weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Aug 4, 2011 3:16:05 GMT -5
It's still nowhere near 50%. 30% of Quebecers pay no income tax, and the latest figures I can find show about 33.4% of Canadians overall pay no income taxes.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Aug 4, 2011 3:17:06 GMT -5
One-third of Canadian adults pay no income taxes April 29, 2011 | 11:10 Stefania Moretti | Money NewsCommentsSend | Print | Size : A A A Share : Complaining about high taxes is practically a national sport in Canada, so it may surprise you to learn that more than one-third of adults in this country paid no federal income tax last year.
As another tax deadline approaches at midnight Saturday, data from the Canada Revenue Agency shows 33.4% of Canadian workers were not taxed for 2009. QMI Agency asked the CRA for the data after a U.S. study found 69 million Americans, or 45% of households, will end up owing Washington no income tax this year.
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Post by BeenThere...DoneThat... on Aug 4, 2011 3:25:24 GMT -5
And again, no one seems to ask themselves "why?" Instead, people are more worried about treating the symptoms rather than curing the disease. It should be alarming that even wealthy nations cannot afford even partially socialized medicine, and what people SHOULD be asking is: Why is it so damned expensive? People should be outraged at the runaway costs the health care industry inflicts upon us rather than storming the poor with torches and pitchforks or hiding behind empty ideologies like socialism and capitalism. One does not need a crystal ball or a ouija board to predict what domino will fall next. If governments cannot afford health care for its citizens, it will only be a matter of time before businesses cannot afford health care for its employees. In fact, this reality is already beginning to nibble away at the edges of capitalism since employees are constantly being asked to pay more per check for their health plans while actual coverage is being reduced. Even with employer plans, per-month premiums are skyrocketing, and an ever increasing number of people are being priced out of health care completely. Either that, or they are paying premiums they really can't afford - thus debt isn't being paid down, it's impossible to accrue savings, college funds for the kids are no longer viable, and they're sure not stimulating the economy since the lion's share of their disposable income is going to health care costs even when they're not sick. Worse still is a large percentage of health care costs are a result of the administrative side of the industry, not the actual practice of treating the sick. The medical industry's bureaucracy is just as bloated and redundant as the government's, yet if you look at job listings for any city, you'll find literally hundreds of open positions for health care pencil pushers. So where will everyone be when neither the government nor businesses can afford to pay for, or help pay for, the average citizen's health care? Of course, the entire cost will come out of our pockets. Between paying on debt and paying for insurance premiums, it'll be a wonder if we have much of a functioning economy at all. Since businesses both large and small rely on consumerism to maintain their economic viability, the amount we pay in things like gas, health care, energy, and debt has a serious impact on how much consumerism there actually is. This only serves to exacerbate the already existing problem since the less money businesses make via consumerism, the more difficult it is for them to afford continuation of effective health care plans for their employees. And let's not forget the OTHER eight-hundred pound gorilla in the room: retirement. Since the idea of pensions no longer applies in our society, people are now forced to not only pay increasing amounts for health care, they must also make enough money to plan for their own retirement. All of this during a time when wages are stagnating and businesses aren't hiring. In fact, they still engage in massive lay-offs. The road we're on is obvious. People have been saying for decades that our way of life is unsustainable, that consumer-driven economics was doomed. Now we're seeing the first of many death throes. Welfare, the poor, etc., they're all nothing more than scapegoats, and while we could pull the carpet out from beneath their feet, that's akin to putting a band-aid on a bullet wound. It might buy some time - a decade perhaps - but until we, as a society, begin clamping down on runaway prices and the need for greed - to always want more, more, more money - civilization as we know it is on life support. Too bad there won't be enough money to pay for it. ...amazing the difference worldview can make... ...you say people don't seem to ask, "why?" ... while I have to ask why you think a govt. should guarantee and/or provide for healthcare and retirement?
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Post by BeenThere...DoneThat... on Aug 4, 2011 3:27:17 GMT -5
Of course things like the American citizens subsidizing the rest of the world's R&D costs so everyone else can buy prescriptions at half our cost has nothing to do with it. Yeah, we're getting more health care, but one has to ask how much of it is necessary. I sometimes wonder if health care would actually be more cost effective if we removed insurance companies from the equation and everyone had to pay for it out of pocket. Then the medical industry could only charge what the public is capable of paying, not what the insurance companies are capable of paying. I bet that would bring the costs down to a reasonable level. But when doctors are charging $400 to insurance companies just to ask the patient a handful of questions (which happened to my father), prices can continue to be outrageous. Perhaps then we would see more people like Jonas Sauk, who felt he had enough money and gave the polio vaccine to the world - instead of patenting it and charging thousands of dollars for a cheaply made vaccine. You know ... an actual CURE instead of an expensive life-long treatment or pill regimen that costs more per month than a person's house and car payments combined. ...how much healthcare IS necessary? ...and can't someone be greedy about their healthcare?
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Aug 4, 2011 3:31:59 GMT -5
"while I have to ask why you think a govt. should guarantee and/or provide for healthcare and retirement? "
The government is not a separate entity...it's us. I don't mind paying higher taxes to ensure that ALL my fellow Canadians have a basic decent standard of living. It seems to bother a whole lot of people here, though.
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Post by BeenThere...DoneThat... on Aug 4, 2011 3:35:13 GMT -5
How anyone thinks that socialism keeps greed out the picture is beyond me To argue greed is to argue human nature, it's unavoidable.. i disagree with Freidman and others that think that our base impulses are somehow an unavoidable consequence of being human. it seems to me that human beings are endowed with minds for a reason- that they should be used. to not do so is a crime against God. therefore, if we are confronted with a situation where we are assured of mutual destruction, i would hope that we would do the thing that would ensure our survival. the prisoner's dilemma predicts a logical outcome that is not necessarily part of human nature. the fact is that most people would actually prefer, in a situation where the outcome almost guarantees harm to another, to work together. the paranoic reasoning of John Nash may be the basis for a stable society, but it is not one that i want to live in. we can do better. we must do better, imo, if we are to not become part of the fossil record for the descendants of cockroaches to unearth. ...fwiw, I'd consider it almost futile to try and legislate away crimes against God...
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Post by BeenThere...DoneThat... on Aug 4, 2011 3:38:55 GMT -5
"while I have to ask why you think a govt. should guarantee and/or provide for healthcare and retirement? " The government is not a separate entity...it's us. I don't mind paying higher taxes to ensure that ALL my fellow Canadians have a basic decent standard of living. It seems to bother a whole lot of people here, though. ...it would bother me, in large part because I don't want anyone else, beyond my immediate family, so directly involved in determining what constitutes a "decent standard of living" for me...
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Post by BeenThere...DoneThat... on Aug 4, 2011 3:42:25 GMT -5
...and since I'm now curious, do you mind my having a say in what you can get in a decent standard of living?
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Aug 4, 2011 3:47:39 GMT -5
...and since I'm now curious, do you mind my having a say in what you can get in a decent standard of living? Sure, you can have your say in what you can get in a decent standard of living. Where YOU live.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Aug 4, 2011 3:49:57 GMT -5
"The phrase my brother's keeper is a reference to the Biblical story of Cain and Abel in the book of Genesis. It is generally understood to mean "responsible for the welfare of my brother," or, by extension, of other human beings in general. Cain, the first murderer according to the Bible, eschewed this responsibility, but the phrase is often used with the suggestion that those who place their faith in the Bible do have such a responsibility to their fellow man"
I AM my brother's keeper. Which is really ironic, because I think I'm the only atheist here.
Goodnight.
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Post by BeenThere...DoneThat... on Aug 4, 2011 3:50:23 GMT -5
...and since I'm now curious, do you mind my having a say in what you can get in a decent standard of living? Sure, you can have your say in what you can get in a decent standard of living. Where YOU live. ...then why act bothered that some of us are bothered by socialized systems?
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Post by BeenThere...DoneThat... on Aug 4, 2011 3:53:19 GMT -5
"The phrase my brother's keeper is a reference to the Biblical story of Cain and Abel in the book of Genesis. It is generally understood to mean "responsible for the welfare of my brother," or, by extension, of other human beings in general. Cain, the first murderer according to the Bible, eschewed this responsibility, but the phrase is often used with the suggestion that those who place their faith in the Bible do have such a responsibility to their fellow man" I AM my brother's keeper. Which is really ironic, because I think I'm the only atheist here. Goodnight. ...if you profess to be atheist, then maybe that helps to explain why you interpret that story in that way? ...but good night to you, too...
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Don Perignon
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Post by Don Perignon on Aug 4, 2011 4:03:30 GMT -5
The ultimate macro-expression of "socialism" is the nation's Military... the combined assets of the nation's taxpayers support salaries for military personnel, pensions for military retirees, even food, shelter and clothing for service personnel... and exorbitantly-priced "weapons systems" and "defense programs". Boeing, Northrup-Grumman, General Dynamics, etc. ... none would exist without taxpayers "socializing" the costs.
Ironically, this socialist entity, the military, is overlaid by a strict caste system which separates the "Officers" (the elite ruling class) from the "enlisted men" (the peasants).
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Post by BeenThere...DoneThat... on Aug 4, 2011 4:06:07 GMT -5
The ultimate macro-expression of "socialism" is the nation's Military... the combined assets of the nation's taxpayers support salaries for military personnel, pensions for military retirees, even food, shelter and clothing for service personnel... and exorbitantly-priced "weapons systems" and "defense programs". Boeing, Northrup-Grumman, General Dynamics, etc. ... none would exist without taxpayers "socializing" the costs. Ironically, this socialist entity, the military, is overlaid by a strict caste system which separates the "Officers" (the elite ruling class) from the "enlisted men" (the peasants). ...to which I would ask if you have ever been in the military yourself, or if you were enlisted and have a chip on your shoulder?
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Aug 4, 2011 8:38:23 GMT -5
The ultimate macro-expression of "socialism" is the nation's Military... the combined assets of the nation's taxpayers support salaries for military personnel, pensions for military retirees, even food, shelter and clothing for service personnel... ... They even (at least used to) have extra pay if you have a spouse and larger living quarters based on size of family.
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handyman2
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Post by handyman2 on Aug 4, 2011 9:55:36 GMT -5
People complain about the high cost of medical care and it is high but the putting of the blame on insurance companies shows how little people really know about the business. Having worked in that business and still do part time I have seen the medical field evolve over 45 years. So what has driven up costs? There are many examples but here are just a couple of many. One of the major costs is the development of new medical technologies. We can through new devices diagnose and and give people longer life than ever before. However these new wonder devices are very expensive to develop, maintain and the training to use them is also high. We can diagnose with them issues that before the patient would be dead before we knew what was wrong. Just look at our military personnel who are maimed by an IED. Arms, legs, horrendous body damage, they would have been dead in short order if these new technologies had not been developed and available. We cheer when we see them walking on bionic legs or writing with a mechanical arm. We can detect brain tumors and remove them without leaving the person with partial paralysis. The list is long but all seem worthwhile to me. But just on the everyday side, the cost to a hospital of things we complain about that cost us more are utilities to run such a facility. When the cost of oil goes up it not only affects us but it is a major impact on medical facilities also. In the pharmaceutical industry it takes millions to research and develop new medicines yet we complain about the cost of them yet the development costs must be recovered in a short period of time due to patient laws or there would be no one investing in developing them. We say it is a rip off yet if one of them saves our life we are grateful. In conclusion the health care industry in large part is not how it is presented in the media. People need to look behind the curtain and see what really it is about. You just might be surprised
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Post by BeenThere...DoneThat... on Aug 4, 2011 11:05:35 GMT -5
The ultimate macro-expression of "socialism" is the nation's Military... the combined assets of the nation's taxpayers support salaries for military personnel, pensions for military retirees, even food, shelter and clothing for service personnel... ... They even (at least used to) have extra pay if you have a spouse and larger living quarters based on size of family. ...well, you do get to add your dependents to the group plan for health benefits... and they do assign the post quarters with more bedrooms to soldiers with more kids... and many, maybe most, of officers quarters are "nicer" than enlisted's... but private industry provides these same types of benes, so I don't see how that would serve as an argument in this discussion... ...speaking of which, bills... so you agree that the ultimate macro-expression of socialism is the nation's military?
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safeharbor37
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Post by safeharbor37 on Aug 4, 2011 11:09:47 GMT -5
That is what's meant by collectivist. That is, those who do not distinguish between the government and the people. - - Of course. The military is the government [except for the Montana Militia or the like]. Everything the government does is "socialism." That's what "socialism" is. The "private sector" is where capitalism is ~ and don't run the "government capitalism" thing because that's fascism, just another form of "socialism."
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Post by Mkitty is pro kitty on Aug 4, 2011 11:40:36 GMT -5
Another case of "I can't admit to (because you know, Conservatives can't admit to anything) the extremists of my side of the political spectrum so I everything on the other side" cluelessism.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 4, 2011 19:39:53 GMT -5
Another case of "I can't admit to (because you know, Conservatives can't admit to anything) the extremists of my side of the political spectrum so I everything on the other side" cluelessism. totally.
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Post by BeenThere...DoneThat... on Aug 4, 2011 22:28:17 GMT -5
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Aug 4, 2011 22:31:38 GMT -5
... ...speaking of which, bills... so you agree that the ultimate macro-expression of socialism is the nation's military? No. Socialism is the communal ownership of the means of production. The military doesn't produce anything.
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Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger
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Post by Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger on Aug 4, 2011 23:33:07 GMT -5
That's exactly it bills, the capitalistic system products the systems/weapons for the military. It's still nowhere near 50%. 30% of Quebecers pay no income tax, and the latest figures I can find show about 33.4% of Canadians overall pay no income taxes. What I said was "We have 50% not really paying any taxes". So 33% pay NO tax and the other 17% of that 50% pay around 5%. The other 50% pay 95% of the taxes, of which around 66% is paid by the top 30% of income earners. Again it's called liberal capitalism. WE are our brothers keepers, get it? Beenthere, you can absolutely expect too much health care, it's called "i sneezed, i think I might be dying, I better go to the doctor."
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Aug 5, 2011 1:20:28 GMT -5
That's exactly it bills, the capitalistic system products the systems/weapons for the military. ... That is not "exactly it". The capitalistic system doesn't produce anything. It is simply a system. Because we have a capitalistic system in the United States, it is privately owned enterprises which produce the systems/weapons (and profit quite nicely). If we made a socialistic system, it would be communally owned enterprises which produce the systems/weapons.
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Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger
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Post by Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger on Aug 5, 2011 2:10:41 GMT -5
True, thanks for expanding, and saving me the time later.
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Post by BeenThere...DoneThat... on Aug 5, 2011 12:15:19 GMT -5
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Post by BeenThere...DoneThat... on Aug 8, 2011 14:35:20 GMT -5
...surely I didn't scare weltz or shirina away?
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Don Perignon
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Post by Don Perignon on Aug 8, 2011 15:27:27 GMT -5
"The military doesn't produce anything. " Untrue. The military produces casualties, pensioners and deficit spending on over-priced "Weapons Systems". Why, without the military, Raytheon might have to produce small appliances, in competition with Asian manufacturers (and we all have a pretty good idea how THAT would turn out for Raytheon's shareholders...)
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Aug 8, 2011 16:00:16 GMT -5
...surely I didn't scare weltz or shirina away? I am pretty sure you are not a blip on their radar.
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Post by BeenThere...DoneThat... on Aug 8, 2011 19:25:54 GMT -5
...surely I didn't scare weltz or shirina away? I am pretty sure you are not a blip on their radar. ...I'm pretty sure that YOU love me, though...
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