Formerly SK
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Post by Formerly SK on Jul 2, 2011 9:01:01 GMT -5
Its even worse than that Phil.. because so many more boys are medicated than girls... their motivation squashed, their innovation tampered, as they are labeled 'disordered' and defective... Don't forget also that every commercial and TV show has the rational, capable mom while the dad is portrayed as an incompetent fool.
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achelois
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Post by achelois on Jul 2, 2011 9:03:41 GMT -5
You can always watch re-runs of FatherKnowsBest if it makes you feel better.
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Formerly SK
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Post by Formerly SK on Jul 2, 2011 9:26:23 GMT -5
You can always watch re-runs of FatherKnowsBest if it makes you feel better. Why does it have to be either/or? Why can't both sexes be shown with integrity? I have to raise both a son AND a daughter to be responsible, capable, rational people.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2011 9:34:52 GMT -5
Agreed skinny... I have a boy and a girl too...
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cael
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Post by cael on Jul 2, 2011 9:51:49 GMT -5
My DF will be the SAHS when we have kids, at least while they are little. I am starting a master's degree soon and he will be starting an associate's. He has a GED, I have a bachelor's degree. he may have had a problem with it when we were younger, but neither of us care now. He readily tells people I'm the breadwinner, lol. Doesn't mean it'll always be that way, but that's how we work right now and it works fine. He's looking forward to being a SAHD someday
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2011 10:52:18 GMT -5
If we allow this trend to worsen, we will reach a point where men are useless and unnecessary, ie women will prefer to stay single. This is already happening. Several studies have shown that there is a growing marriage gap - that the educated get married in larger numbers and have more successful marriages. There also have been studies on why low income/minority women don't get married, even to the fathers of their children. These type of women tended to respond that marriage was something you did after you became successful because otherwise your pool of potential partners was pretty limited. Even the men responded that they felt they were not good marriage material because of their inability to earn a good income. Stable families are increasingly becoming the province of the educated - which is increasing the income gap in the US. The educated marry each other, have children, spend more time with their children and educating them and then those children marry similar people. Meanwhile low income children are spending less time with their fathers. Educating boys is critical for stable families and decreasing the income gap, especially in an era of declining living wage blue collar jobs. There's a great discussion of the whole topic in Blue Families vs. Red Families.
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MN-Investor
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Post by MN-Investor on Jul 2, 2011 10:59:38 GMT -5
Don't forget also that every commercial and TV show has the rational, capable mom while the dad is portrayed as an incompetent fool. Perhaps for half-hour sitcoms. However, that is not the standard for hour long dramas which purport to more clearly reflect reality.
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phil5185
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Post by phil5185 on Jul 2, 2011 11:05:46 GMT -5
Why does it have to be either/or? Why can't both sexes be shown with integrity? I have to raise both a son AND a daughter to be responsible, I think this 50/50 balance is key to a stable productive society. The 'father knows best' era was badly skewed - then women made great strides in education/work equality. The pendulum may have swung past the tipping point in about 1985 as women commonly became doctors, lawyers, truck drivers, engineers - ie, branched out from teacher nurse secretary. And then came the neutering/feminization of boys in the system, leading to the current skewed population of 'useless' males and productive females. Not a good outcome - BOTH need to be educated and motivated.
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MN-Investor
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Post by MN-Investor on Jul 2, 2011 11:09:42 GMT -5
Several studies have shown that there is a growing marriage gap - that the educated get married in larger numbers and have more successful marriages. Back in 1976, when I got married, it was much more common for couples to get married than to just live together. That's not the reality now. Rather than statistics on marriage, I would be interested in the numbers relating to couples living together - with or without marriage. Why would a couple living together for ten years be less significant than a marriage of the same length? And certainly a marriage of eight years followed by a divorce is not preferable to a ten year period of living together without marriage.
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Cookies Galore
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Post by Cookies Galore on Jul 2, 2011 11:41:55 GMT -5
If I had it to do over again, I'd have gone with my dream career, not had kids at all, and stayed single. My DH once asked me, "How can I tell that you love me?" I replied, "Because I'm still married to you." When I graduated from college, I knew that I wanted a career and that I did not want children. So why get married? Because I wanted to spend my life with DH - he was my best friend. I couldn't imagine not being with him. Both of us made nice incomes. We didn't need the other for financial support. It's nice being part of a team. I never "needed" DH for his financial support. So I wasn't "forced" to stay with him because of financial necessity. That's a very liberating thought. I think - I hope - that that's what's happening with some of the marriages being mentioned. People are getting married because they've found the right person, not because they've found a Sugar Daddy who can support them. When you have two potential income earners, you can be a lot more flexible in making decisions based on what works for your own family. You don't have to try to fit into the Daddy works, Mommy stays home, etc. because that's the way it's supposed to be. I'm a medical editor and in my particular field there is ample opportunity for future earnings. BF and I are fully aware that I am the one with the most earning potential, and as far as I'm aware, he has no problem with that. He damn well better not or I'll *shakes fist*. BF is a screen printer and I would love it if he was a mechanic!
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achelois
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Post by achelois on Jul 2, 2011 12:34:32 GMT -5
Yes, a 50/50 balance would be ideal, and I think we will eventually reach something close to it, but we are still in the throes of shaking off rigid sex role stereotypes and redefining and renegotiating division of labor. It will be a while yet before we reach a point where one's sex isn't relevant. There are still few female surgeons or women in the trades and women still bear the brunt of household duties and childcare whether or not they work, although it is encouraging to read many of the posts that indicate more men are doing more. I have always been opposed to sex role stereotyping, probably because I had usually gotten the short end of the stick growing up .
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973beachbum
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Post by 973beachbum on Jul 2, 2011 12:53:59 GMT -5
Several studies have shown that there is a growing marriage gap - that the educated get married in larger numbers and have more successful marriages. Back in 1976, when I got married, it was much more common for couples to get married than to just live together. That's not the reality now. Rather than statistics on marriage, I would be interested in the numbers relating to couples living together - with or without marriage. Why would a couple living together for ten years be less significant than a marriage of the same length? And certainly a marriage of eight years followed by a divorce is not preferable to a ten year period of living together without marriage.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2011 14:34:26 GMT -5
According to the studies the more stable cohabiting relationships tend to end up in marriage. Although more couples are cohabiting these relationships are actually less stable than they were a few decades ago and low income people are much more like to cohabit. So while the divorce rate has stabilized cohabiting couples now break up more frequently. I read that something like 1 in 6 children born to a college educated woman will live in a home where cohabitation is occurring while 40% of low income children will live in a cohabiting household.
So it's not that cohabitation is inherently worse than marriage but that the people who choose it tend to have risk factors like low education and income.
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bring in the new year
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Post by bring in the new year on Jul 2, 2011 14:37:31 GMT -5
I think the 50/50 idea is good too, I just hope we can stablize close to that.
My problem with the way we educate both boys and girls? We leave kids with the thought that they should do what they find easiest, not what what they're going to need. We leave kids with the idea that they can chose not to work - that the magic fairies will find them a job they love.
I have had jobs I loved - but I didn't know that when I took them. Because I never knew some of these jobs existed. I want more math and science for both boys and girls. I want more hands on tinkering for both boys and girls and more finances. I want kids to remember it's fun to blow things up and it's fun to take things apart and put them back together.
I'm not arguing against SAHP btw. I think it's wonderful. But as my grandmother said to me when I was a kid, things happen. Bad things. Breadearners get hit by trucks, by cancer, by heart attacks and the SAHP has to be prepared to pick up and switch roles for little while. The lives that people describe where they move and switch off make a lot of sense to me and I only hope they can keep doing it as they get older and career paths become set in stone.
You know one of the reasons I like being a feminist? I knew too many kids in my neighborhood whose dads died young from overwork. I like men and I like it when they live to see their grandchildren.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jul 2, 2011 15:01:38 GMT -5
I just hear my DD saying she doesn't need a man financially and doesn't wish to share custody of any child she might have when the inevitable divorce happens, plus being military, she's afraid she would lose custody if she had to serve out of the country. She has me for backup care. So, for other than sperm, what reason does she have to get married? That is not a good enough reason. I hear DS saying the same thing but he is only on board with it if he can glom onto a high earning spouse but even then, he is VERY leery of having kids with said spouse because "what if she gets bored with him?" He loses his kids, his house, half of everything. Is this the legacy we want to pass onto our kids? That ONLY the idiots and welfare recipients are breeding? Glad I'll be long gone before this happens. As it is we will be giving most of the US back to Mexico within 20 years at the most.
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lazysundays
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Post by lazysundays on Jul 2, 2011 21:40:26 GMT -5
oped- it was just the wording, but funny thing is that i had to rephrase another part of that post because of my domineering language... subconsciously, i do want control, and i guess by pulling my weight financially, I feel like i have a right to ask for what i want. If DH really wanted to do another job, we would make it work. It just got so stressful because his second job was all about learning as you go, and this part time job became a second full time job. I told him that I can miss him for a while, but thank God that he is home alone with baby in the evenings so he is forced to spend time with her. (he said he would quit right away if that was infringed upon, and he said it's never forced ;D Another poster joked about the husband not being able to tell her not to spend $ on stuff when she was the one making the $. We have separate accounts just out of convenience, but it's all our $. If we want to spend over $200 on one purchase, both of us have to agree. And there's no arguments about spending too much on small stuff because we barely buy stuff. Nowadays, it's mostly small toys for the baby.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2011 22:26:58 GMT -5
I figured ... I haven't worked at all really in... almost 2 years? has it been that long? I do miss freelancing some times... but generally it worked the same way... added stress... i ended up compensating by spending $$... eating out, etc... due to the stress/time crunch.... The year after i stopped freelancing, our income went up significantly (even though it was just husband's income really)... but separating it out, and allowing that i did this and he does that... completely, minimized the stress and allowed us to be more efficient as a unit...
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Jul 3, 2011 0:24:35 GMT -5
"Is this the legacy we want to pass onto our kids? That ONLY the idiots and welfare recipients are breeding?"
I don't think we have to worry about that. i'm in my 20's and I see my peers getting married all the time.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2011 1:52:40 GMT -5
"I understand your concern about focusing so hard on encouraging girls that the boys get lost in the shuffle and I read recently that more than 50% of college degrees now go to women- but still only 20% of the STEM (science, technology, engineering and math) degree recipients. I can't believe we've made so little progress." I guess I don't understand your definition of progress. I was talking about my kids one day on here, and how my daughter was spending the day baking and my son was spending his on math puzzles and someone slammed me for pushing gender sterotypes. When in fact, i was just letting them do what it is that they wanted to do. Progress is having the CHOICE. Progress is having the OPPORUNITY. Progress is not demanding that for every boy who wants to go into STEM, there is a girl who wants to go into it too... Progress is not manufacturing environments to force people into a false 'equilibrium'....
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2011 2:02:52 GMT -5
I just hear my DD saying she doesn't need a man financially and doesn't wish to share custody of any child she might have when the inevitable divorce happens, plus being military, she's afraid she would lose custody if she had to serve out of the country. She has me for backup care. So, for other than sperm, what reason does she have to get married? That is not a good enough reason. I hear DS saying the same thing but he is only on board with it if he can glom onto a high earning spouse but even then, he is VERY leery of having kids with said spouse because "what if she gets bored with him?" He loses his kids, his house, half of everything. Is this the legacy we want to pass onto our kids? That ONLY the idiots and welfare recipients are breeding? Glad I'll be long gone before this happens. As it is we will be giving most of the US back to Mexico within 20 years at the most. Wow, that's one of the most short-sighted and pessimistic world views I've seen on here in a long time. It would be pretty sad if you were actively telling your kids to not get married or have kids. They need to make their own choices about those things.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jul 3, 2011 7:14:27 GMT -5
I don't say this to them, they say it to me. DS has been going to weddings and he wonders WHY they are even getting married? Some are even-gasp-having CHILDREN! He's 28, not a child and neither are his peer group but he doesn't see the point, either. So both my female and male offspring are leery. BOTH seem to feel divorce is the issue and since their sperm donor and I are divorced, I can see where it colored their thinking. Both are concerned that a spouse will just use them and then leave them holding the bag.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jul 3, 2011 7:15:33 GMT -5
No, I don't tell them to remain single and childless but they saw firsthand, the results of both.
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motherto2
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Post by motherto2 on Jul 3, 2011 7:48:47 GMT -5
I always made more than both of my ex husbands, and they both were bothered by it. Looking back, I think both had problems with me being independent and not relying on them for everything. You ask why I think that? Because, first ex is now married to someone who waits on him hand and foot, and for most of the almost 10 years of them being together she didn't work, even though she left a good Gov't job after they got together. And no, they didn't have any children (the only children are DD and DS that the ex and I have - she didn't have any of her own). And ex #2 was married to a woman that couldn't boil water without help. And she was a stay at home spouse, even when they didn't have a child. Even after they were divorced and he and I were married, she still tried to rely on him for things, even though she had someone else. I'm one of those that will ask you to do something once, and maybe twice, but then I'll do it myself. Boy they used to hate that!! Oh, and they hated when I made decisions on my own. Ex #1 didn't want to get help for DD when she was having learning difficulties in elementary school or when DS couldn't talk well as a little guy. I pressed ahead with getting them help over his protests. I believe these things led to the downturn, but you have to do what you have to do. Years later when DD was in the hospital, he finally admitted to me that I was right to pursue getting the kids help, and he thanked me for it. That was a hard thing for him to admit, but I'm glad he did. Now both kids are successful and going into the military (DD already is). I've always encouraged them to do what they enjoy for a career because they will have to do it for a LONG time, so they might as well enjoy going to work every day. I've never cared for my job (long story) but I'm grateful I stuck with it because now I can support myself and the kids while they are in college and didn't have to sell my house.
We all make choices and tradeoffs, but I think the most important thing you can do is be supportive, and work towards the common goal. Don't worry about what others think. If it works for you, that's all that matters.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jul 3, 2011 9:25:16 GMT -5
There's no stigma anymore for being illegitimate so whats the actual point of marriage anymore?
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Jul 3, 2011 11:50:52 GMT -5
"There's no stigma anymore for being illegitimate so whats the actual point of marriage anymore?"
For legal protection, for companionship, to provide a more stable home life for their children, to "legitamize" their relationship? Maybe they get older and get tired of introducing their co habiting partner as their "boyfirned." People get married for a wide variety of reasons. You seem to think the only reason women get married is for a paycheck. The whole point of feminisim is women can make their own choices, and they don't have to marry for financial support anymore but instead for love and companionship. Both sexes will always be "necessary." Men and women are always going to want to have sex and be in relationships with each other. I agree with moneyjenny, your worldviews are so shortsighted and pessamistic, and not just on this subject either.
If marriage doesn't matter anymore then why are people still doing it in droves? Why are gays fighting so hard to the legal right to marry?
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Jul 3, 2011 11:58:38 GMT -5
"I always made more than both of my ex husbands, and they both were bothered by it. Looking back, I think both had problems with me being independent and not relying on them for everything."
As for women earning more, I wouldn't have a problem with it. I'm hoping to get together with a career minded woman anyway since I don't really want the SAHS lifestyle. Would she make more than me? Maybe, I work a good government job and make decent money (above average), but will never make huge money.
But even though I'd never have a problem with a spouse earning more, I could have a problem depending upon their attitude about it. I've seen women who are so independently minded it gets to the point where you wonder why they're in a relationship.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2011 12:59:42 GMT -5
Although more couples are cohabiting these relationships are actually less stable than they were a few decades ago and low income people are much more like to cohabit. <snip> I read that something like 1 in 6 children born to a college educated woman will live in a home where cohabitation is occurring while 40% of low income children will live in a cohabiting household. So it's not that cohabitation is inherently worse than marriage but that the people who choose it tend to have risk factors like low education and income. Darn, that's depressing. And the US government's tax and social programs are pretty much anti-marriage. Live with the baby daddy and you qualify for all kinds of programs and get the Earned Income Credit. Marry the baby daddy and if he's got any kind of a job, your taxes go up and you may lose eligibility for some of the programs.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2011 19:18:57 GMT -5
If my wife suddenly made more than me (through an increase in her pay, not a decrease in mine), I'd give her a big hug and kiss and head to the Porsche dealer to enlarge my penis.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jul 3, 2011 19:43:19 GMT -5
There's another issue, being PENALIZED for having morals or doing the right thing. No wonder this country is going to hell in a handbasket.
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telephus44
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Post by telephus44 on Jul 3, 2011 20:16:14 GMT -5
In my social group, the husbands still out earn the wives. The wives either SAH or have small part-time jobs to help out - none of them really want a career. It's always awkward for me hanging out since I not only work full-time, but I actually HAVE a career.
I tend to agree with Phil - we as a society are marginalizing men and equality of the sexes, so it logically follows that we're kind of devaluing marriage, too. If you don't teach people that the sexes are equal, they why would you ever want to marry someone and have an equal partnership? Notice that in most marriages we tend to see one spouse as dragging the other one down?
Yes, I am married and see the point and value in marriage. But it seems that society is moving away from it.
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