AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Aug 10, 2011 13:32:38 GMT -5
Why don't we audit them? Let's see what assets they have- not just income. Let's force them to sell their nice cars and trade 'em for a beater with a heater. Why don't we seize their property and have an auction? Why don't we make them bring in all their receipts, cash, and bank statement and force them to reconcile it all in front of the government auditor to ensure their purchases all meet government set guidelines? Where does this end? Is my point.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 10, 2011 13:35:10 GMT -5
Over 44% of the population currently is receiving a government benefit or handout. We are singling out people who work, play sports, and even animals that race for drug testing but not for recipients of welfare??? Liberals say NO to drug testing based on the Constitution but some states do require drug testing for welfare recipients because of the costs to their state budgets FLORIDA and KENTUCKY may not be alone but we shall see how the challenges by the left on this issue play out, I guess?? Let see now both city cops and firemen are drug tested in my area of northern California but not welfare recipients because it is a violation of their constitutional rights even though many of them are doing drugs with their welfare payments that we pay for with our state taxes??? Something seems to be our of whack here but then again this is California or the left of the rest of the nation Do you really want city cops and firemen fighting crime and saving lives while on crystal Meth? With civil servants it is a safety issue for them and the public they serve. that may or may not be true. the Air Force has used meth for decades.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 10, 2011 14:50:05 GMT -5
that may or may not be true. the Air Force has used meth for decades.Oh really, and what program was that? beats me. i thought everyone knew that, though: www.wired.com/medtech/health/news/2003/02/57434In a news conference held in connection with Schmidt and Umbach's Article 32 hearing, Dr. Pete Demitry, an Air Force physician and a pilot, claimed that the "Air Force has used (Dexedrine) safely for 60 years" with "no known speed-related mishaps."
The need for speed, Demitry added "is a life-and-death issue for our military."
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 10, 2011 14:52:36 GMT -5
and before you go off on me for failing to distinguish between crystal and speed, the active ingredient is the same. only the delivery system is different. the ingested form lasts longer than the up the nose and injected variety.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 10, 2011 15:03:05 GMT -5
and before you go off on me for failing to distinguish between crystal and speed, the active ingredient is the same. only the delivery system is different. the ingested form lasts longer than the up the nose and injected variety. So what years did you server? i didn't. but half of my family is military, and i am a pilot. does that somehow disqualify me from comment?
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 10, 2011 15:04:01 GMT -5
i always thought so. and anyone who has used this drug knows that in proper doses, it improves alertness.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 10, 2011 15:10:27 GMT -5
Speed was also routinely employed as a diet drug and also by long-distance truckers. People were encouraged by their employers to take this very dangerous drug because it improved alertness. It has not been illegal all that long. no. and it is not illegal at all in some places and uses, as we already pointed out.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 10, 2011 15:16:15 GMT -5
i didn't. but half of my family is military, and i am a pilot. does that somehow disqualify me from comment? No, not at all, just asking. Interesting article. I didnt know ok. just czeching.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 10, 2011 15:18:40 GMT -5
Sure, but it typically requires a prescription, although not illegal per se. What I find a riot is the lack of recognition that employers often PUSHED this drug or turned a blind eye because it suited their purposes. At any rate, I would rather see cops hired to protect against crime than persecuting people at random. I can see drug testing if there is some reason to believe that the person is high, i.e. slurred speech, dilated pupils, shaking hands, whatever. The cost of testing a zillion non-users alone should mitigate against this. i didn't know about the requirement to take speed at work, but it makes perfect sense to me. to get back to the issue: i think the random test bothers me the most. my attitude is best summarized by a famous quote from Lincoln. when informed that US Grant was often hammered on the job, Lincoln was purported to say "find out what whiskey he has been drinking and distribute it to the other generals". performance is the standard that should be used.
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Driftr
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Post by Driftr on Aug 10, 2011 16:00:56 GMT -5
That's funny. I just heard some guy on Bloomberg use that same quote one morning this week while I was getting ready. Is that where you got the inspiration to use it, or just crazy coincidence?
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 10, 2011 17:25:37 GMT -5
That's funny. I just heard some guy on Bloomberg use that same quote one morning this week while I was getting ready. Is that where you got the inspiration to use it, or just crazy coincidence? just a coincidence. i love that quote. i got it from WS Burroughs.
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Post by cme1201 on Aug 10, 2011 18:44:55 GMT -5
Using speed was a tacit requirement for truckers and car services for years. The drug of choice was nicknamed, "Black Beauties." This was an open secret. Everyone I know used to call them white crosses.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 10, 2011 19:10:26 GMT -5
Using speed was a tacit requirement for truckers and car services for years. The drug of choice was nicknamed, "Black Beauties." This was an open secret. Everyone I know used to call them white crosses. i always thought Black Beauties were downers and White Crosses were uppers. maybe some drug experts can help us with this one. i was never a pill popper, myself. ;]
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Aug 10, 2011 19:20:48 GMT -5
Everyone I know used to call them white crosses. i always thought Black Beauties were downers and White Crosses were uppers. maybe some drug experts can help us with this one. i was never a pill popper, myself. ;] Combination of dextro-amphetamine and levo-amphetamine, Black Beauties were an "upper".
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 10, 2011 19:30:06 GMT -5
i always thought Black Beauties were downers and White Crosses were uppers. maybe some drug experts can help us with this one. i was never a pill popper, myself. ;] Combination of dextro-amphetamine and levo-amphetamine, Black Beauties were an "upper". i popped one of those one night when i was drunk at Chico State. thinking it was a downer, i thought the better of it and induced it back up. that was the first, last, and only time i had any experience with that particular drug.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Aug 10, 2011 19:35:41 GMT -5
That's probably good, dj. Damned things can cause some nasty arrythmias under the right (or wrong, if one thinks about it) circumstances.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Aug 10, 2011 20:02:43 GMT -5
Do you really want city cops and firemen fighting crime and saving lives while on crystal Meth? With civil servants it is a safety issue for them and the public they serve. that may or may not be true. the Air Force has used meth for decades. I am talking about this type of crystal Meth:
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verrip1
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Post by verrip1 on Aug 10, 2011 20:13:37 GMT -5
This message has been deleted. *No need for that kind of comment, Verrip. You're above that.*
mmhmm, P&M Moderator
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handyman2
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Post by handyman2 on Aug 10, 2011 20:25:23 GMT -5
I hate to burst your bubble but the prescription drug and street meth are as different as night and day. The street drug version is what you see the most. One trip and you are hooked. You might want to consult a drug specialist. Street meth is a real brain burner. Any pilot who is on street meth would never find the runway. Some truck drivers pop beenies to stay awake or commonly called Benzedrine. He gets caught and away goes his CDL license.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 10, 2011 22:12:19 GMT -5
that may or may not be true. the Air Force has used meth for decades. I am talking about this type of crystal Meth: there is obviously a difference between use and abuse. i know people that have used that drug and they look totally fine.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 10, 2011 22:13:48 GMT -5
I hate to burst your bubble but the prescription drug and street meth are as different as night and day. The street drug version is what you see the most. One trip and you are hooked. huh? i have taken that drug. it is totally boring. and not especially addictive. i found smoking far more difficult a habit to break.
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handyman2
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Post by handyman2 on Aug 10, 2011 22:37:07 GMT -5
DJ I would have to say your credibility is showing. My wife and I have done volunteer work at a meth rehab facility and I must say you don't have a clue what you are talking about. Go visit one for yourself and get educated.
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fairlycrazy23
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Post by fairlycrazy23 on Aug 11, 2011 11:19:27 GMT -5
You don't seem to advocate this for a persons money, because that is certainly property and you seem to be ok with taxes. taxes are by definition the public's money. how it is spent is up to the elected, not the electorate. perhaps i could have been more clear. if i want to get drunk or eat a $10/lb steak and caviar on the dole, i don't see why the state should have any say in it whatsoever. WHETHER i am on the dole or not is entirely the state's business. WHAT I DO while on it is none of their concern at all. let me know if that is not clear enough. Yes it is clear, all income belongs to the government and they get to determine how much you keep.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 11, 2011 12:06:03 GMT -5
DJ I would have to say your credibility is showing. My wife and I have done volunteer work at a meth rehab facility and I must say you don't have a clue what you are talking about. Go visit one for yourself and get educated. LOL! i love the "get educated" line. awesome. give me a good swift kick in the balls if i am ever that condescending. i lived with a meth head. her sister was a meth head. her brother was a meth head. i spent two years in the same house with her, and knew her for many many years afterwards. i have used this drug personally, and found it not only not addictive, but totally boring. however, my ex-girlfriend gave up using this drug when she became pregnant. just like that. no rehab clinic, no tortured nights craving the drug. just. quit. she looked fine when she quit, and she still looks fine, even though she used the drug regularly for five years. i will add one more thing. i recently served on a jury with a guy who was addicted to and dealing meth for 9 years. i got to stare at him for four days. he looked healthier than i do. your experience with long term addicts is different than mine with users and intermediate term abusers. please accept that fact without resorting to ad-hominem.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 11, 2011 12:09:16 GMT -5
taxes are by definition the public's money. how it is spent is up to the elected, not the electorate. perhaps i could have been more clear. if i want to get drunk or eat a $10/lb steak and caviar on the dole, i don't see why the state should have any say in it whatsoever. WHETHER i am on the dole or not is entirely the state's business. WHAT I DO while on it is none of their concern at all. let me know if that is not clear enough. Yes it is clear, all income belongs to the government and they get to determine how much you keep. that is not what i said, nor has it ever been the case in the US. in fact, i pretty much said the opposite. what a person does with his net income is (or damn well should be) his business.
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fairlycrazy23
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Post by fairlycrazy23 on Aug 11, 2011 12:50:31 GMT -5
Yes it is clear, all income belongs to the government and they get to determine how much you keep. that is not what i said, nor has it ever been the case in the US. in fact, i pretty much said the opposite. what a person does with his net income is (or damn well should be) his business. So is net before or after taxes, if it is after taxes, then you are saying the government is entitled to however much of your income they want and what is left (net), is yours. It is clear you don't equate income the same as you do other property, when in fact it is the same
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 11, 2011 13:11:57 GMT -5
that is not what i said, nor has it ever been the case in the US. in fact, i pretty much said the opposite. what a person does with his net income is (or damn well should be) his business. So is net before or after taxes, net is after taxes. that is fairly well understood.if it is after taxes, then you are saying the government is entitled to however much of your income they want and what is left (net), is yours. i think you are misusing the term "entitled" here. the correct way of putting it is "authorized". and they are not authorized to what they want, only what they are permitted by authority to have.It is clear you don't equate income the same as you do other property, when in fact it is the same my view of property is pretty much exactly the same as Adam Smith's. if it is significantly different than yours, i would be a bit surprised.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 11, 2011 13:29:27 GMT -5
that video is a good introduction to libertarian thinking, but it doesn't really address the thorny questions- especially those of just powers of elected and appointed officials.
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fairlycrazy23
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Post by fairlycrazy23 on Aug 11, 2011 14:10:04 GMT -5
So is net before or after taxes, net is after taxes. that is fairly well understood.if it is after taxes, then you are saying the government is entitled to however much of your income they want and what is left (net), is yours. i think you are misusing the term "entitled" here. the correct way of putting it is "authorized". and they are not authorized to what they want, only what they are permitted by authority to have.It is clear you don't equate income the same as you do other property, when in fact it is the same my view of property is pretty much exactly the same as Adam Smith's. if it is significantly different than yours, i would be a bit surprised. Ok, so in this case the government is authorized to require you to take a drug test before you can get welfare from the government
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 11, 2011 14:35:50 GMT -5
my view of property is pretty much exactly the same as Adam Smith's. if it is significantly different than yours, i would be a bit surprised. Ok, so in this case the government is authorized to require you to take a drug test before you can get welfare from the government i am having trouble finding the amendment which allows government to search my person without probable cause. could you point that one out to me?
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