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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2011 17:56:59 GMT -5
Talking about our goals, plans, profession, we got to the conversation how 85% of the couples we know (family/friends) the woman is earning or have the potential to earn more than her boyfriend/fiancee/husband.
And with more woman going to college, earning higher degrees and as driven (if not more) than their male counterparts, I guess it will not stop anytime soon.
In our close group we have: - My cousin an RN married to a taxi driver - My other cousin an RN married to a unemployed man with only high school degree - My wife cousin earning over 200K as a lawyer married to man earning about 1/4 of that (bachelors in psychology) - her other cousin with a masters from Columbia with a unemployed husband for the past 3 years. - Her best friend (our maid of honor) just graduated from medical school and about to get married to her high school sweet heart who is an auto mechanic.
I don't see it as being a problem, as long as the husband keep on bringing something to the table (income or staying home) it is all good.
My wife feels it might create some issues in the case of her best friend since she is somewhat old school and feels her husband should be able to support her and take care of her.
But do you think as time pass by the idea of the man having to be the breadwinner will go away? Or will girls still have dreams of their prince charming coming to take them away and take care of them?
I mean the other day just to joke around I told my mother and mother in law I planned to be a SAHD. They both looked at me like I was insane/crazy. yet they were both perfectly ok with the idea with my wife staying home to take care of the kids, even if she might be making more at the time we have kids. In my culture such a thing is unacceptable and you are considered less of a man for it.
Like my wife cousin: it made more sense for her as a lawyer to keep on working while her husband stayed home wiht the their 3 boys. By their calculations, they would be losing money if he went to work. My wife and his family were appaled by the idea and even now that he went back to work since all 3 are in school still hasn't forgotten or stop talking about it.
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Jul 1, 2011 18:03:45 GMT -5
I think it will take a while to gain widespread acceptance... another couple of generations, at least. I'm an attorney and DH is a HS graduate about a year into getting his AAS in auto technology. His "lack of" education is no indication of lack of intelligence... he's just not a desk-job type of person. The educational/pay disparity doesn't bother either of us. However, my mom has strong feelings about it which she made clear about 18 months after the wedding. I think she would have preferred I marry another attorney or at least someone with a college degree. It didn't work out so well for HER, but who knows her reasoning...
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2011 18:10:21 GMT -5
My daughter and her husband are in their 30s. She is a pharmacist (who works part-time with 3 children under the age of 5), and he is a lawyer with the state.
My last BF (not my Dh) was a firefighter. When my daughter heard we were seriously dating, she said, "Well, Mom, I thought you would choose someone more "intellectual." I think she also called him my "little boyfriend" (he's over six feet and we are all incredibly short), which he never forgave her for.
I think "intellectual" here was code for higher-earning. He earned as much (with overtime because he moonlighted as their IT person) as I did as a teacher although I got a couple of raises plus sudden recogniton of my private school experience that pushed me about $15,000 over him before we ended the relationship. He certainly was as smart as I am although in a different way. I am book smart; he was life smart. But, again, I think my daughter thought there was too big a discrepancy between her perception of our stations in life.
Lol.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2011 18:10:29 GMT -5
His "lack of" education is no indication of lack of intelligence .. I never said such and don't believe it either. My cousin husband, the taxi driver, is an amazing guy and quite smart. He just never had the opportunity to further his education and don't see himself behind a desk. And my wife's best friend fiancee, seriously I don't see him doing anything else but auto mechanic. He LOVES LOVES fixing cars and pretty awesome at it. His goal is in 3 years to have his own auto mechanic shop. All the woman in that position that we know are perfectly ok with it and knew what they were getting into. I think it is just society expectations/projections that somewhat get to them.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2011 18:13:42 GMT -5
But, again, I think my daughter thought there was too big a discrepancy between her perception of our stations in life.. Exactly. And those are the types of comments that get to some of our friends. Like ohh... he is a mechanic? Or in my case: Oh he only has a bachelor degree or works for that company? (and yet I make more than 10K than my wife with a masters)
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Jul 1, 2011 18:24:47 GMT -5
Don't worry, I didn't think you did - I just get a little defensive since my mom is so down on it. The funny thing is, my sister is in school to be an RN and HER boyfriend is a mechanic - but my mom has zero problem with that! I have gotten a few odd looks from people at work who have asked me what DH does... and then when I've mentioned he's going to school (to those who don't know what he does), they're like, "Oh, getting an MBA?"
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Jul 1, 2011 18:31:20 GMT -5
I think the family dynamic will change. It's inevitable with women going to school more and earning more and higher degrees. Most younger people are more open to the idea as it is, and it will only increase as generations come.
I guess I have a hard time seeing how any of those women could complain, if they married these guys, they had to know this going in. I don't see how a doctor can marry an auto mechanic and then turn around and be upset about not being supported.
My parents are pretty open minded, I think they'd support the idea if I wanted to be a SAHS. I think they'd take time to come around, but not because of old fashinoed ideas. They would more likely be concerned about me giving up a steady career and taking the risk.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2011 18:39:09 GMT -5
I'm working on a terminal degree so if I meet someone the odds are that I will have more education than him, and I could potentially be a higher earner.
At the risk of having to turn in my feminism card, I think there will be a shifting emphasis to the other ways a man can "take care of" a woman. And I suspect this will continue to include the squishing of bugs, the snaking of drains, and the carrying of heavy objects.
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yogiii
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Post by yogiii on Jul 1, 2011 18:39:48 GMT -5
My mom went to college and was a teacher. My dad didn't go to college and probably worked a lot harder than he should have doing very low paying jobs. Growing up, nothing seemed weird to me and it wasn't a big deal that my mom made more, neither of them cared about it. Honestly, in the beginning he probably made more because he was working 2-3 jobs but towards the end she certainly made more.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2011 19:32:45 GMT -5
Why would you go to medical school if you expected to be 'taken care of' ... ?
My husband made more money the first year out with his AS, than i was making with an MS and 8 years in...
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busymom
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Post by busymom on Jul 1, 2011 19:36:56 GMT -5
My DH & I "took turns" making more money than the other, before the kids arrived. Didn't affect our relationship with each other, and neither my parents nor my in-laws gave a darn either. (It could be because my MIL has always had a more stable job than my FIL, and overall brought home more money.)
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2011 19:39:51 GMT -5
Why would you go to medical school if you expected to be 'taken care of' ... ? old school mentality And she went to med school because her mom wanted her too not because she wanted too (we see alot of that in my culture too, getting a degree in what your parents want you too) My mother in law is still upset at my wife for not going to med school after getting a degree in biology which is why she still did not pay her student loans off Haitian parents have some fucked up expectations for their kids. It's like they are allowed/have the right to live their life thru you and you have no say in it. And you dare to do the opposite and you get to hear about: - all the hard work they had to do for oyu - all the sacrifice they had to do - and it goes on. In her case it is more the idea of being able to be taken care of if needed, not that he as to do it all the time. Or something like that.
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phil5185
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Post by phil5185 on Jul 1, 2011 19:40:27 GMT -5
My wife feels it might create some issues in the case of her best friend since she is somewhat old school and feels her husband should be able to support her and take care of her. IMO it is going to be a worsening problem - but not for the "husband must provide" thesis above. Over the past decade or two our school systems have been telling girls that they are just as good as boys, that they can do math, etc - and that's correct of course. But meanwhile boys were ignored/feminized so that the pendulum swung right past the goal - ie, that boys and girls are equal, not that girls are smarter than boys. So now we have more women than men entering college, entering the professions, creating the intellectual property - while the men slack-off and just let the women do it. And any time we have 50% of the population carrying the load, and the other 50% not contributing, it we be a major societal problem. I hope we don't let it come to that.
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DVM gone riding
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Post by DVM gone riding on Jul 1, 2011 19:45:43 GMT -5
the question isn't are us women ok with it--I think most of us are--but are you men ok with it and with the attitude other people might give!!
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2011 19:46:30 GMT -5
Its even worse than that Phil.. because so many more boys are medicated than girls... their motivation squashed, their innovation tampered, as they are labeled 'disordered' and defective...
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2011 19:51:36 GMT -5
So now we have more women than men entering college, entering the professions, creating the intellectual property - while the men slack-off and just let the women do it. And any time we have 50% of the population carrying the load, and the other 50% not contributing, it we be a major societal problem. I hope we don't let it come to that. I can see your point there because in my family the girls outweight the boys when it comes to higher education, earning potential, etc. Most of my male cousins, dare I say it, are losers and funny they manage to find women with education and a good job to take care of them.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2011 19:52:33 GMT -5
old school mentality And she went to med school because her mom wanted her too not because she wanted too (we see a lot of that in my culture too, getting a degree in what your parents want you too) A friend of ours worked at a medical school and he said there were quite a few dropouts among some of the ethnic groups that really pushed their kids into the medical field. It was their way of finally admitting they really didn't want to be doctors and they'd better get out now. phil, I understand your concern about focusing so hard on encouraging girls that the boys get lost in the shuffle and I read recently that more than 50% of college degrees now go to women- but still only 20% of the STEM (science, technology, engineering and math) degree recipients. I can't believe we've made so little progress. But to get back to the OT- for the most part, I think this is a change for the better. Some people are driven and want high power careers and the big bucks and all the demands that come with them. Not all of those people are men. Same for people who want something 9 to 5 that pays the bills or maybe a life of volunteer work, child-raising and making organic baby food. And not all of them are women. Let's not force either sex into a particular choice based on their gender. Another point in favor of those non-traditional setups- a Financial Times writer looked into the publicly available information on their "100 Women in Business to Watch" list and found that, in most cases, they were married and had children, but the husband had a job that was less demanding so he could support her career. My sister and I have certainly been able to focus better on our careers because we have someone at home taking care of cooking and cleaning and waiting for the cable guy. Our husbands are pretty happy, too!
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muttleynfelix
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Post by muttleynfelix on Jul 1, 2011 19:57:44 GMT -5
I'm in a position where DH is the SAHD and I'm the one working (civil engineer). Is it widely accepted? Well, to our faces there has only been a few negative comments, overwelmingly the comments have been positive. I think people were shocked that I married someone with no college education (not to mention 17 years older than me). He is in a complimentary field (Land Surveying). So despite not having the education, he "gets" what I do which is probably more important to me than someone having the education.
What you bring to the table in a relationship isn't just financial. There is a lot of quality of life benefits that DH brings by staying at home. DS will be raised to be able to take care of himself, but know when to put family first. The timing was right for DH to stay home. The housing slump had decimated the surveying industry in our town. He was maxed out in his career without additional certification which he did not want and was bored with it. Most people in his position jump around quite a bit and he still has contacts and does a bit of consulting so his foot is in the door if he wants to go back into it. I don't think he will full time again.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2011 20:17:54 GMT -5
"I understand your concern about focusing so hard on encouraging girls that the boys get lost in the shuffle and I read recently that more than 50% of college degrees now go to women- but still only 20% of the STEM (science, technology, engineering and math) degree recipients. I can't believe we've made so little progress."
I guess I don't understand your definition of progress. I was talking about my kids one day on here, and how my daughter was spending the day baking and my son was spending his on math puzzles and someone slammed me for pushing gender sterotypes. When in fact, i was just letting them do what it is that they wanted to do. Progress is having the CHOICE. Progress is having the OPPORUNITY. Progress is not demanding that for every boy who wants to go into STEM, there is a girl who wants to go into it too... Progress is not manufacturing environments to force people into a false 'equilibrium'....
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jul 1, 2011 20:31:16 GMT -5
It always makes me wonder if women will just stop getting married, period? What is the point? Men aren't needed for their paycheck, they aren't needed for their sperm (you can get it from a bank or just about anywhere) and they aren't needed to be in the home because half the marriages end up in divorce anyway so why hassle with shared custody? If I had it to do over again, I'd have gone with my dream career, not had kids at all, and stayed single.
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lazysundays
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Post by lazysundays on Jul 1, 2011 20:42:51 GMT -5
DH admitted that he wished he could make more to feel like the breadwinner - he makes half of what I make. Just recently he took on another part time job just to bring home $3k, which to me feels like peanuts and he shouldn't have stressed our family by working more than he needs to. But he is proud of the extra income he brings in. I'm ok with it in the end because it's a job that will build his portfolio, but if it wasn't for that, it wouldn't be worth it, and then I'd be conflicted in letting him keep the job for just the $ that he's proud of bringing in....
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2011 20:53:29 GMT -5
'letting him keep the job'
This was probably just phrasing... but i'd be more worried about the possible underlying implications of the words 'letting him' ...
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phil5185
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Post by phil5185 on Jul 1, 2011 20:58:44 GMT -5
and they aren't needed to be in the home because half the marriages end up in divorce anyway so why hassle with shared custody? If I had it to do over again, I'd have gone with my dream career, not had kids at all, and stayed single. That's what I was getting at in post #12 but you said it way better. If we allow this trend to worsen, we will reach a point where men are useless and unnecessary, ie women will prefer to stay single. When only 50% of the population is productive, that means that they are saddled with the useless 50%.
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MN-Investor
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Post by MN-Investor on Jul 1, 2011 21:54:55 GMT -5
If I had it to do over again, I'd have gone with my dream career, not had kids at all, and stayed single. My DH once asked me, "How can I tell that you love me?" I replied, "Because I'm still married to you." When I graduated from college, I knew that I wanted a career and that I did not want children. So why get married? Because I wanted to spend my life with DH - he was my best friend. I couldn't imagine not being with him. Both of us made nice incomes. We didn't need the other for financial support. It's nice being part of a team. I never "needed" DH for his financial support. So I wasn't "forced" to stay with him because of financial necessity. That's a very liberating thought. I think - I hope - that that's what's happening with some of the marriages being mentioned. People are getting married because they've found the right person, not because they've found a Sugar Daddy who can support them. When you have two potential income earners, you can be a lot more flexible in making decisions based on what works for your own family. You don't have to try to fit into the Daddy works, Mommy stays home, etc. because that's the way it's supposed to be.
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Jul 1, 2011 22:05:29 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2011 22:08:01 GMT -5
If we allow this trend to worsen, we will reach a point where men are useless and unnecessary, ie women will prefer to stay single. When only 50% of the population is productive, that means that they are saddled with the useless 50%. Please. Do you think women keep men around only when they need the cash flow or a Baby Daddy? You're vastly underestimating the contribution of men beyond those two factors. DH and I married when I was 50 (no need for sperm donors, thank you) and making 2.5 times what he did. I married him because he was nurturing, supportive, capable of intelligent converstion and a wonderful role model for DS, who would not have turned out as sane as he did without his influence. You're also underestimating the contrubtuion of stay-at-home wives, for that matter. Does lack of income or low income automatically render someone "useless"? (Or does that only apply to men with little or no income?) I don't share your pessimism. Feminism saved my life and my sanity and I love my husband for reasons beyond the present value of his future cash flow.
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achelois
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Post by achelois on Jul 1, 2011 22:09:29 GMT -5
I think it will even out in the long run. I wouldn't worry too much about the men. The good ol' boys' network is still very much alive and well. Women still have along way to go before we achieve anything resembling full equality in society.
What I think will happen eventually is that ambitious people of both sexes will be able to get ahead, those who want to stay home in a more nurturing and supportive role will be able to do so without predjudice, and the useless baggage and deadweight s of society will continue to merrily mooch their way through life just as they do now.
Guys are going to have to quit dumping all the unpleasant and repetitive household tasks on women and pull their weight if they want the income of working wives; otherwise, women just won't see any reason to bother having them around all the time.
It's a big reason I stay single--guys(at least those in my age group) seem to want to be waited on, picked up after, cooked for, have their laundry done, have sex, and all so I can have the honor of having them plop on the couch and watch tv.
They don't seem to be able to entertain themselves and require constant attention. It is easier to care for a two-year-old than it is a man. They are just a lot of extra work.
I am with ziba--if I had to do it again, I would not marry. No man in my life has done anything to support my career or education and a few have actively tried to sabotage it. It has been an uphill battle to get where I am today--and it was not until I divorced that I got anywhere, especially financially.
I always wonder what I might have been able to do or how far I may have gotten if I had had even half the support FROM my husband that I gave TO him. Or if my dad had helped and encouraged me as he had done with my brothers, instead of saying that it would be a waste for me to have an education.
I really doubt that men/boys will ever be so thoroughly held back, discouraged, squelched, trivialized and obliterated the way women have been.
ETA: I do realize there are supportive men out there and that there are guys who do there share around the house, but still think they are in the minority and continued improvement is needed.
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bring in the new year
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Post by bring in the new year on Jul 1, 2011 22:59:00 GMT -5
Phil,
Boys aren't being ignored now. They're just not being catered to.
When I was in school, I was certainly told that girls weren't good at math and science and it was certainly weird that I liked science. But if there were any science demos the teacher wanted to try, I never got to help. No, she picked a boy. And she was fair - she picked a different boy every week.
Boys were called on more than girls; boys were praised more than girls; boys' sports got more time and space than girls' sports. Girls were told in a hundred different ways that boys were more important.
And as long as they were the center of attention, boys didn't seem to need to be medicated.
So I don't think boys are being feminized and ignored. I think they're being taught the same way girls used to be taught. And if they can't compete or they don't want to compete, well, SAHP is a perfectly acceptable life choice.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2011 23:57:07 GMT -5
OP - I'm exactly the opposite. I'd say over 85% of the couples we know, the male earns the most and has the most earning potential.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jul 2, 2011 8:23:40 GMT -5
Being the only child I did not have the issues of having brothers to compete with so my parents never ignored me that way, although I can see if I had had brothers my mom would have treated me even worse than she did just by watching her with her stepson. My parents wanted me to go to college for 2 reasons, immigrants wanting better for their child, and two, meet and marry a college man who would take "care of me and my children" the rest of my life. They insisted (Thank GOD) that I get an education degree JUST IN CASE. Considering I barely stopped working it was a good thing they did. I hope my kids stay single and pursue their dreams and remain childless because that is what I wanted for myself. But if they choose another path, it will be a CHOICE not an expectation.
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