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Post by ed1066 on Jul 25, 2011 16:40:47 GMT -5
Good luck guys! www.salon.com/news/budget_showdown/index.html?story=/tech/htww/2011/07/25/george_bush_owns_the_deficitTalk about your left-wing blogger link bait! On Sunday, the New York Times published a chart demonstrating the relative contributions to the deficit made by George W. Bush and Barack Obama. Short version: The total cost of new policies initiated during the administration of George Bush: $5.07 trillion. Barack Obama: $1.44 trillion.
Bush's tax cuts and the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq are the obvious big-ticket items. The tax cuts, in particular, are the structural-deficit-gift that keeps on giving. As the New York Times observes, if all of the Bush tax cuts "expired as scheduled at the end of 2012, future deficits would be cut by about half, to sustainable levels."
Or, as James Fallows puts it more acidly, "It demonstrates the utter incoherence of being very concerned about a structural federal deficit but ruling out of consideration the policy that was largest single contributor to that deficit, namely the Bush-era tax cuts.
But this is not, by any stretch of the imagination, news. Nor is there any evidence that promulgating this information has any effect on the political process or on popular opinion. And there's a very good reason for this: The debt ceiling is not a fight about the deficit. It's a fight over power and the size of government.
"Utter incoherence" becomes entirely coherent when one considers that Republican strategy is founded on two things: neutering Obama and rolling back the welfare state. Tax cuts are always good, because eventually they starve the beast. That's how to make sense of the seemingly contradictory actions of a party that just eight months ago voted for a package of tax cuts raising the annual deficit by about $200 billion turning around and suddenly declaring that the deficit is the greatest existential threat the nation faces. How else can we explain Republicans' turning down huge deficit reduction deals, and then settling on a strategy -- a short-term debt ceiling hike -- whose only real attraction is that it directly contravenes the president's oft-expressed desire for a long-term hike? The point is not to fix government finances; it's to deny Obama anything he can call a victory while at the same time slashing the size of government so as to ensure that rich people pay low taxes.
An infinite number of charts pointing out who caused the deficit will never change that dynamic. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2011 17:26:03 GMT -5
And the outcome of the election will depend on how many people believe them.
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Post by djAdvocate on Jul 25, 2011 18:03:33 GMT -5
And the outcome of the election will depend on how many people believe them. most people still blame Bush for the trouble we are in, and i think that there is some justification for that. but i don't think it will win the election for Obama. he ran on getting us out of this mess. if unemployment is still above where he started (7.6%), and consumers are still crying in their hats, i think he will lose. |
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Gardening Grandma
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Post by Gardening Grandma on Jul 25, 2011 19:22:02 GMT -5
And the outcome of the election will depend on how many people believe them. most people still blame Bush for the trouble we are in, and i think that there is some justification for that. but i don't think it will win the election for Obama. he ran on getting us out of this mess. if unemployment is still above where he started (7.6%), and consumers are still crying in their hats, i think he will lose. Against who? Bachman? ;D Romney? Think the base will turn out the voters for him? Pawlenty? |
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verrip1
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Post by verrip1 on Jul 25, 2011 20:58:33 GMT -5
'Anybody but a Republican' won the last Presidential election. Why should 'anybody but Obama' be so hard to accept? It's a trend!  |
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jul 25, 2011 21:34:43 GMT -5
most people still blame Bush for the trouble we are in, and i think that there is some justification for that. but i don't think it will win the election for Obama. he ran on getting us out of this mess. if unemployment is still above where he started (7.6%), and consumers are still crying in their hats, i think he will lose. Against who? Bachman? ;D Romney? Think the base will turn out the voters for him? Pawlenty? all your base are belong to us |
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Post by BeenThere...DoneThat... on Jul 25, 2011 21:39:10 GMT -5
Against who? Bachman? ;D Romney? Think the base will turn out the voters for him? Pawlenty? all your base are belong to us ...where is this quote from? "all your base are belong to us" ...it's the second time I've seen it recently, and I'm curious...  |
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handyman2
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Post by handyman2 on Jul 25, 2011 22:52:03 GMT -5
The old blame Bush horse won't ride any longer. It reminds me of a kid who threw a rock through a window and says it was not my fault the window was in the way.
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SweetVirginia
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Post by SweetVirginia on Jul 25, 2011 22:56:51 GMT -5
The old blame Bush horse won't ride any longer. It reminds me of a kid who threw a rock through a window and says it was not my fault the window was in the way. Funny, that seem to work for a lot of the right wingers after 9 11, when they tried to blame Pres. Clinton for the attack, It also worked for Reagan when he blamed the economy on the Carter inheritance. And lets not forget how the righties gave Bush the CREDIT, almost 3 years out of office, for the killing of Bin Laden. |
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jul 25, 2011 23:26:54 GMT -5
all your base are belong to us ...where is this quote from? "all your base are belong to us" ...it's the second time I've seen it recently, and I'm curious... it is from this japanese video game, which is translated so poorly it is hilarious. |
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Post by ed1066 on Jul 25, 2011 23:42:52 GMT -5
Against who? Bachman? ;D Romney? Think the base will turn out the voters for him? Pawlenty? all your base are belong to us Man! I've been wanting to use AYBABTU on this board! You got it first...Well played sir! |
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ameiko
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Post by ameiko on Jul 26, 2011 5:20:51 GMT -5
Ahh yes, more Democrat lies.
The worst deficit Bush had, off the top of my head was about 400-500 billion. Now that SUCKS but it was coming down to 160 billion as of 2007... and then the Democrats came to power in Congress and, along with their allies in the media and the sub prime mortgages they strong armed banks into making crashed the economy.
Under Obama, they have EXPLODED the deficit to about 1.6 trillion or TEN TIMES HIGHER!!! That's about 4 TRILLION over the last 2.5 years, not the 1.4 that the Democrats are claiming.
As for whining about the Bush tax cuts, well they are now the Obama tax cuts since he agreed to extend them. Also, the ones that went for the "rich" (over 200K for singles) are, at most, only 5% of the current deficit (80 billion) if you think that tax hikes actually raise revenues. Spending is the other 95%! Indeed, tax rates have stayed consistent since 2007 but the deficit has increased by 1.44 trillion- that's all spending!
As for the wars, they are America's wars and Obama become responsible for them when he became President. You see, that's what a President does but that is never what Obama had to be: responsible for a single thing. Mr "Community Organizer" can't even point out a neighborhood that he made better and people made him President!!!!
In the end, even if you accept their whining that it's all Bush's fault (i.e. the wars started under Bush who was defending his nation and acting as a President) and the tax cuts, then how the heck do they justify:
1. increasing the deficit by 700 billion each year
2. agreeing to extend the Bush tax cuts
3. that Democrats, Obama included, voted to fund the wars since the beginning
Talk about creative accounting!!! Hey I think the GOP should start claiming that their deficits are due to Democrats since it is their entitlement programs (SS, Medicare, etc..) that has helped grow the government to the nightmare levels it is as well as create an obligation debt of over 100 trillion dollars!
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Post by ameiko on Jul 26, 2011 5:22:47 GMT -5
most people still blame Bush for the trouble we are in, and i think that there is some justification for that. but i don't think it will win the election for Obama. he ran on getting us out of this mess. if unemployment is still above where he started (7.6%), and consumers are still crying in their hats, i think he will lose. Against who? Bachman? ;D Romney? Think the base will turn out the voters for him? Pawlenty? His base will either vote for Obama or stay home in disgust, just as some of the base voted for McCain and others refused to hold their nose and vote. It's the battle for the independents and I think that they will look at an incompetent man child who is still blaming his predecessor 4 years later and decide that he can't get the job done and vote in someone else. |
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Post by ameiko on Jul 26, 2011 5:26:24 GMT -5
The old blame Bush horse won't ride any longer. It reminds me of a kid who threw a rock through a window and says it was not my fault the window was in the way. Funny, that seem to work for a lot of the right wingers after 9 11, when they tried to blame Pres. Clinton for the attack, It also worked for Reagan when he blamed the economy on the Carter inheritance. And lets not forget how the righties gave Bush the CREDIT, almost 3 years out of office, for the killing of Bin Laden. 1. Without a doubt, the seeds for the 9/11 attack were planted under Clinton: his tepid responses to attacks on the USS Cole and our embassies lead to planning to strike on 9/11 that began under him. 2. Was Reagan blaming Carter in his second election or first? In the former case, you have a point but in the latter, then Reagan does since how can Reagan fix anything where he's just getting there? 3. Bush helped lay the ground work. Heck, in the first post, the Democrats are planning the Afghanistan war on the GOP (even though they too voted fo fund it) and thus admitting that they would not have struck back against the terrorists nor created the conditions that lead to the shooting. NEXT! |
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Post by djAdvocate on Jul 26, 2011 11:09:31 GMT -5
Ahh yes, more Democrat lies. The worst deficit Bush had, off the top of my head was about 400-500 billion. Now that SUCKS but it was coming down to 160 billion as of 2007... and then the Democrats came to power in Congress and, along with their allies in the media and the sub prime mortgages they strong armed banks into making crashed the economy. wrong. the worst deficit Bush had was the 2009 budget, which was $1.2T in the red before Obama took office. therefore, Obama's $1.6T is not 10x higher, but 1.25x higher than Bush's worst. |
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Jul 26, 2011 11:24:25 GMT -5
Ahh yes, more Democrat lies. The worst deficit Bush had, off the top of my head was about 400-500 billion. Now that SUCKS but it was coming down to 160 billion as of 2007... and then the Democrats came to power in Congress and, along with their allies in the media and the sub prime mortgages they strong armed banks into making crashed the economy. wrong. the worst deficit Bush had was the 2009 budget, which was $1.2T in the red before Obama took office. therefore, Obama's $1.6T is not 10x higher, but 1.25x higher than Bush's worst. Stop interrupting ameiko's rants with actual facts. |
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Post by privateinvestor on Jul 26, 2011 11:25:48 GMT -5
Dems plan to win in 2012: Blame Bush again!
That does NOT seem to be a winning political strategy since it did NOT help much when the dems lost control of the House of Representatives... But then again many of them blamed both Bush and Obama for that shellacking..
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jul 26, 2011 11:34:18 GMT -5
wrong. the worst deficit Bush had was the 2009 budget, which was $1.2T in the red before Obama took office. therefore, Obama's $1.6T is not 10x higher, but 1.25x higher than Bush's worst. Stop interrupting ameiko's rants with actual facts. sorry. it is a sick compulsion. i apologize. |
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diamonds
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Post by diamonds on Jul 26, 2011 13:16:03 GMT -5
His base will either vote for Obama or stay home in disgust, just as some of the base voted for McCain and others refused to hold their nose and vote. It's the battle for the independents and I think that they will look at an incompetent man child who is still blaming his predecessor 4 years later and decide that he can't get the job done and vote in someone else. ameiko: K to you on your posts~ excellent!  |
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henryclay
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Post by henryclay on Jul 26, 2011 13:29:38 GMT -5
I didn't make this up, but I like it. I especially like the test at the end. Maybe it'd make a good bumber sticker. Short spelling lesson: The last four letters in American..........I Can
The last four letters in Republican........I Can
The last four letters in Democrats........Rats Test to follow in November, 2012 |
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ugonow
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Post by ugonow on Jul 26, 2011 13:36:16 GMT -5
lol..........
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zipity
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Post by zipity on Jul 26, 2011 15:19:35 GMT -5
Well if you're looking at the deficit, the Bush Tax cuts should be blamed. Afghanistan was necessary and should have been wrapped up in 2 years but that was impossible because Bush chose to invade Iraq and then mismanaged it. Every year of the tax cuts required us to sell bonds to cover the deficit. Those bonds are today effecting the current budget. Whether Obama wins or some republican wins next year's election, the US economy will still be feeling the effects of not raising taxes to meet our level of spend. No question, spending happened under Obama and whether or not you agree with that spending has a lot to do with your understanding of how seriously the economy was in trouble in 2008. Even Bush knew what had to be done which is why he initiated TARP spending. None of that really matters though, if the country defaults next week or it's credit rating is reduced from triple A it will be squarely on the shoulders of the republicans. The republicans will once again own the economy lock, stock and barrel. Obama wanted a $4+ trillion deficit reduction deal which would have save the AAA rating. The pubs fixation on no tax increases will cost us a lot of money.
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flopsy
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Post by flopsy on Jul 26, 2011 15:25:08 GMT -5
all your base are belong to us  |
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diamonds
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Post by diamonds on Jul 26, 2011 16:54:57 GMT -5
I didn't make this up, but I like it. I especially like the test at the end. Maybe it'd make a good bumber sticker. Short spelling lesson: The last four letters in American..........I Can
The last four letters in Republican........I Can
The last four letters in Democrats........Rats Test to follow in November, 2012 You rock Henry...k to you! |
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diamonds
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Post by diamonds on Jul 26, 2011 17:03:33 GMT -5
The pubs fixation on no tax increases will cost us a lot of money. {quote]
This is so wrong, Boehner had a plan all sewed up, Obama vetoed it! The blame falls on our leader. Political dysfunction and pandering erodes confidence of rating agencies and investors. It's a rolling disaster.
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Post by BeenThere...DoneThat... on Jul 26, 2011 17:18:43 GMT -5
...our good credit rating is all but lost... now what? |
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zipity
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Post by zipity on Jul 26, 2011 18:47:08 GMT -5
This is so wrong, Boehner had a plan all sewed up, Obama vetoed it!
Can't veto something that wasn't voted on and passed by the house and senate. Moving the goal posts is a weak way of saying that your opponent still wanted to negotiate.
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zipity
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Post by zipity on Jul 26, 2011 18:53:21 GMT -5
...our good credit rating is all but lost... now what?
We pay more in interest to borrow the money we need to pay off our debts. Bills get paid just like they would have if the credit ceiling had been raised on time but the added cost of the interest payments increase our deficit and debt. Way to go Tea Party.
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Post by BeenThere...DoneThat... on Jul 26, 2011 20:13:11 GMT -5
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diamonds
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Post by diamonds on Jul 26, 2011 20:36:10 GMT -5
And I am starting to blame Obama for letting them dismantle America. We will be screwed
And if some of you are holding Perry up in Texas because we have more jobs, remember half of those are only minimum wage jobs. See your future.
Obama came on TV and DID NOT have a plan except blaming everyone but himself for his ineffectiveness since he's been in office. He's supposed to be the leader of the Free World. Does he have a plan for job creation or stopping the madness of his excessive spending? Are the lending institutions going to free up money for small businesses or infrastructure? Taxing the rich is not the answer. At least Perry has more experience than a simple "community organizer". It was his plan from the beginning, if you remember right before his inauguration:"When I am President, I am going to change the United States of America". Looks like he's becoming successful with his wealth re-distribuiton philosophy of Socialism.
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