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Post by privateinvestor on Jul 20, 2011 9:25:14 GMT -5
Ever hear of Log Cabin Republicans P.I.? Yes I have heard of them...
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Jul 20, 2011 9:32:26 GMT -5
1. Brilliant in its simplicity... A. Back off and let those men who want to marry men, marry men. B. Allow those women who want to marry women, marry women. C. Allow those folks who want to abort their babies, abort their babies. D. In three generations, there will be no Democrats Just because the law says I can marry a woman, it doesn't mean I will or have any interest in it. And just because I can have an abortion, doesn't mean I will. And, of course, everyone grows up with the exact same political ideals and values as their parents.
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Post by privateinvestor on Jul 20, 2011 9:33:43 GMT -5
. In three generations, there will be no Democrats
Happy days are here again The skies above are clear again So let's sing a song of cheer again Happy days are here again
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Post by tea4me on Jul 20, 2011 10:24:01 GMT -5
Absolutely, misstequila. There is absolutely no sense in complaining about babies being born to people who can't afford them, then bitch about trying to do something about the problem. That, to me, is beyond comprehension. I am one that bitches about too many entitlements, yet I am all for birth control without a copay.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Jul 20, 2011 10:27:31 GMT -5
Good for you, tea4me. That tells me you're a thinking person rather than a follower, or a reactor; at least, that's the way I see it. This is simple common sense which, unfortunately, is no longer common.
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floridayankee
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Post by floridayankee on Jul 20, 2011 10:31:43 GMT -5
that is a very valid point, FY. the question you need to answer though, is would you rather pay for the BC, or either the abortion or care of the unwanted child? it's not an "if" but a "when". I'd actually prefer people take care of their own business and leave me the hell out of it. Think about it. People don't want to be told what to eat, when to exercise, what to drive, who to sleep with, who they can marry, what clothes to wear, etc...but they want me to pony up when they F-up? Stay out of my life but pay for my mistakes. Where is the fairness in that? As I said before...freedom of choice means freedom to make a bad choice (and all the consequences that come with that choice). It's a double edged sword and you simply cannot have one without the other.
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reasonfreedom
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Post by reasonfreedom on Jul 20, 2011 10:51:56 GMT -5
Absolutely, misstequila. There is absolutely no sense in complaining about babies being born to people who can't afford them, then bitch about trying to do something about the problem. That, to me, is beyond comprehension. I don't think it is about bitching about solutions, I think it is bitching about having to pay for other peoples stupidity. Look, if you don't want to have children, don't have sex it is that simple. BC is not 100% accurate, but not having sex is. If you have sex and don't expect kids then your a complete moron. Stupid is stupid and I have to deal with it in everyday life, why should I have to pay more for supporting it?
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Jul 20, 2011 11:03:28 GMT -5
I didn't say it was bitching about solutions, reasonfreedom. I said it was bitching without solutions. There's a big difference. Telling people not to have children if they can't afford them looks real good, but it doesn't work. Biology and the inclination of people to follow biological urges has shown us that, unequivocally. The choice becomes whether to try to contain the problem proactively by paying for the co-pays charged for birth control, or paying for it by supporting the babies born because none was used. Just saying people should accept their own responsibility isn't going to change a darned thing.
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reasonfreedom
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Post by reasonfreedom on Jul 20, 2011 11:07:20 GMT -5
I didn't say it was bitching about solutions, reasonfreedom. I said it was bitching without solutions. There's a big difference. Telling people not to have children if they can't afford them looks real good, but it doesn't work. Biology and the inclination of people to follow biological urges has shown us that, unequivocally. The choice becomes whether to try to contain the problem proactively by paying for the co-pays charged for birth control, or paying for it by supporting the babies born because none was used. Just saying people should accept their own responsibility isn't going to change a darned thing. So your saying people have to have sex because of genetics? Please say you are not.
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flopsy
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Post by flopsy on Jul 20, 2011 11:09:05 GMT -5
Look, if you don't want to have children, don't have sex it is that simple.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Jul 20, 2011 11:13:55 GMT -5
I didn't say it was bitching about solutions, reasonfreedom. I said it was bitching without solutions. There's a big difference. Telling people not to have children if they can't afford them looks real good, but it doesn't work. Biology and the inclination of people to follow biological urges has shown us that, unequivocally. The choice becomes whether to try to contain the problem proactively by paying for the co-pays charged for birth control, or paying for it by supporting the babies born because none was used. Just saying people should accept their own responsibility isn't going to change a darned thing. So your saying people have to have sex because of genetics? Please say you are not. I'm saying sex is a biologically programmed urge in all living things, including people. Can it be resisted? Of course it can. However, it rarely is. Telling people to do so isn't going to do any good at all.
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reasonfreedom
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Post by reasonfreedom on Jul 20, 2011 11:21:21 GMT -5
So your saying people have to have sex because of genetics? Please say you are not. I'm saying sex is a biologically programmed urge in all living things, including people. Can it be resisted? Of course it can. However, it rarely is. Telling people to do so isn't going to do any good at all. Hey look because those people can't resist their urges from the lack of intelligence or self-control, then I will be damned if I give them one dime to support their incapability. Like I said before I prefer not to support stupid and I will add weak minded to that too.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Jul 20, 2011 11:44:29 GMT -5
Fine, reasonfreedom. What do you propose to do with the resultant babies? Shall they starve to death?
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reasonfreedom
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Post by reasonfreedom on Jul 20, 2011 12:14:22 GMT -5
Fine, reasonfreedom. What do you propose to do with the resultant babies? Shall they starve to death? As much as I dislike any child starving, dieing or being mistreated, the parents will be responsible. If you have a child learn to take care of him/her this includes mother and father. If you don't take care of him/her, then he/she should go to a state foster home where more than 50% of your income will be garnished to care for the child from the father and mother(bad choices have consequences). Think of it this way, a child doesn't touch a hot stove without being burned and you don't cover your child's hand with a flame retardant substance all of the time so they don't get burned. What you do is teach the child that it is hot and that it will burn if you touch it. It is all common sense, which obviously has left the human race in a lump sum. People have to learn that children are the greatest responsibility in the world and that children is the result of having sex. Another lovely analogy, say if you eat peanuts and they give you headaches. You find this wonderful medicine called aspirin that takes care of your headaches. If you keep eating the peanuts and taking the aspirin, eventually one of them are more than likely going to do some sever health damage. Same thing with this birth control issue, if you give it away for free more and more people will use it and it will cost the people more and more money which will make us all financially indentured slaves or we can keep all of the resultant babies and become over populated possibly causing bigger issues than babies starving. You know we could just keep it the way it is and have a balance between both ideas. Of course it is a complicated situation, but once you start giving somebody entitlements that they didn't earn, the more entitlements they will want in the future. Seriously if they are not smart enough to not have sex, then they won't be smart enough to not want more free entitlements.
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Abby Normal
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Post by Abby Normal on Jul 20, 2011 12:26:03 GMT -5
There is absolutely no sense in complaining about babies being born to people who can't afford them, then bitch about trying to do something about the problem. That, to me, is beyond comprehension.
So if all BC is free- then there is no excuse a woman shouldn't be on it. Can they add a rule that says if you're not on BC, your not entititled to Welfare if you get pregnant. There'd be no excuse not to be on it. I'd be all for that.
Now if you're on it, and still get pregnant- that is another story.
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handyman2
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Post by handyman2 on Jul 20, 2011 12:37:45 GMT -5
Human nature being what it is, there are some peoples who will be irresponsible no matter what. Unwanted babies are born every day. So give them the pills for free. But will it solve anything? I doubt it. They are not responsible now, so how will dispensing free pills make them more responsible? My opinion it won't. nothing will be resolved.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Jul 20, 2011 12:40:43 GMT -5
I'd rather see pills given than no pills given, handy. If they won't remember to take the pills, there are other methods that could be used ... implants come to mind. The thing is, we need to do something.
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chiver78
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Post by chiver78 on Jul 20, 2011 13:02:46 GMT -5
Oy. I just saw a FB post from a very religious, very conservative friend down South on this topic. - just read that free birth control for women is sought from the healthcare overhaul. That's exactly what we need! Even more estrogen going thru the water supply and the excuse to avoid abstaining or Natural Family Planning. Lame. and yet you can't abort the unwanted pregnancy, nor is it acceptable to fund assistance programs to feed the children that are carried to term. I guess you can't win, no matter what you do.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Jul 20, 2011 13:05:11 GMT -5
Fine, reasonfreedom. What do you propose to do with the resultant babies? Shall they starve to death? As much as I dislike any child starving, dieing or being mistreated, the parents will be responsible. If you have a child learn to take care of him/her this includes mother and father. If you don't take care of him/her, then he/she should go to a state foster home where more than 50% of your income will be garnished to care for the child from the father and mother(bad choices have consequences). Think of it this way, a child doesn't touch a hot stove without being burned and you don't cover your child's hand with a flame retardant substance all of the time so they don't get burned. What you do is teach the child that it is hot and that it will burn if you touch it. It is all common sense, which obviously has left the human race in a lump sum. People have to learn that children are the greatest responsibility in the world and that children is the result of having sex. Another lovely analogy, say if you eat peanuts and they give you headaches. You find this wonderful medicine called aspirin that takes care of your headaches. If you keep eating the peanuts and taking the aspirin, eventually one of them are more than likely going to do some sever health damage. Same thing with this birth control issue, if you give it away for free more and more people will use it and it will cost the people more and more money which will make us all financially indentured slaves or we can keep all of the resultant babies and become over populated possibly causing bigger issues than babies starving. You know we could just keep it the way it is and have a balance between both ideas. Of course it is a complicated situation, but once you start giving somebody entitlements that they didn't earn, the more entitlements they will want in the future. Seriously if they are not smart enough to not have sex, then they won't be smart enough to not want more free entitlements. Frankly, I don't give a damned who is responsible for a baby starving. I'm much more concerned with the fact that the baby did, indeed, starve! Assessing blame isn't going to bring that baby back.
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floridayankee
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Post by floridayankee on Jul 20, 2011 13:48:36 GMT -5
I didn't say it was bitching about solutions, reasonfreedom. I said it was bitching without solutions. There's a big difference. Telling people not to have children if they can't afford them looks real good, but it doesn't work. The only reason it doesn't work is because we've removed too much of the risk of, and the consequence for, making poor decisions. This is what happens when you coddle people to protect them from their own stupidity.
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floridayankee
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Post by floridayankee on Jul 20, 2011 13:51:07 GMT -5
Human nature being what it is, there are some peoples who will be irresponsible no matter what. Unwanted babies are born every day. So give them the pills for free. Yeah...except there is one problem. Free to "them" does not equal free.
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Jul 20, 2011 14:01:38 GMT -5
and yet you can't abort the unwanted pregnancy, nor is it acceptable to fund assistance programs to feed the children that are carried to term. I guess you can't win, no matter what you do. And this is why I have a tough time with the conservative views on the subject. Don't give them sex-ed so they will know how to avoid pregnancy, don't let them have abortions when they do get pregnant through lack of education, then don't help care for the kid they couldn't afford, didn't want, & was conceived accidently. Talk about setting people up to fail!
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Jul 20, 2011 14:05:06 GMT -5
Human nature being what it is, there are some peoples who will be irresponsible no matter what. Unwanted babies are born every day. So give them the pills for free. Yeah...except there is one problem. Free to "them" does not equal free. True, but is the price of giving these pills away for free actually more costly than the births the pills help prevent. How much do you suppose it costs to have just one child born to someone poor? Including the labor costs, WIC, foodstamps, EITC, tax credits, medicaid & all the free well-baby checkups/vaccines, & a lifetime of another person potentially living off the system? I would argue birth control pills actually save us money when you look at the big picture.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 20, 2011 14:57:20 GMT -5
Considering that medicaid pays for roughly 37% of births in the U.S. and the growing cost of medicaid is part of our budget problem I'm all for BC being free. Medicaid and SCHIP also cover about 1/3 of children in the U.S. Pills are cheaper.
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chiver78
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Post by chiver78 on Jul 20, 2011 14:59:46 GMT -5
and yet you can't abort the unwanted pregnancy, nor is it acceptable to fund assistance programs to feed the children that are carried to term. I guess you can't win, no matter what you do. And this is why I have a tough time with the conservative views on the subject. Don't give them sex-ed so they will know how to avoid pregnancy, don't let them have abortions when they do get pregnant through lack of education, then don't help care for the kid they couldn't afford, didn't want, & was conceived accidently. Talk about setting people up to fail!
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floridayankee
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Post by floridayankee on Jul 20, 2011 15:06:29 GMT -5
and yet you can't abort the unwanted pregnancy, nor is it acceptable to fund assistance programs to feed the children that are carried to term. I guess you can't win, no matter what you do. And this is why I have a tough time with the conservative views on the subject. Don't give them sex-ed so they will know how to avoid pregnancy, don't let them have abortions when they do get pregnant through lack of education, then don't help care for the kid they couldn't afford, didn't want, & was conceived accidently. Talk about setting people up to fail! [/size][/quote] Sorry angel, but what a complete load of crap...Setting people up to fail? For christ sake, we're not talking about eating, drinking and breathing here...it's sex. It's a completely unnecessary function for personal survival and therefore can be avoided without endangering your life. If you are unable to control it, you should be prepared to live with the results of it. I don't find that a very difficult concept what-so-ever. Did you (no, not you personally) "find" yourself pregnant? It's your damned problem to deal with...not mine. I wasn't there directing....you alone set yourself up for failure, don't blame me.
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Jul 20, 2011 15:12:57 GMT -5
And this is why I have a tough time with the conservative views on the subject. Don't give them sex-ed so they will know how to avoid pregnancy, don't let them have abortions when they do get pregnant through lack of education, then don't help care for the kid they couldn't afford, didn't want, & was conceived accidently. Talk about setting people up to fail! [/size][/quote] Sorry angel, but what a complete load of crap...Setting people up to fail? For christ sake, we're not talking about eating, drinking and breathing here...it's sex. It's a completely unnecessary function for personal survival and therefore can be avoided without endangering your life. If you are unable to control it, you should be prepared to live with the results of it. I don't find that a very difficult concept what-so-ever. Did you (no, not you personally) "find" yourself pregnant? It's your damned problem to deal with...not mine. I wasn't there directing....you alone set yourself up for failure, don't blame me. [/quote] I agree, if we were to educate people on how pregnancy happens & how to successfully avoid pregnancy. The abstainance only education is a complete failure & you can't expect people to just know this stuff without teaching it to them. You know how many women end up pregnant because they thought it couldn't happen their first time, or during x time of the month, or didn't realize starting your next months supply of BC pills 3 days late is a really big no-no? Education would go a long way to helping these women avoid getting pregnant in the first place. If we don't teach them this stuff, then how are we not setting them up for failure?
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Abby Normal
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Post by Abby Normal on Jul 20, 2011 15:25:08 GMT -5
and yet you can't abort the unwanted pregnancy, nor is it acceptable to fund assistance programs to feed the children that are carried to term. I guess you can't win, no matter what you do. And this is why I have a tough time with the conservative views on the subject. Don't give them sex-ed so they will know how to avoid pregnancy, don't let them have abortions when they do get pregnant through lack of education, then don't help care for the kid they couldn't afford, didn't want, & was conceived accidently. Talk about setting people up to fail! Paying for all the labor costs, EITC, Food stamps, medicare etc as you mentioned- doesn't seem to be setting people up to succeed. Most conservatives I know- just want a little personal accountability for an individuals actions. Personally, I don't have a problem with a woman having an abortion. I'd rather see her have one, than have a child she doesn't want or can't to care for. But let's face it, unless you have your head in the sand, you know that pregnancy is consequence of having sex, and always a possiblitly. I mean really- are there people who really think you can get pregant from swimming in a pool? Why should I pay for someone else's decision about their own actions? I'm not saying that as a society would should not help those less fortunate. I'm asking "where does it stop? "
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reasonfreedom
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Post by reasonfreedom on Jul 20, 2011 15:28:38 GMT -5
As much as I dislike any child starving, dieing or being mistreated, the parents will be responsible. If you have a child learn to take care of him/her this includes mother and father. If you don't take care of him/her, then he/she should go to a state foster home where more than 50% of your income will be garnished to care for the child from the father and mother(bad choices have consequences). Think of it this way, a child doesn't touch a hot stove without being burned and you don't cover your child's hand with a flame retardant substance all of the time so they don't get burned. What you do is teach the child that it is hot and that it will burn if you touch it. It is all common sense, which obviously has left the human race in a lump sum. People have to learn that children are the greatest responsibility in the world and that children is the result of having sex. Another lovely analogy, say if you eat peanuts and they give you headaches. You find this wonderful medicine called aspirin that takes care of your headaches. If you keep eating the peanuts and taking the aspirin, eventually one of them are more than likely going to do some sever health damage. Same thing with this birth control issue, if you give it away for free more and more people will use it and it will cost the people more and more money which will make us all financially indentured slaves or we can keep all of the resultant babies and become over populated possibly causing bigger issues than babies starving. You know we could just keep it the way it is and have a balance between both ideas. Of course it is a complicated situation, but once you start giving somebody entitlements that they didn't earn, the more entitlements they will want in the future. Seriously if they are not smart enough to not have sex, then they won't be smart enough to not want more free entitlements. Frankly, I don't give a damned who is responsible for a baby starving. I'm much more concerned with the fact that the baby did, indeed, starve! Assessing blame isn't going to bring that baby back. What? ? That is just horrible logic. Ok, so if somebody kept on creating starving babies, you would sit there and worry and fret that the baby starved. That is ridiculous, what I would do if find the cause of the baby starving and resolve the problem before more babies starve. You can't go back in the past and feed the baby, you need to find out whom did it and punish them harshly to show others that it is not acceptable.
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reasonfreedom
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Post by reasonfreedom on Jul 20, 2011 15:31:53 GMT -5
And this is why I have a tough time with the conservative views on the subject. Don't give them sex-ed so they will know how to avoid pregnancy, don't let them have abortions when they do get pregnant through lack of education, then don't help care for the kid they couldn't afford, didn't want, & was conceived accidently. Talk about setting people up to fail! Paying for all the labor costs, EITC, Food stamps, medicare etc as you mentioned- doesn't seem to be setting people up to succeed. Most conservatives I know- just want a little personal accountability for an individuals actions. Personally, I don't have a problem with a woman having an abortion. I'd rather see her have one, than have a child she doesn't want or can't to care for. But let's face it, unless you have your head in the sand, you know that pregnancy is consequence of having sex, and always a possiblitly. I mean really- are there people who really think you can get pregant from swimming in a pool? Why should I pay for someone else's decision about their own actions? I'm not saying that as a society would should not help those less fortunate. I'm asking "where does it stop? " It stops when there is no more money to finish the railroad and the train de-rails, or of course some kind of astronomical event that just wipes human kind out.
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