mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Aug 2, 2011 15:44:29 GMT -5
I'm pretty laid back, as well, floridayankee. I couldn't give a yank what another thinks of me, and there's little that will get to me. I'm well aware I'm in charge of my own emotions. Nobody can get to me unless I let them. It sure makes life one heck of a lot easier, doesn't it?
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Aug 2, 2011 15:46:18 GMT -5
Please, call me weltz....it's a lot easier.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Aug 2, 2011 15:49:09 GMT -5
"a cousin of mine lived in Moscow for over 10 years)."
And??? I have lots of cousins who still live in Moscow. And Odessa, and St. Petersburg and Siberia. What I'm saying weltschmerz is that living in Moscow for a year doesn't make you an expert on communism, but it does give you first hand information on communism. It doesn't give you information about European socialism though because they are totally different. If anything I would think that your living in Moscow would shade your view somewhat because most civilized countries would probably be better. I know that living in Europe made me appreciate coming back to the U.S. a LOT more. So much more in fact that I wouldn't want to move back to Europe or adopt a European government here. Europe is a great place to visit as long as you don't have to make a living there or put up with their health care system. I found living abroad to be quite enjoyable, oldtex. Moscow, I wasn't too crazy about (didn't live there, but did visit a couple of times), but I love St. Petersburg (it was still Leningrad then). The different lifestyles take some adaptation, yes; however, I'm a pretty adaptable kind of person. There's much to be learned, and there's good things everywhere, if one seeks them out. It's up to us to make ourselves happy wherever we find ourselves, and I think all people feel proud of their countries, just as we do. After all, it's HOME, isn't it? Home may be where one hangs one's hat, but HOME is a different animal.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 2, 2011 17:57:47 GMT -5
mmhmm for me it's the people that make or break the experience. I'm not a big sight seeing type but I did take the kids around to see a lot of stuff just in case they remembered it. Anyway I've found that most people that I met were really great with the exception of the big cities (same is true for big cities here).
It's funny but the most memorable things for me were small things. Stuff like worn concrete steps, that you just wouldn't see here. Oh & I was fascinated at one of the war museums where I saw a plane made out of corrugated metal. It looked like the stuff you make barn roofs out of (because it was).
Then there just the different way they do things. I couldn't believe that I could have beer delivered to my house or could just walk out & buy it from a truck that came around every week. Heck I spent an hour one evening having a beer & watching a guy replace broken roof tiles on the roof across from me. Real low teck, all he used was a ladder to get up & then worked his way up stepping where he took out a tile. Same was true for laying a new brick street, just fascinating. Two guys with a mallet, sand, & bricks.
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Don Perignon
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Post by Don Perignon on Aug 2, 2011 20:32:51 GMT -5
The ultimate expression of "socialist ideals" can be seen in (non-dysfunctional) FAMILIES. Genuine "Parents" don't breed children just to create a pool of indebted servants... not nowadays. The archaic patriarchal/monarchic model is no longer viable (unless you're a Wahabist with a harem).
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Post by ed1066 on Aug 3, 2011 1:03:11 GMT -5
The ultimate expression of "socialist ideals" can be seen in (non-dysfunctional) FAMILIES. Genuine "Parents" don't breed children just to create a pool of indebted servants... not nowadays. The archaic patriarchal/monarchic model is no longer viable (unless you're a Wahabist with a harem). Great analogy!
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Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger
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Post by Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger on Aug 3, 2011 1:49:05 GMT -5
...welcome to the fray, ahamburger... and thanks for chiming in... Thanks beenthere, and NP! "Douglas graduated from Brandon College in 1930, and completed his Master's degree (M.A.) in Sociology from McMaster University in 1933. His thesis entitled The Problems of the Subnormal Family endorsed eugenics.[12][13] The thesis proposed a system that would have required couples seeking to marry to be certified as mentally and morally fit. Those deemed to be "subnormal" because of low intelligence, moral laxity or venereal disease would be sent to state farms or camps while those judged to be mentally defective or incurably diseased would be sterilized.[14]" Seriously? That was almost a hundred years ago. Things were very different then. It's like saying that the Constitution should be scrapped, because some of the founding fathers had slaves. Tommy Douglas is one of my heroes....he worked tirelessly to ensure that everyone had acess to healthcare, even the poor. Seriously? I guess since what the National Socialist Party did in Germany was almost a hundred years ago, we should just be over that too, eh? This is also the reason, BTW, that Tommy D hid that fact that his Master Thesis was on eugenetics.. Also I'm not suprosed that Tommy D is one of your heros.. Lets see here, what has this great man's legacy of free health care for all left us? The health care time bomb www2.macleans.ca/2010/04/12/the-health-care-time-bomb/ Backing that up.. In Quebec, health care is no longer a free ride www.theglobeandmail.com/news/opinions/in-quebec-health-care-is-no-longer-a-free-ride/article1524015/ The best part about all this. Tommy D's great political party is now... NDP may drop ‘socialism’ from party’s constitution news.nationalpost.com/2011/06/15/ndp-may-drop-‘socialism’-from-party’s-constitution/ Oh ya, and you can't SEE that constitution unless you give them money... NDP aims to stash its socialism in the closet www.thestarphoenix.com/business/aims+stash+socialism+closet/4955315/story.htmlAlso I have had this conversation before, as you can tell, I typed this for my NDP "friends" here is Sask.. How anyone thinks that socialism keeps greed out the picture is beyond me. To argue greed is to argue human nature, it's unavoidable. All we can try to do lessen the impact that it can have on others. It's really too bad that we have some focusing on building a bigger government, which requires MORE taxes. Canada has the soundest banking system in the WORLD, and we have the ability to lead in applying technology to carbon energy, that will lesson the impact on the environment dramatically. Make no mistake about it, everything that we enjoy today was because of economic self interest. Like the great Milton Friedman said.. "who are these political angles that we should appoint to dictate the will of others?". I agree, if YOU want to do something then by all means HELP. It's not the responsibly of the government to dictate WILL onto people, that isn't FREEDOM. Did you know that the US alone donates over 300 billion dollars a year? Those are all wealthy people giving money to help. Wealthy people give money, it's just that most refuse to believe that anyone with money has a heart. My suggestion to anyone who thinks that socialism is the answer; read some economics. Another great Milton Friedman quote: "Industrial progress, mechanical improvement, all of the great wonders of the modern era have meant relatively little to the wealthy. The rich in Ancient Greece would have benefitted hardly at all from modern plumbing : running servants replaced running water. Television and radio? The Patricians of Rome could enjoy the leading musicians and actors in their home, could have the leading actors as domestic retainers. Ready-to-wear clothing, supermarkets - all these and many other modern developments woul have added little to their life. The great achievements of Western Capitalism have redounded primarily to the benefit of the ordinary person. These achievements have made available to the masses conveniences and amenities that were previously the exclusive perogative of the rich and powerful." It's really sad that you think that Karl Marx wanted freedom. The USA was born from the want for freedom. The period from 1000-1700 Europe was one of enlightenment, and development. The revolutions from the kings and queens in the 1700's and the forming of a new country in this land is what gave us this freedom that we all enjoy. Karl Marx and Co. published The Communist Manifesto in 1848, socialism was to be the step that broke what NA had become. Banking and industry had become so strong by th mid 1840's that people were just turning to it as a solution to the corrupt old system of paying a power to control and maintain everything, and some people didn't like that. Coincidentally the monarchy system was kept in place through force, which is exactly what the commies did that were the first to adopt Engels and Marx's theory in full. That would be Russia during the second world war. Interestingly enough there is a teacher overseas that wants to group Nazism and Communism together and do a class in depth on the fact that both were a single party rule that force their people into their beliefs and ran concentration camps to fulfill their goals.(See why I think Douglas Subnormal Family planing is a big deal) We need our government to keep a lid on the greed that money can bring, make sure our streets our safe, and our constitution is upheld. That's about it. By 2030 65% of Quebec's Tax revenue will go to health care(all of which comes from the rest of Canada, that's 8 Billion a year people), this is unsustainable. Taxing and driving business out of Canada, is not the answer to our health care/economic issues. Finding better ways to fund it is.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 3, 2011 1:56:39 GMT -5
How anyone thinks that socialism keeps greed out the picture is beyond me To argue greed is to argue human nature, it's unavoidable..
i disagree with Freidman and others that think that our base impulses are somehow an unavoidable consequence of being human. it seems to me that human beings are endowed with minds for a reason- that they should be used. to not do so is a crime against God.
therefore, if we are confronted with a situation where we are assured of mutual destruction, i would hope that we would do the thing that would ensure our survival. the prisoner's dilemma predicts a logical outcome that is not necessarily part of human nature. the fact is that most people would actually prefer, in a situation where the outcome almost guarantees harm to another, to work together. the paranoic reasoning of John Nash may be the basis for a stable society, but it is not one that i want to live in. we can do better. we must do better, imo, if we are to not become part of the fossil record for the descendants of cockroaches to unearth.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Aug 3, 2011 1:57:30 GMT -5
"NDP aims to stash its socialism in the closet www.thestarphoenix.com/business/a....5315/story.htmlAlso I have had this conversation before, as you can tell, I typed this for my NDP "friends" here is Sask.. " Yes, I'm very well aware of the NDP and it's socialist overtones. I voted for them. I already admitted to being a socialist so your point would be what, exactly? I'm not about to smack myself on the forehead with cries of "OMG!! The NDP is socialist?? Who knew?"
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Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger
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Post by Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger on Aug 3, 2011 2:03:56 GMT -5
My point weltz is that socialism is finished, the govt's have no more money to spend. Ignore the rest of my points if you want, but you better get used to it. How anyone thinks that socialism keeps greed out the picture is beyond me To argue greed is to argue human nature, it's unavoidable.. i disagree with Freidman and others that think that our base impulses are somehow an unavoidable consequence of being human. it seems to me that human beings are endowed with minds for a reason- that they should be used. to not do so is a crime against God. therefore, if we are confronted with a situation where we are assured of mutual destruction, i would hope that we would do the thing that would ensure our survival. the prisoner's dilemma predicts a logical outcome that is not necessarily part of human nature. the fact is that most people would actually prefer, in a situation where the outcome almost guarantees harm to another, to work together. the paranoic reasoning of John Nash may be the basis for a stable society, but it is not one that i want to live in. we can do better. we must do better, imo, if we are to not become part of the fossil record for the descendants of cockroaches to unearth. Dj I think we think alike, I want to think that we are all good too, but when I hear today about a guy bashing another man head with a hammer over $100 rent money I know that these impulse are just part of our nature. We can overcome as a society, however, mental imbalances will always exist, IMO.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Aug 3, 2011 2:06:03 GMT -5
Furthermore, everybody in Quebec voted for the NDP. People turned out in droves to make their voices heard; mostly to to keep the Péquistes out of power. At this point we like the NDP. The Péquistes, we will kill and eat.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 3, 2011 2:07:27 GMT -5
"NDP aims to stash its socialism in the closet www.thestarphoenix.com/business/a....5315/story.htmlAlso I have had this conversation before, as you can tell, I typed this for my NDP "friends" here is Sask.. " Yes, I'm very well aware of the NDP and it's socialist overtones. I voted for them. I already admitted to being a socialist so your point would be what, exactly? I'm not about to smack myself on the forehead with cries of "OMG!! The NDP is socialist?? Who knew?" other countries have little or no stigma attached to socialism. that is because of America's unique brand of paranoia surrounding the Red Scare. there are a great number of things that stemmed from that- one of which is a rampant anti-statism, here. what i find interesting is that conservatism, which has railed against this particular brand of statism for over half a century, has never had it better- has never been in a clearer position of power in the post WW2 era- yet NOW, of all times, we hear more of the anti-socialist talk than any time since the 50's. i think there is a very good reason for this, but i don't think it is one that most conservatives want to hear. in the 60's and 70's, rational conservatives realized the danger of the rabid anti communists and systematically excluded them from discourse by marginalizing them. there was a very real hatred between people like Skousen and people like Buckley. Buckley saw these groups as a very real threat to the Republican party and also to the republic, in that they were very doctrinal and dogmatic, and not rational pragmatists. Buckley saw this as a danger to legislature, because uncompromising believers cannot be negotiated with, and therefore could grind government to a standstill. but as the century wore on, rational conservatism got significant pushback from these groups, to the point where Buckley himself, at the end of his life, was pushed out and marginalized by these same groups that he had successfully repressed for nearly half a century. the cat is clearly out of the bag now. without the rational leadership to push back against the idealists on the right, the GOP is going to have a very hard time governing. Boehner is only the first in a long list of casualties in this struggle- a struggle which demands utter capitulation.
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Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger
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Post by Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger on Aug 3, 2011 2:08:10 GMT -5
Furthermore, everybody in Quebec voted for the NDP. People turned out in droves to make their voices heard; mostly to to keep the Péquistes out of power. At this point we like the NDP. The Péquistes, we will kill and eat. Again, Ignore the points.. It's finished, kicking and screaming isn't going to change the fact there is no more money. I have to laugh while your defending socialist your party is dropping it, what does that tell you?
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Aug 3, 2011 2:10:22 GMT -5
"Ignore the rest of my points if you want, but you better get used to it."
Lol! Cute. I will steel myself for the eventuality that you will post at me again. Thanks for the heads-up.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 3, 2011 2:10:51 GMT -5
My point weltz is that socialism is finished, the govt's have no more money to spend. Ignore the rest of my points if you want, but you better get used to it. How anyone thinks that socialism keeps greed out the picture is beyond me To argue greed is to argue human nature, it's unavoidable.. i disagree with Freidman and others that think that our base impulses are somehow an unavoidable consequence of being human. it seems to me that human beings are endowed with minds for a reason- that they should be used. to not do so is a crime against God. therefore, if we are confronted with a situation where we are assured of mutual destruction, i would hope that we would do the thing that would ensure our survival. the prisoner's dilemma predicts a logical outcome that is not necessarily part of human nature. the fact is that most people would actually prefer, in a situation where the outcome almost guarantees harm to another, to work together. the paranoic reasoning of John Nash may be the basis for a stable society, but it is not one that i want to live in. we can do better. we must do better, imo, if we are to not become part of the fossil record for the descendants of cockroaches to unearth. Dj I think we think alike, I want to think that we are all good too, but when I hear today about a guy bashing another man head with a hammer over $100 rent money I know that these impulse are just part of our nature. We can overcome as a society, however, mental imbalances will always exist, IMO. i think the animal part of us is very real and very dangerous. my point about Freidman is that he sounds like an apologist for that irrational side of ourselves. i would prefer that our leaders appeal to something better in us than our desire to screw each other over for the last scrap of food.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Aug 3, 2011 2:11:41 GMT -5
"I have to laugh while your defending socialist your party is dropping it, what does that tell you? "
Excuse me?
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Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger
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Post by Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger on Aug 3, 2011 2:13:29 GMT -5
"Ignore the rest of my points if you want, but you better get used to it." Lol! Cute. I will steel myself for the eventuality that you will post at me again. Thanks for the heads-up. I don't have to, the fact your ignoring the fact that health care has cripples Quebec, and now the deflections have proved my point to the rational people. Have a good one.
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Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger
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Post by Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger on Aug 3, 2011 2:15:42 GMT -5
My point weltz is that socialism is finished, the govt's have no more money to spend. Ignore the rest of my points if you want, but you better get used to it. Dj I think we think alike, I want to think that we are all good too, but when I hear today about a guy bashing another man head with a hammer over $100 rent money I know that these impulse are just part of our nature. We can overcome as a society, however, mental imbalances will always exist, IMO. i think the animal part of us is very real and very dangerous. my point about Freidman is that he sounds like an apologist for that irrational side of ourselves. i would prefer that our leaders appeal to something better in us than our desire to screw each other over for the last scrap of food. I don't think he is an apologist, just doesn't want to discount what human nature is. I think he makes great points about history and how much Free enterprise has helped the common person.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 3, 2011 2:41:10 GMT -5
burger- i am too tired to continue. have a good night.
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Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger
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Post by Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger on Aug 3, 2011 2:48:21 GMT -5
Ya you too. Take care!
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floridayankee
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Post by floridayankee on Aug 3, 2011 7:19:30 GMT -5
I'm pretty laid back, as well, floridayankee. I couldn't give a yank what another thinks of me, and there's little that will get to me. I'm well aware I'm in charge of my own emotions. Nobody can get to me unless I let them. It sure makes life one heck of a lot easier, doesn't it? It sure does! I've been to the Canadian side of the Niagra falls. That's as far outside my country as I've been. About the only other places I care to visit these days would be the Caribbean Islands.
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Shirina
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Post by Shirina on Aug 3, 2011 8:25:26 GMT -5
And again, no one seems to ask themselves "why?" Instead, people are more worried about treating the symptoms rather than curing the disease. It should be alarming that even wealthy nations cannot afford even partially socialized medicine, and what people SHOULD be asking is: Why is it so damned expensive? People should be outraged at the runaway costs the health care industry inflicts upon us rather than storming the poor with torches and pitchforks or hiding behind empty ideologies like socialism and capitalism.
One does not need a crystal ball or a ouija board to predict what domino will fall next. If governments cannot afford health care for its citizens, it will only be a matter of time before businesses cannot afford health care for its employees. In fact, this reality is already beginning to nibble away at the edges of capitalism since employees are constantly being asked to pay more per check for their health plans while actual coverage is being reduced.
Even with employer plans, per-month premiums are skyrocketing, and an ever increasing number of people are being priced out of health care completely. Either that, or they are paying premiums they really can't afford - thus debt isn't being paid down, it's impossible to accrue savings, college funds for the kids are no longer viable, and they're sure not stimulating the economy since the lion's share of their disposable income is going to health care costs even when they're not sick.
Worse still is a large percentage of health care costs are a result of the administrative side of the industry, not the actual practice of treating the sick. The medical industry's bureaucracy is just as bloated and redundant as the government's, yet if you look at job listings for any city, you'll find literally hundreds of open positions for health care pencil pushers.
So where will everyone be when neither the government nor businesses can afford to pay for, or help pay for, the average citizen's health care? Of course, the entire cost will come out of our pockets. Between paying on debt and paying for insurance premiums, it'll be a wonder if we have much of a functioning economy at all. Since businesses both large and small rely on consumerism to maintain their economic viability, the amount we pay in things like gas, health care, energy, and debt has a serious impact on how much consumerism there actually is.
This only serves to exacerbate the already existing problem since the less money businesses make via consumerism, the more difficult it is for them to afford continuation of effective health care plans for their employees.
And let's not forget the OTHER eight-hundred pound gorilla in the room: retirement. Since the idea of pensions no longer applies in our society, people are now forced to not only pay increasing amounts for health care, they must also make enough money to plan for their own retirement. All of this during a time when wages are stagnating and businesses aren't hiring. In fact, they still engage in massive lay-offs.
The road we're on is obvious. People have been saying for decades that our way of life is unsustainable, that consumer-driven economics was doomed. Now we're seeing the first of many death throes. Welfare, the poor, etc., they're all nothing more than scapegoats, and while we could pull the carpet out from beneath their feet, that's akin to putting a band-aid on a bullet wound. It might buy some time - a decade perhaps - but until we, as a society, begin clamping down on runaway prices and the need for greed - to always want more, more, more money - civilization as we know it is on life support. Too bad there won't be enough money to pay for it.
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safeharbor37
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Post by safeharbor37 on Aug 3, 2011 13:33:06 GMT -5
The reason that health care is expensive and getting more expensive is that we get more of it than we did and are getting even more and better health care. Unfortunately, those too stupid to understand this are trying to legislate it. You can't achieve something simply by legislating it. If you want more of something with better quality it's likely to cost more. Passing a law doesn't change reality.
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Post by Shirina on Aug 3, 2011 13:46:45 GMT -5
Of course things like the American citizens subsidizing the rest of the world's R&D costs so everyone else can buy prescriptions at half our cost has nothing to do with it.
Yeah, we're getting more health care, but one has to ask how much of it is necessary. I sometimes wonder if health care would actually be more cost effective if we removed insurance companies from the equation and everyone had to pay for it out of pocket. Then the medical industry could only charge what the public is capable of paying, not what the insurance companies are capable of paying. I bet that would bring the costs down to a reasonable level. But when doctors are charging $400 to insurance companies just to ask the patient a handful of questions (which happened to my father), prices can continue to be outrageous.
Perhaps then we would see more people like Jonas Sauk, who felt he had enough money and gave the polio vaccine to the world - instead of patenting it and charging thousands of dollars for a cheaply made vaccine. You know ... an actual CURE instead of an expensive life-long treatment or pill regimen that costs more per month than a person's house and car payments combined.
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floridayankee
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Post by floridayankee on Aug 3, 2011 14:05:02 GMT -5
Yeah, we're getting more health care, but one has to ask how much of it is necessary. I sometimes wonder if health care would actually be more cost effective if we removed insurance companies from the equation and everyone had to pay for it out of pocket. I'm sure it would. Imagine the cost for an auto insurance policy that paid for oil changes and new tires.
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Shirina
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Post by Shirina on Aug 3, 2011 14:11:22 GMT -5
An oil change would probably cost $300.
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Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger
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Post by Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger on Aug 4, 2011 1:50:56 GMT -5
I know exactly why, in my country at least. We have 50% not really paying any taxes, and people running to the doctor for every sniffle, because it's "free." The aging population is a big part of where the extra costs are also coming from. The best medicine is preventative medicine, IMO. A lot of corporations are apparently promoting this. The better you take care of yourself, the better change you have at not getting sick. Life, LIBERTY[/u] and the pursuit of happiness. Free enterprise= Liberal Capitalism, IMO. Focus on solutions, like really making it a point through Facebook ,twitter, and whatever else you want to make sure these guys give back. Warren Buffett Gifts Bill Foundation 10 Million Shares www.gev.com/2011/07/warren-buffett-gifts-bill-foundation-10-million-shares/ Like this.. Bill Gates backs Loughborough University toilet scheme www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leicestershire-14371606
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Aug 4, 2011 2:32:13 GMT -5
"I know exactly why, in my country at least. We have 50% not really paying any taxes"
Which taxes are you referring to?
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Aug 4, 2011 2:35:51 GMT -5
We pay tax upon tax upon tax on just about everything. So I have to take your statement of "50% of Canadians don't really pay taxes" with an entire shaker of salt.
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Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger
Senior Associate
Viva La Revolucion!
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 22:22:04 GMT -5
Posts: 12,758
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Post by Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger on Aug 4, 2011 2:46:32 GMT -5
"I know exactly why, in my country at least. We have 50% not really paying any taxes" Which taxes are you referring to? That would be federal and province income tax, the main source of income for health care. Goodnight.
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