Bluerobin
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Post by Bluerobin on Aug 9, 2011 7:41:05 GMT -5
Magic, the constitution gave the congress the right to make any needed law. Therefore, their taking is constitutional. Like it or not, they can tax you. I believe in workfare rather than welfare.
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rockon
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Post by rockon on Aug 9, 2011 7:42:45 GMT -5
Blue, There is no ten year plan to balance our budget. If there was the down grade probably would not have happened. Right now there is a non enforceable plan to reduce the deficit a little bit but it is much more likely that even that will not happen. We have to quite thinking in terms of the government getting people working. They can not "create" sustainable jobs. They can only create an environment where jobs can be created by the private sector and they could start by reviewing our trade agreements and stop supporting special interests like unions who make us less competitive. Remember that the "Bush" tax cuts also cut rates for the other classes as well. Do you support raising all back to the "Clinton" rates? And while I personally do not support cutting additional taxes to "generate" revenue the fact remains that revenue increased dramatically after these cuts happened. Revenue increases without major spending restraint and reductions will not make any impact.
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Post by magichat on Aug 9, 2011 7:45:08 GMT -5
Magic, the constitution gave the congress the right to make any needed law. Therefore, their taking is constitutional. Like it or not, they can tax you. I believe in workfare rather than welfare. I know they can tax me, what they can't do is redistribute that money to my fellow citizens. And no the constitution does not give Congress the right to make any law. Could they make a law deeming one particular religion the religion of the US?
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Bluerobin
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Post by Bluerobin on Aug 9, 2011 7:49:41 GMT -5
rockon, govt can encourage business to create jobs. They are not doing so. I favor tax credits, for each new domestic job created - no tax cuts. Clinton era taxes might be necessary to start attacking the debt. We all have to sacrifice, to get on track. Bottom line is taxes will go up. First though, we should really cut the spending. It is amazing that jobs were lost, not created after the Bush tax cuts. I no longer believe tax cuts help.
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floridayankee
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If You Don't Stand Behind Our Troops, Feel Free to Stand in Front of Them.
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Post by floridayankee on Aug 9, 2011 8:08:11 GMT -5
fy, we got the message all right. The tp has got to go! Why not point fingers? Everyone blames Barry, even for the shit others caused. If this finger pointing bullshit is what you got, then sadly, you missed the message. Why does the TP need to go? For daring to inject a bit of fiscal sanity back in to our government? For telling us the truth rather than sugar coating the shitstorm of debt we're facing? Maybe you prefer our leaders lead us around by the nose blindfolded, but I don't. For "grandstanding" (which cannot happen without the opposition also grandstanding)? Keep your head in the sand BR. I'd prefer not to hand a boatload of debt to my kids because I was too weak to stop the insanity.
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Bluerobin
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Post by Bluerobin on Aug 9, 2011 8:14:56 GMT -5
FY, the tp doesn't have a clue. Yes, things need to be corrected, but you can't do it all at once and get a quality result. Plus, they are blindly attacking. Our parents handed us a boatload of debt. Why shouldn't we do the same to your kids too? Same old tired slogans and blind shots at the debt are going to do nothing. I am really sick of the "what about the kids" mantra. Keep your head in the sand. The tp will accomplish nothing except more damage, without a different approach.
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Bluerobin
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Post by Bluerobin on Aug 9, 2011 8:15:11 GMT -5
This message has been deleted.
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rockon
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Post by rockon on Aug 9, 2011 8:20:51 GMT -5
Blue, Here is where our thinking part ways. As an employer we hire people when we have an increase in the demand for our product. We do not hire people because the government offers a tax credit to hire a new employee. I very much oppose these scam programs and only ask for a level playing field with our foreign competition. The jobs lost during the time Bush was President was largely related to the trade agreements signed during the Clinton years.
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floridayankee
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Post by floridayankee on Aug 9, 2011 8:28:59 GMT -5
FY, the tp doesn't have a clue. Yes, things need to be corrected, but you can't do it all at once and get a quality result. Plus, they are blindly attacking. Our parents handed us a boatload of debt. Why shouldn't we do the same to your kids too? IMHO, it's taxation without representation. It's not right right to piss away my kids future Well, I guess that's too bad. I'm going to keep saying it because I actually care about my kids future. Sure. And you keep pointing fingers and blaming the TP rather than addressing the real issues causing the problems. We have a year and a half before we hit the new ceiling. I'm sure if you whine loud enough about the TP, it'll fix all the problems by then. Tick, tock, tick tock, tick tock.....the fuse is lit and time's a wastin'!
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Bluerobin
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Post by Bluerobin on Aug 9, 2011 8:29:15 GMT -5
rockon, tell me you don't have any positions that you are keeping unfilled because you are unsure of what's ahead. I suspect you might fill some of them with an incentive. You can only use the "work harder or smarter" gambit so long. The last 10 years proved the tax cuts don't work. Time to try something different.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2011 8:35:06 GMT -5
I find a lot of comments about the Tea Party funny as hell.
The Tea Partiers are doing EXACTLY what the people that voted them into office wanted. You may not like what they are doing but that's the truth. They were voted in by people wanting to go back to the Constitution that we keep moving away from. I guess that you could say the exact same thing about the democrats (except the part about the constitution). The mandate there is socialism. As for the Republican party they have moved so far away from the values that they used to have that I for one don't know what they stand for except for compromise. I feel that we have compromised this country to death.
Spend 1 trillion or 2 trillion & compromise at 1.5 trillion isn't viable anymore because we should be cutting trillions, not spending it. The compromise spending cuts that were agreed on actually cost us money. No more compromise, no more business as usual. Address & fix the situation.
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rockon
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Post by rockon on Aug 9, 2011 8:41:03 GMT -5
Very simply really. When we have orders we hire more people when the orders drop we lay off. not sure how you could operate differently. When our country signed free trade agreements with China we had to compete with them to keep our work. This meant automating to reduce the number of employees.
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Post by privateinvestor on Aug 9, 2011 8:42:25 GMT -5
I find a lot of comments about the Tea Party funny as hell. The Tea Partiers are doing EXACTLY what the people that voted them into office wanted. You may not like what they are doing but that's the truth. They were voted in by people wanting to go back to the Constitution that we keep moving away from. I guess that you could say the exact same thing about the democrats (except the part about the constitution). The mandate there is socialism. As for the Republican party they have moved so far away from the values that they used to have that I for one don't know what they stand for except for compromise. I feel that we have compromised this country to death. Spend 1 trillion or 2 trillion & compromise at 1.5 trillion isn't viable anymore because we should be cutting trillions, not spending it. The compromise spending cuts that were agreed on actually cost us money. No more compromise, no more business as usual. Address & fix the situation. MSNBC pundits are blaming the Tea Party for the stock market sell off which is absurd but seems to be gaining favor among the Liberals
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rockon
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Post by rockon on Aug 9, 2011 8:43:58 GMT -5
Blue, just curious. Do you support raising all of the Bush cuts or just some of them?
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Bluerobin
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Post by Bluerobin on Aug 9, 2011 8:50:41 GMT -5
rockon, let them expire. Yes, that will cost me, since my taxable income comes from the market. We need more revenue, not just cuts. Yes, it is sad that the tp is doing what the people who elected them wanted, but they have an obligation to represent all of their constituents. That is what they and other zealots forget. But in 15 months, they are gone and a new bunch will take over.
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floridayankee
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Post by floridayankee on Aug 9, 2011 8:53:55 GMT -5
MSNBC pundits are blaming the Tea Party for the stock market sell off which is absurd but seems to be gaining favor among the Liberals IMHO, repubs and dems can cry and bitch about the TP all they want. the fact that they brought our fiscal nightmare to a head is what matters. Blaming them for shining a light on it all you want, but it's wasting time. The clock is running and we need to get our wasteful spending under control now...not pass it on to the future. We've heard the warning shot fired by S&P. Are we going to listen or keep whining, blaming and ignoring the problem?
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Post by privateinvestor on Aug 9, 2011 8:59:27 GMT -5
Their lack of thoroughness and mistakes made, have bestowed the joke status on S&P. I'd dare to say that they are all pretty much a joke in the bond rating department since it is usually the bond issuers that pay these ratings agencies. Just a bit of a conflict there, IMHO. ETA: Pulled the "Post" trigger too quick.... Even if you consider S&P a joke, with 40% market share, apparently somebody takes them seriously. The warnings issued by both S&P and Moody's were brushed off by government and nothing came out of this debt ceiling deal but more debt. I think our government should see this for what it is....a shot across the bow. If this ship isn't turned around now, the next shot may equate to a torpedo right in the gut. If the S&P and Moody's rating had been extremely positive instead of extremely negative for the congress and administration's management of the nation's debt would they be shunned??? I think not Obama would be patting himself on the back if that happened..IMHO
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Bluerobin
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Post by Bluerobin on Aug 9, 2011 9:02:59 GMT -5
I am amazed by the weight those not in the credit field ascribe to the S&P rating. Truth is, the AA+ vs the AAA hardly makes a difference, but it does panic the great unwashed. What is most important is how the US pays bills. If you suspect they will default, put them on credit watch, and take action if something happens.
Unless the tp organizes on it's own, I suspect they will fail next election since they cannot count on much help from the pubs in future elections. They have to learn not to rock the boat.
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rockon
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Post by rockon on Aug 9, 2011 9:06:58 GMT -5
Do you feel the same way about the liberal Democrats who voted against this bill?
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Post by privateinvestor on Aug 9, 2011 9:08:37 GMT -5
I am amazed by the weight those not in the credit field ascribe to the S&P rating. Truth is, the AA+ vs the AAA hardly makes a difference, but it does panic the great unwashed. What is most important is how the US pays bills. If you suspect they will default, put them on credit watch, and take action if something happens. Unless the tp organizes on it's own, I suspect they will fail next election since they cannot count on much help from the pubs in future elections. They have to learn not to rock the boat. Ok ignore the S&P Rating if you don't agree with it...but that is silly because if you don't like the message then by all means demean and degrade the messenger which is typical of Liberal thinking including Paul Krugman and the Obama economic advisers
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Bluerobin
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Post by Bluerobin on Aug 9, 2011 9:09:38 GMT -5
rockon, I feel the pubs and dems will reach across the aisle and around the tp to get things done. As far as I am concerned it should have been a straight vote to raise the debt ceiling. Then get to work on fixing the problems. There are radicals on both sides, but the majority of Americans are solidly middle of the road.
PI, I spent a career in credit and collections. Like I said very little difference in the ratings. If you watched any financial news yesterday, there were many experts who agreed. What happens is more important than the speculation.
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Post by privateinvestor on Aug 9, 2011 9:12:45 GMT -5
rockon, I feel the pubs and dems will reach across the aisle and around the tp to get things done. As far as I am concerned it should have been a straight vote to raise the debt ceiling. Then get to work on fixing the problems. There are radicals on both sides, but the majority of Americans are solidly middle of the road. ......just rasing the debt ceiling without spending cuts was dumped so why do you think that would be the answer??
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Post by privateinvestor on Aug 9, 2011 9:13:42 GMT -5
PI, I spent a career in credit and collections. Like I said very little difference in the ratings. If you watched any financial news yesterday, there were many experts who agreed. What happens is more important than the speculation.
I watched the financial news yesterday and didn't see any experts who agreed with that nonsense except for Jim Cramer on CNBC and he is not credible IMHO
The S&P rating is a warning for congress and the administration to get their act together and that is what the financial markets want to see happen check it out for yourself and forget all the Liberal Media spin and hype..
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Bluerobin
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Post by Bluerobin on Aug 9, 2011 9:18:23 GMT -5
......just rasing the debt ceiling without spending cuts was dumped so why do you think that would be the answer??
Idiotic idealists obstructed this plan. It would have solved the problem without the discourse, which has been detrimental to the nation. Previously, it was only the dems who aired their dirty laundry in public. Now the tp seems obliged to emulate the dems.
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floridayankee
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Post by floridayankee on Aug 9, 2011 9:27:30 GMT -5
......just rasing the debt ceiling without spending cuts was dumped so why do you think that would be the answer??
Idiotic idealists obstructed this plan. It would have solved the problem without the discourse, which has been detrimental to the nation. This problem has been 50+ years in the making and it's not like the debt ceiling suddenly appeared out of nowhere and caught our congress by surprise. Simply raising the debt ceiling with "promises of cuts" (wink, wink, nudge, nudge) is what we've been doing for the last half century. This is the very heart of our problems, not the solution. The wasteful spending and endless handouts have been detrimental to our nation...not the slight turn towards fiscal sanity.
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Post by privateinvestor on Aug 9, 2011 9:32:16 GMT -5
......just rasing the debt ceiling without spending cuts was dumped so why do you think that would be the answer?? Idiotic idealists obstructed this plan. It would have solved the problem without the discourse, which has been detrimental to the nation. Previously, it was only the dems who aired their dirty laundry in public. Now the tp seems obliged to emulate the dems. Wrong again it was not just the idealists who dumped that proposal and only the progressive wing of the Democratic Party was pushing that lame idea Even Obama finally agreed to spending cuts along with rising the debt ceiling and he is not an idealistic obstructionist as far as I know
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Bluerobin
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Post by Bluerobin on Aug 9, 2011 9:38:33 GMT -5
Yep, it took 50+ years to create the problem, it ain't gonna be fixed in one fell swoop. That is what the tp has to learn.
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Post by privateinvestor on Aug 9, 2011 9:46:08 GMT -5
Yep, it took 50+ years to create the problem, it ain't gonna be fixed in one fell swoop. That is what the tp has to learn. You are giving the Tea Party too much credit ..all they did was get the debt reduction proposals that were suggested by Simpson/Boiles back into the political discourse in congress which is NOT a bad thing if you believe in fiscal responsibility
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floridayankee
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Post by floridayankee on Aug 9, 2011 10:02:17 GMT -5
Yep, it took 50+ years to create the problem, it ain't gonna be fixed in one fell swoop. That is what the tp has to learn. Dramatize much BR? I must have missed the $14.5t in cuts needed to "fix this in one fell swoop." IMHO, this bill only keeps us from adding $3 trillion to the debt over 10 years. All this means is that we're only going to add $7 trillion to the US Debt rather than $10 trillion. Big whoop. Congress calls this bill "a success." I call it bullshit.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2011 10:09:06 GMT -5
Yes, it is sad that the tp is doing what the people who elected them wanted, but they have an obligation to represent all of their constituents.
Let's assume that in the area where a Tea Party Congressman was elected the make up is 1 Republican, 1 Democrat, & the rest of the people voted for the Tea Party Congressman.
Now how exactly is that congressman going to go about representing all of the people in their area? It's not possible. The only thing they can do is to represent the people that elected them because one must assume that they are the majority.
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