Shirina
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Post by Shirina on Jun 27, 2011 17:05:46 GMT -5
Get back to me when you decide to post something intelligent. Until that time, I'll leave with a LOL!
Oh, so you DO endorse putting disabled people into concentration camps. I figured you did, which is why I "insulted" you. I just had to coax it out of you, and predictably enough ... it worked.
As the OP implies, I suppose being disabled is all a part of "people's mistakes" and "bad choices." Well damn, if those disabled people hadn't chosen their respective diseases, they wouldn't be in this predicament! Boy, weren't they stupid!
Being nice in a pit of vipers isn't the best course of action, now, is it. If the hissing and slithering stops, I'll be happy to be nice.
It's just the same old "All liberals are _____________" vitriol you folks just love to post, the standard belief that all liberals adhere to every aspect of liberalism. It's a stupid and over-used tactic by people around here.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Jun 27, 2011 17:17:35 GMT -5
Well, then, oldtex. Instead of talking about people, including liberals, conservatives, libertarians, or whomever, why don't we talk about the issues, instead?
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Post by marshabar1 on Jun 27, 2011 17:20:24 GMT -5
Well, then, oldtex. Instead of talking about people, including liberals, conservatives, libertarians, or whomever, why don't we talk about the issues, instead? mmhmm, you can't discuss politics without discussing the parties and the ideologies. And yes, that includes the characteristics as shown by the actions of said parties. That is what political discussion IS. Are you even interested in politics??
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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2011 18:03:53 GMT -5
Politics is not a fav board here. Too bad. Shutting down political discussion by disagreeing with often heated discussion about serious political differences.. well, that is not encouraging a thriving political board. Many times I have seen Moon say she regrets starting this political board.. yeah, I travel.. For 3 days now I have seen a lot of discussion of chastising what posters say to each other when no one is violating any COC rule. It's screwing threads up, IMO. Between the obvious bias in banning Burns and every thread I go on being a lecture on peace, love, dove, this board has a real bad feel to it now. You guys have fun trying to have a discussion here.
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Post by BeenThere...DoneThat... on Jun 27, 2011 18:38:20 GMT -5
Politics is not a fav board here. Too bad. Shutting down political discussion by disagreeing with often heated discussion about serious political differences.. well, that is not encouraging a thriving political board. Many times I have seen Moon say she regrets starting this political board.. yeah, I travel.. For 3 days now I have seen a lot of discussion of chastising what posters say to each other when no one is violating any COC rule. It's screwing threads up, IMO. Between the obvious bias in banning Burns and every thread I go on being a lecture on peace, love, dove, this board has a real bad feel to it now. You guys have fun trying to have a discussion here. ...hi, krick... what chaps my hide is that so many posters, who are self-proclaimed intellectuals, are quick to cry foul when engaged in threads... scare tactics, rhetoric, and myriad strategies to parse policy discussions seem to be off-limits to their 'opponents'... it has certainly weakened the appeal of the forum, imo...
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vonnie6200
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Post by vonnie6200 on Jun 27, 2011 18:40:03 GMT -5
Politics is not a fav board here. Too bad. Shutting down political discussion by disagreeing with often heated discussion about serious political differences.. well, that is not encouraging a thriving political board. Many times I have seen Moon say she regrets starting this political board.. yeah, I travel.. For 3 days now I have seen a lot of discussion of chastising what posters say to each other when no one is violating any COC rule. It's screwing threads up, IMO. Between the obvious bias in banning Burns and every thread I go on being a lecture on peace, love, dove, this board has a real bad feel to it now. You guys have fun trying to have a discussion here. ...hi, krick... what chaps my hide is that so many posters, who are self-proclaimed intellectuals, are quick to cry foul when engaged in threads... scare tactics, rhetoric, and myriad strategies to parse policy discussions seem to be off-limits to their 'opponents'... it has certainly weakened the appeal of the forum, imo...
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jun 27, 2011 18:56:56 GMT -5
Got this email. I like these ideas. How about you? What's right with them? What's wrong with them? z nothing is wrong, if you like the nanny state inspecting your urine if you happen to be on welfare. apparently you do.
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handyman2
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Post by handyman2 on Jun 27, 2011 19:39:08 GMT -5
One example of what we are paying for. There is a woman with two kids in the area. She gets free food, rent subsidy, and a welfare check. The woman is about 45, she weighs 400 lbs. if she weighs an ounce, the kids are both badly over weight. Their biggest problem is that they are so overweight all they do is sit and eat. Soon the kids will have serious health problems just like the mother. Now they got this way by having no personal responsibility for their health etc. But why should they? We pay their medical bills, supply them with plenty of junk food and pay them to do so. Something is wrong with this picture. The sad thing this type of behavor is not an isolated story in America today. No one should starve but there has to be a line drawn in the sand somewhere. America is tired of paying for this nonsense.
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vonnie6200
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Post by vonnie6200 on Jun 27, 2011 19:43:13 GMT -5
nothing is wrong, if you like the nanny state inspecting your urine if you happen to be on welfare.
apparently you do.[/quote]
The whole idea is to become self sufficient and stay off the public dole. If you need welfare - there should be guidelines and they should be a bit restrictive (after all you are living off other people's money) - and when you can, you get yourself off welfare
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henryclay
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Post by henryclay on Jun 27, 2011 19:57:00 GMT -5
So along comes a slick politician looking for a bloc vote and sees how people are being sorely mistreated by the very system that keeps them from voting. Next thing you know the slick politician gets elected, the system gets abolished, and the work that was being done by the seople within it gets contracted out and budget deficits climb.
But a short answer would be: "I like it. Don't change a word".
And as a matter of interest, when I was a kid there were several segments of our society that were not eligible to vote. Washington DC residents and military personnel are just two examples. I'm not sure, but I think federal employees were excluded also.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2011 20:53:59 GMT -5
True mmhmm but we are talking liberals here. The HAVE to find that one tiny exception to the rule (that may account for less than 1% of the total) & build an argument around that. Well, well, oldtex. Look at the quote from "reasonfreedom." Do you see how he includes disabled people in the mix? Now do you comprehend why I NEEDED to ask about that so-called "tiny" exception? I knew there would be at least one greedy S.O.B. who would throw anyone under the bus as long as it meant a few extra pennies in his paycheck.
Mkitty & I've done the same thing myself. I over react simply from the frustration factor of being accused of something that I didn't say for being attacked for liberal beliefs of what conservatives belief. The truth is I have never heard anyone really state that they wanted to get rid of any of these programs totally. Just a suggestion & take it for what you pay for it but actually come here & talk to conservatives. I've never seen you do that. You hit hard right off & in general protest about what you think we think instead of finding out what we really think.
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Shirina
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Post by Shirina on Jun 27, 2011 20:59:13 GMT -5
A BIT restrictive? Concentration camps for the poor and disabled goes a bit beyond "a bit" I would think.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Jun 27, 2011 21:03:54 GMT -5
Well, then, oldtex. Instead of talking about people, including liberals, conservatives, libertarians, or whomever, why don't we talk about the issues, instead? mmhmm, you can't discuss politics without discussing the parties and the ideologies. And yes, that includes the characteristics as shown by the actions of said parties. That is what political discussion IS. Are you even interested in politics?? Marsha, I'm not talking about discussions involving political figures. I'm talking about the discussions disintegrating into insults flung at other posters, and whole groups of people who are NOT politicians. Discussing politicians is one thing. Labeling "all liberals" or "all conservatives" is entirely different. One is political discussion. The other is flinging dirt.
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Shirina
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Post by Shirina on Jun 27, 2011 21:03:58 GMT -5
You know what, oldtex? You're right, I do ... and I make no apologies for it. But I will explain to you precisely why I do what I do.
Each and every time I log in, even before a click a thread, I see nothing but liberal hate. In fact, the LAST time I was here, there was actually a thread called "Why we hate liberals." I'm not kidding. I'm also getting tired of people posting nonsense articles written by conservatives detailing why liberals hate America, why liberals hate God, why liberals hate Jews, why liberals hate families, why liberals hate capitalism, why liberals hate mom, apple pie, baseball, and Chevrolet.
And I learn all of this before I even click on a thread.
By the time I do, my blood is boiling to the point where I'm in hunting mode, and as long as I keep coming here and seeing liberal hate threads, I will continue to hunt.
That's who I am.
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vonnie6200
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Post by vonnie6200 on Jun 27, 2011 21:07:12 GMT -5
A BIT restrictive? Concentration camps for the poor and disabled goes a bit beyond "a bit" I would think. I'm not sure what you are talking about - but when they are spending my money, and they are if it's public assistance - it should be a bit restrictive. If they don't like restrictive, then they should go earn their own money. And I know you are going to think I am a bit harsh - but consider this, I am now entering the wonderful world of medicare thru elderly relatives. Medicare is restrictive. There are guidelines to what they get, how much and/or how long they get and how they go about getting it. Jump thru the hoops or no soup for yoU Concentration camps? This really makes no sense.
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Post by marshabar1 on Jun 27, 2011 21:15:28 GMT -5
What? This is about ME again? Oh good. Benjamin Franklin anyone?
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Shirina
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Post by Shirina on Jun 27, 2011 21:19:46 GMT -5
The same people who believe that poverty should be so harsh that it drives people into employment are the very first people who wouldn't hire a 50 year-old welfare lifer to sweep his floors.
And even if they CLAIM they would (easy to do when one doesn't have to prove it), they are exceptions. MOST employers wouldn't touch these people.
I just find it astounding that the same conservatives who whine incessantly about our high unemployment rate are the same people who whine that people on welfare aren't working.
WTF?
Am I the ONLY person who sees the contradiction here?
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Post by BeenThere...DoneThat... on Jun 27, 2011 21:37:22 GMT -5
The same people who believe that poverty should be so harsh that it drives people into employment are the very first people who wouldn't hire a 50 year-old welfare lifer to sweep his floors. And even if they CLAIM they would (easy to do when one doesn't have to prove it), they are exceptions. MOST employers wouldn't touch these people. I just find it astounding that the same conservatives who whine incessantly about our high unemployment rate are the same people who whine that people on welfare aren't working. WTF? Am I the ONLY person who sees the contradiction here? ...imo, yes... because you see what you want to see, not what is...
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Shirina
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Post by Shirina on Jun 27, 2011 21:41:05 GMT -5
I see. So you think that a high unemployment rate, resulting in a tougher and more competitive job market, makes absolutely no difference to someone on welfare - especially for an extended period - trying to reenter the workforce?
You think they can just lift themselves off the sofa, wander down the street, and there will be job offers galore just waiting for them, right?
Because the reason why the unemployment rate is so high, obviously, is because employers are holding out for the welfare folks. They're turning away qualified and experienced applicants and are hoping beyond hope that the guy who hasn't held a job in 15 years finally wants to work. That MUST be it.
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Post by marshabar1 on Jun 27, 2011 21:47:23 GMT -5
Ever notice how sometimes you help a person and all of sudden they aren't your friend anymore. We've had that happen a few times. It's a weird thing. We loaned one guy money once to get his car repaired. He started looking at us like he hated us. I figured he felt we thought we owned him or felt better than him?? We didn't change, never occurred to us that the loan would be anything but a straight forward loan that he'd pay back over time. He paid some of it. We lost touch.
I just think that being on the dole does damage to a person's psyche in some way. I think it creates bitterness and all the attendant problems. I think parents probably end up teaching their children to despise the system and the people who are helping them.
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Post by BeenThere...DoneThat... on Jun 27, 2011 21:59:13 GMT -5
I see. So you think that a high unemployment rate, resulting in a tougher and more competitive job market, makes absolutely no difference to someone on welfare - especially for an extended period - trying to reenter the workforce? You think they can just lift themselves off the sofa, wander down the street, and there will be job offers galore just waiting for them, right? Because the reason why the unemployment rate is so high, obviously, is because employers are holding out for the welfare folks. They're turning away qualified and experienced applicants and are hoping beyond hope that the guy who hasn't held a job in 15 years finally wants to work. That MUST be it. ...well, I'm not even sure which discussion points you're making...
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Post by BeenThere...DoneThat... on Jun 27, 2011 22:01:30 GMT -5
Ever notice how sometimes you help a person and all of sudden they aren't your friend anymore. We've had that happen a few times. It's a weird thing. We loaned one guy money once to get his car repaired. He started looking at us like he hated us. I figured he felt we thought we owned him or felt better than him?? We didn't change, never occurred to us that the loan would be anything but a straight forward loan that he'd pay back over time. He paid some of it. We lost touch. I just think that being on the dole does damage to a person's psyche in some way. I think it creates bitterness and all the attendant problems. I think parents probably end up teaching their children to despise the system and the people who are helping them. ...did you catch the TBBT episode where Sheldon loans Penny some money to get tide her over until her ex-boyfriend paid her back? She kept flipping out about every little thing that cost anything, until she paid him back... that was a funny, and poignant, episode...
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deziloooooo
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Post by deziloooooo on Jun 27, 2011 22:08:25 GMT -5
Ever notice how sometimes you help a person and all of sudden they aren't your friend anymore. We've had that happen a few times. It's a weird thing. We loaned one guy money once to get his car repaired. He started looking at us like he hated us. I figured he felt we thought we owned him or felt better than him?? We didn't change, never occurred to us that the loan would be anything but a straight forward loan that he'd pay back over time. He paid some of it. We lost touch. I just think that being on the dole does damage to a person's psyche in some way. I think it creates bitterness and all the attendant problems. I think parents probably end up teaching their children to despise the system and the people who are helping them. Now there I agree with you, has happened to me a few times..it wasn't the $ that was never paid back but the so called friendship that was lost, though in rhetospect it was a one sided friendship it seems in all cases, minhe toward niot the other way back. Possible the thing is , when one has to turn to friends or aquaintences for help, financially, it is a indication as to how fragile the one looking for the help is, unable to go to a normal money lending institution to get the loan, as they , the ones who grant the loans, are looking at the one looking for the loan in anything but a look of friendship, strickly as a credit worthy or non credit worthy individual..no emotions or friendships involved here.
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Post by marshabar1 on Jun 27, 2011 22:10:30 GMT -5
mmhmm, you can't discuss politics without discussing the parties and the ideologies. And yes, that includes the characteristics as shown by the actions of said parties. That is what political discussion IS. Are you even interested in politics?? Marsha, I'm not talking about discussions involving political figures. I'm talking about the discussions disintegrating into insults flung at other posters, and whole groups of people who are NOT politicians. Discussing politicians is one thing. Labeling "all liberals" or "all conservatives" is entirely different. One is political discussion. The other is flinging dirt. I guess you didn't notice djlungrot make a personal comment about who I like examining my urine? Yeah, I agree personal comments about other posters, or as you put it flinging dirt, is not very nice and I didn't really like it very much. That comment in response to the entire OP. Nobody ever seems to notice when except if it comes from a conservative though.
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Shirina
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Post by Shirina on Jun 27, 2011 22:13:05 GMT -5
Despite your anecdote, which isn't the norm, being on the dole DOES cause damage. I will agree with you. MOST people on welfare really do want to work, to make a difference, and to earn their own way. Everyone I have ever known who had to be on welfare hated it. The reason why your friend probably lost touch was because he was too embarrassed to even be your friend.
Yes, there are those who game the system and sit on welfare most of their lives, but they aren't the majority. The reason is simple psychology: Almost EVERYONE wants to feel useful. That is inescapable, even if some people have managed to bury that feeling enough to avoid getting a job.
But that does NOT mean that we should shuffle people off to barracks, seize their possessions, deny them voting rights, etc. Most people are not always on welfare, and low income folks will often go in and out of needing assistance.
There is no reason to display so much hatred and animosity toward the poor ... and even less against the disabled ... unless your greed overrides your sense of humanity.
I'm sure you have me on ignore (cowards resort to such measures), but at least others will see this.
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fairlycrazy23
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Post by fairlycrazy23 on Jun 27, 2011 22:13:53 GMT -5
One example of what we are paying for. There is a woman with two kids in the area. She gets free food, rent subsidy, and a welfare check. The woman is about 45, she weighs 400 lbs. if she weighs an ounce, the kids are both badly over weight. Their biggest problem is that they are so overweight all they do is sit and eat. Soon the kids will have serious health problems just like the mother. Now they got this way by having no personal responsibility for their health etc. But why should they? We pay their medical bills, supply them with plenty of junk food and pay them to do so. Something is wrong with this picture. The sad thing this type of behavor is not an isolated story in America today. No one should starve but there has to be a line drawn in the sand somewhere. America is tired of paying for this nonsense. Hopefully at least these kids might not reproduce, but most likely they will pop out a few and keep gravy train rolling.
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Shirina
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Post by Shirina on Jun 27, 2011 22:14:54 GMT -5
Oh well. I'm sure someone else does.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Jun 27, 2011 22:19:04 GMT -5
The way I read dj's post, it wouldn't be about you, personally, unless you're on welfare. I'm fairly certain you're not on welfare, so the original use of the word "you" was a generic "you", and the last use referred to "you" (you, personally) liking to see welfare recipients' urine studied, marsha. I believe you did say you favored urine tests for those requiring welfare assistance. Several of us said we had no objection to that.
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Post by marshabar1 on Jun 27, 2011 22:22:35 GMT -5
The way I read dj's post, it wouldn't be about you, personally, unless you're on welfare. I'm fairly certain you're not on welfare, so the original use of the word "you" was a generic "you", and the last use referred to "you" (you, personally) liking to see welfare recipients' urine studied, marsha. I believe you did say you favored urine tests for those requiring welfare assistance. Several of us said we had no objection to that. Oh my mistake. Should I apologize to lungrot for not answering the nice question about my urine?
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Jun 27, 2011 22:31:23 GMT -5
If he had been talking about your urine, as opposed to welfare recipients' urine, you wouldn't owe him an apology. He was speaking of welfare recipients' urine, however.
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