she was aware or FIL if she wasn't.
There is no reason the doctor in this case could not have done the same thing. He wasn't going to die in 48 hours or less.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Aug 24, 2011 13:08:21 GMT -5
Yuck, I don't want some cancer ridden penis inside me so forget about making love ONE MORE TIME before it gets lopped off!!! But I don't agree with just taking it off without consent. If 24 hours was going to make that much difference, he was a dead man anyway.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Aug 24, 2011 13:10:08 GMT -5
"Here his penis had to go."
Says the doctor. The doctor also said my dad's eye had to go. Even if the final decision was that it did have to go, he deserved to explore other options if he wanted to.
"The suit wasn't claiming that he did not have cancer."
My father's suit would not claim that he did not have cancer either.
"I am sure that a biopsy and records were taken for CYA reasons as well as billing. "
Assuming that the the tumor WAS cancerous, that does nothing to say the only option was amputation does it?
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Aug 24, 2011 13:10:32 GMT -5
Here his penis had to go. You don't know that. Maybe a better surgeon could have removed the cancer and left enough of his penis intact for him to have reconstructive surgery. This guy could be missing a penis because a doctor not competent enough to offer the best treatment took matters into his own hands. We won't ever know, precisely because the doc took matters into his own hands. Hence the whole lawsuit deal, which the patient will most likely win. The cancer doesn't matter. Nobody is arguing that he didn't have cancer. We all acknowledge that he did, and that's horrible. He still has the right to choose how to treat it, which doctors he works with on those treatments, and when they happen. Just because a patient has cancer doesn't mean the doctor can do whatever the hell they want to treat it.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Aug 24, 2011 13:13:28 GMT -5
Let's assume the doctor should have asked. If he did not ask, but the treatment was appropriate and life-saving, how do you assign damages? I choose an amount big enough to make sure no doctor who reads about it would even think about making a similar stupid choice. I'm thinking that number is easily seven figures.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Aug 24, 2011 13:15:20 GMT -5
"If he did not ask, but the treatment was appropriate and life-saving, how do you assign damages? "
Life-saving as in he probably needed it eventually? Or Life-saving as in he needed it RIGHT NOW or he was going to die immediately? That's a big distinction.
"To me, the only possible way to assign damages is a mis-diagnosis or wrong treatment, otherwise damages may be moot."
That's the problem, they won't be able to prove wrong treatment now because the doctor took away the patient's ability to have another option. If Doctor #2 had just plucked my dad's eye out, he wouldn't have been able to have Doctor #4 look at it and determine he could save the eye due to the way the tumor was in there. All he'd have is an eyeball and a tumor sitting there in a mason jar.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Aug 24, 2011 13:16:07 GMT -5
Maybe. But then someone will have to produce evidence of that better treatment plan that he was denied. I mean face it, some things in life are just very bad. No, they won't actually. The guy also had the right to refuse treatment entirely. Sure he would die a slow horrible painful death, but it's his choice. All he has to prove is that the doctor denied him that choice without his consent. Should be a pretty simple case really. Either the consent form gave the doctor the right to make the choice for him, or it didn't.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Aug 24, 2011 13:16:40 GMT -5
TT and I are arguing the "what is the ethical, compassionate course of action" standpoint. Most others here (notably Dark and swamp) are considering the "what is a doctor's legal obligation" standpoint. Ethics by reason versus ethics by law.
I generally side with the latter. This case is an exception. From the legal standpoint: can the doctor be sued, I would say "slam dunk case". Should Mr. Johnson elect to sue him: no. The doctor took a risk and did him a boon.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Aug 24, 2011 13:16:48 GMT -5
The decision on damages is up for the court to decide. You have the right to sue for anything you want, whether or not you win is up to the courts.
Nobody is saying he should not have been treated for the cancer. What people are saying is that he went in for a CIRCUMCISION and came out castrated. He consented to a CIRCUMCISION, not a castration.
The doctor should have gotten consent before lopping it off. Maybe that was the only option this guy had but the doctor didn't have the right to just decide for him that hte penis had to go so while I have you under for a totally different procedure.
If it was that life threatening that it required emergency surgery then why was he in there for a circumcision in the first place? Like Hoops said if it was that bad that it required immediate removal of the penis someone royally f-ed up his diagnosis.
If it wasn't there is no reason why they could not have just admitted him to the hospital upon recovery from the circumcision, informed him of the situation and had him sign the forms. They could have performed the surgery the next day.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Aug 24, 2011 13:17:07 GMT -5
"But then someone will have to produce evidence of that better treatment plan that he was denied."
This is why the lawsuit is so important. He probably cannot produce evidence of a better treatment plan that was denied...BECAUSE the original doctor has made it so that no other doctor can actually examine the patient to determine that.
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cme1201
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Post by cme1201 on Aug 24, 2011 13:17:46 GMT -5
I think that some of you have been fortunate enough never to have suffered real pain in your life. Once you do, an amputation doesn't look like the worst outcome. Have you ever heard of Phantom pain? Night movements? Extreme Depression? All are associated with Amputation. I highly doubt you have ever had to weigh the option of keeping a limb or deciding that one must be Amputated. Losing a body part by choice doesn't stop it and losing a body part with-out choice heaps more on the person then "it may save your life" helps them.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Aug 24, 2011 13:19:09 GMT -5
Let's assume the doctor should have asked. If he did not ask, but the treatment was appropriate and life-saving, how do you assign damages? Do you say, only save my life if I ask you? To me, the only possible way to assign damages is a mis-diagnosis or wrong treatment, otherwise damages may be moot. The primary "damage" there was the unwonted shock and how do you calculate a price on that? That's the jury's job.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Aug 24, 2011 13:20:43 GMT -5
If something is borderline, I'll give the doctor the benefit of the doubt because the alternative is making medical treatment costly and rare. A doctor ignoring consent requirements isn't borderline. Every doctor knows you can't do diddly without informed consent, unless the situation is immediately life threatening.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Aug 24, 2011 13:21:14 GMT -5
"the idea that doctors are never supposed to make mistakes ever and that every layman in the room knows more than they after the fact."
They're not supposed to make mistakes like "circumcision please"..."oh my god you chopped the whole thing off!"
"If something is borderline"
If I thought this was even remotely bordeline I might agree with you.
"what is the ethical, compassionate course of action"
I think the ethical, compassionate course of action is that if you completely F-up your diagnosis on someone and have them on the operating table because of it...you should inform them of your misdiagnosis and encourage them to seek a second opinion since you've already screwed up once.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Aug 24, 2011 13:21:38 GMT -5
the idea that doctors are never supposed to make mistakes ever and that every layman in the room knows more than they after the fact.
Nobody has said that either. I trust my doctors to make decisions and also recognize they are human.
But I also adhere to the laws they have to follow and the rights I have as a patient?
I am not going to sue my doctors for a mistake, but going back to my LEEP yes I WOULD sue if she had removed my ovaries because that was not something I consented to her doing.
My right as a patient is to refuse treatment. The law says the consent form has to explain everything they are going to do to me and the risks of it (like having a large part of my cervix removed).
They are not supposed to do anything I did not consent to unless it is an immediate life or death decision like I am going to die on the operating table if they don't do something.
That I could die of cancer 10 years down the road is NOT an immediate life or death decision. If I did not consent, they can't do it.
She can tell me they found pre-cancerous cells during my LEEP and they recommend removal, but she can't just remove them during my LEEP because that is not part of what I consented to during the procedure.
She didn't make a mistake, she violated the law. BIG difference.
A "mistake" is that sometimes the cervix can be loosed during a LEEP making carrying a child risky. I would not sue my doctor over that because it's part of the risks of having a LEEP and I consented to having one.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Aug 24, 2011 13:29:18 GMT -5
This message has been deleted.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Aug 24, 2011 13:41:46 GMT -5
A hundred bucks says that biopsying for penile cancer when a patient has inflammation isn't anywhere near standard practice. It's also quite possible that the doctor who ordered the surgery wasn't the surgeon who performed it.
In this case, I put myself into the surgeon's shoes.
Cancer. I'm positive. I'm also positive the best option is to amputate. Do I wake this man up, catheterize him, keep him bedridden in the hospital until he exhausts all hope consulting with other doctors, or do I operate now and trust he'll have some faith in my professional judgment?
If I was positive enough to maim a patient in my care at the risk of a major lawsuit, I'd have made the same decision as the surgeon.
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Cookies Galore
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Post by Cookies Galore on Aug 24, 2011 13:47:45 GMT -5
You would be wrong to assume that I have not faced the amputation choice. I have faced that and made a decision too. How is it that you have had or know someone who has had every single ailment ever mentioned on this board?
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