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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2011 19:42:17 GMT -5
I was having this discussion with a friend today, and she made a statement i'm not sure holds true... so i'd like to see how this comes down on 'party lines' ...
So... the pledge... discuss...
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chiver78
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Post by chiver78 on Jun 28, 2011 19:43:32 GMT -5
do we get the statement to consider, or just the pledge as a whole?  |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2011 19:49:04 GMT -5
Not the statement upfront, but some questions:
Should we have a pledge? Should we have the pledge we have now? Should the pledge be mandatory? In schools? Other places? Should the pledge be a litmus test of patriotism? If a person chooses not to pledge... should we judge them? how? ...
Stuff like that...
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jun 28, 2011 19:54:14 GMT -5
good topic.
the pledge was invented by a socialist (Bellamy). it is pure statist crap, imho. the original salute during the pledge was the Roman salute, which was dropped in the 30's due to a certain central European personage that thought it would make a nice salute for his regime.
i am not interested in pledging my allegiance to anything other than to the law and to my own principles. where the two are in conflict, i will follow my principles and take my chances with the law.
as for the God part, that was added during the Cold War. my religion is between me and my God, and is not a matter for public consumption.
are those enough thoughts for you?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2011 19:58:29 GMT -5
Ok. I'm sorry i don't remember everyone, so djlung are you 'liberal' or 'conservative' or whatever (either as you would define yourself, or as you would be defined on this board... i know they differ...)
Yes... that is exactly the kind of thing i'm looking for... thanks.
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cereb
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Post by cereb on Jun 28, 2011 19:59:22 GMT -5
good topic. the pledge was invented by a socialist (Bellamy). it is pure statist crap, imho. the original salute during the pledge was the Roman salute, which was dropped in the 30's due to a certain central European personage that thought it would make a nice salute for his regime. i am not interested in pledging my allegiance to anything other than to the law and to my own principles. where the two are in conflict, i will follow my principles and take my chances with the law. as for the God part, that was added during the Cold War. my religion is between me and my God, and is not a matter for public consumption. are those enough thoughts for you? Works for me. Ditto. |
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Post by BeenThere...DoneThat... on Jun 28, 2011 20:00:02 GMT -5
good topic. the pledge was invented by a socialist (Bellamy). it is pure statist crap, imho. the original salute during the pledge was the Roman salute, which was dropped in the 30's due to a certain central European personage that thought it would make a nice salute for his regime. i am not interested in pledging my allegiance to anything other than to the law and to my own principles. where the two are in conflict, i will follow my principles and take my chances with the law. as for the God part, that was added during the Cold War. my religion is between me and my God, and is not a matter for public consumption. are those enough thoughts for you? ...lol...  ...I'll even add in my pesky conservative-leaning thoughts about how a lot of right wing nut jobs (aka Baptists) eschew creeds, so while they can tolerate/understand having required pledge in public schools, their communities would be unlikely to support it in a community-led school... imo... |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2011 20:02:00 GMT -5
I've been having a long day been... but i'm not sure i understand that last statement... ?
I think otherwise you are agreeing with dj and cereb?
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Post by BeenThere...DoneThat... on Jun 28, 2011 20:09:54 GMT -5
...well, I see no problem with the pledge in the public schools... they are, after all, public schools... you can't get much more statist than that... meanwhile, if we ever "get back to basics," a la Walnut Grove, and communities resume management of our schools, you can count on the Baptists, again, to rally for the separation of church and state... I'd say most of your religious types would rally behind that, actually... imo... |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2011 20:12:42 GMT -5
Sorry to be dense. So you think most religious types would be against the pledge? ...
(I'm rethinking the benadryl i took... it may be messing with me brain...)
Do you think the pledge should be MANDATORY in public schools?
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chiver78
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Post by chiver78 on Jun 28, 2011 20:14:17 GMT -5
thanks for the clarification, oped. I think dj was reading my mind, TBH. I wonder what value there is in knowing someone's leanings before a good discussion on the topic. IMHO, if you don't know the person, like you said you don't know dj, I think it would be a great academic exercise.  as far as BTDT's last statement, I'd venture that if embracing creeds would get them a conservative that shared their values, the Baptists would pledge allegiance to the blackboard if they had to. |
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Post by vonnie6200 on Jun 28, 2011 20:15:30 GMT -5
Sorry to be dense. So you think most religious types would be against the pledge? ... (I'm rethinking the benadryl i took... it may be messing with me brain...) Do you think the pledge should be MANDATORY in public schools? How much does it really matter? |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2011 20:21:25 GMT -5
Ok. I am personally spot on with dj's statements. I think some pledge written by a socialist and modified under mccarthy to add the words 'under god' in some misdirected attempt to somehow distinguish it from the communists, is moronic. I'm all for respecting people who feel they want to express their patriotism in that way, but it doesn't mean much to me... I don't care if people don't choose to do it...
This 'homeschool friend' , was complaining that a girl from school said they don't have to say the pledge in the morning... she thinks they shoud have to say it. I explained my position. She wrote me today and somehow compared the pledge to our need to have laws... she said basically that one of the reasons why she tends to be more conservative, is not that she want to dictate her values on others, but that she thinks there has to be some sort of guidelines in society, and learning patriotism, pride for the country, etc is a good thing and doesn't hurt anyone...
I was just wondering if her ideas of conservativism and pledging, etc., were actually consistent/ widespread.
Then, i have lots of 'conservative' homeschool friends who seem to be only conservative in religious, abortion, gay rights issues... but in actual, conservative, personal freedom, fiscal issues... not so much?...
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Post by billisonboard on Jun 28, 2011 20:24:43 GMT -5
Sorry to be dense. So you think most religious types would be against the pledge? ... (I'm rethinking the benadryl i took... it may be messing with me brain...) Do you think the pledge should be MANDATORY in public schools? How much does it really matter?  ... as I pledged allegiance to the wall ... |
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Post by BeenThere...DoneThat... on Jun 28, 2011 20:25:34 GMT -5
as far as BTDT's last statement, I'd venture that if embracing creeds would get them a conservative that shared their values, the Baptists would pledge allegiance to the blackboard if they had to. ...now maybe I took Benadryl and didn't know it... 'cuz I didn't follow this one...  |
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chiver78
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Post by chiver78 on Jun 28, 2011 20:27:45 GMT -5
as far as BTDT's last statement, I'd venture that if embracing creeds would get them a conservative that shared their values, the Baptists would pledge allegiance to the blackboard if they had to. ...now maybe I took Benadryl and didn't know it... 'cuz I didn't follow this one... which - mine or BTDT's? |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2011 20:29:10 GMT -5
Did everyone take a pill this evening?  |
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Post by BeenThere...DoneThat... on Jun 28, 2011 20:31:19 GMT -5
...now maybe I took Benadryl and didn't know it... 'cuz I didn't follow this one... which - mine or BTDT's? ...yours... fwiw, I almost always make sense to me...  |
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chiver78
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Post by chiver78 on Jun 28, 2011 20:32:05 GMT -5
um....well I spent the afternoon here on P&M  , then went to get my aggravation out beating up a softball - we lost by 30 runs (?) in a beer league game. I'm home now on my third glass of wine. I'd say I'm about even with your Benadryl. |
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handyman2
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Post by handyman2 on Jun 28, 2011 20:32:13 GMT -5
A socialist came up with the pledge? Wonders never cease.
The pledge to the flag which is a symbol of our nation. what would be a problem with showing you are patriotic to the country of your citizenship. All baptists I know support the pledge and the nation.
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Post by BeenThere...DoneThat... on Jun 28, 2011 20:32:15 GMT -5
Did everyone take a pill this evening? ...yes, let's... ;D |
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chiver78
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Post by chiver78 on Jun 28, 2011 20:37:31 GMT -5
...now maybe I took Benadryl and didn't know it... 'cuz I didn't follow this one... which - mine or BTDT's? hah, fail. I saw the quote and thought it was swamp asking.  like I said, it's been a long day. you had said that Baptists eschew creeds (as do some other religions - anything that goes against their own religious creed, actually). the Baptists I've known in my lifetime have tended to be more on the conservative side of things politically. I would guess that they would prefer to err on the side of caution in their elected officials, even if it meant bending the religious rules. that's all. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2011 20:42:54 GMT -5
I don't mind if people want to say it handy... i'm just not at all for MAKING people say it, or judging them if they don't.
I was a bit brisk yesterday with her, but i was like, i am so tired of people mis-labeling things in this country as 'socialist' or 'communist' etc. ... and then turning right around and not recognizing what actually IS a an action which could realisticaly earn such a label... like requiring people to pledge a flag in order to demonstrate their loyalty...
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2011 20:53:59 GMT -5
I don't think it should be required by anyone to say the pledge. Is it? When I was in school many years ago not all said it, no requirement. I liked to say it. Made me feel part of a team. Team USA, and I liked my team and I liked what it stood for and I still do.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2011 20:56:38 GMT -5
What are your feelings on the 'get NBC' because they left out 'under god' ... movement... ?
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chiver78
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Post by chiver78 on Jun 28, 2011 20:58:49 GMT -5
What are your feelings on the 'get NBC' because they left out 'under god' ... movement... ? I think it's BS. they left out "indivisible" as well, in the clip that I saw. people have too much free time on their hands if they are whining about that, IMHO. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2011 21:02:30 GMT -5
If it was intentional then I think it is just another instance of overboard PC . The pledge was said, "under God" was spoken I'm sure by some. So what? to me.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2011 21:11:54 GMT -5
I like giving the pledge of allegiance. I wouldn't mind if it was done in school say from the 1st to 7th grades. After that it wouldn't really matter anyway cause kids that age are brain dead.
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handyman2
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Post by handyman2 on Jun 28, 2011 21:17:49 GMT -5
Oped I am old school and ex military. I must admit that I am set in my ways about what I expect from people in terms being patriotic and showing it. Maybe that is wrong to some but that is just me. No nation on earth has been more generous not only with money but young mens lives in an attempt to help others to enjoy the freedoms and benefits we do. True not always successful but we tried. That we should be proud of and not ashamed to show it.
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Post by deziloooooo on Jun 28, 2011 21:31:09 GMT -5
I see it said and say the pledge often, but I am in a heavily retired area, a over 55 community..we start our building meetings and the big condo meetings with a pledge, just no problem , and the VFW meetings too..we are use to it and are old fashion that way.
Personall, I half the time miss the , "under G-d ' phrase, didn't grow up with it and to this day, half the time forget it till 1/2 way through so mumble away..no biggie and really feel it's not necessary to have in there, but not going to fight a battle over it..it's in, up to me to remember it's there..
We have Canadians in the audience, many snow birds here, some are officers here, they stand respectfully, naturally don't recite it..
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