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Post by marshabar1 on Jun 27, 2011 9:33:39 GMT -5
Got this email. I like these ideas. How about you? What's right with them? What's wrong with them?
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Driftr
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Post by Driftr on Jun 27, 2011 9:35:38 GMT -5
So let it be written, so let it be done.
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Bluerobin
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Post by Bluerobin on Jun 27, 2011 9:50:20 GMT -5
I like it!
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Mad Dawg Wiccan
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Rest in Peace
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Post by Mad Dawg Wiccan on Jun 27, 2011 10:03:27 GMT -5
This part is ridiculous. Since when does Medicade pay for piercings or tattoos?
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Post by BeenThere...DoneThat... on Jun 27, 2011 10:08:28 GMT -5
This part is ridiculous. Since when does Medicade pay for piercings or tattoos? ...I took it as a reference to disposable income displayed... and Medicaid would pay to treat infection from either...
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fairlycrazy23
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Post by fairlycrazy23 on Jun 27, 2011 10:09:49 GMT -5
This part is ridiculous. Since when does Medicade pay for piercings or tattoos? I'm not sure I would go this far, but the idea is that if there is money to waste on piercings and tattoos then maybe they shouldn't be sucking money out of society.Same with alcohol and nicotine with the additional factor that both items are 'bad' for you.
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Post by BeenThere...DoneThat... on Jun 27, 2011 10:10:31 GMT -5
...same goes for mani/pedis and cosmetic hair treatments... Medicaid would pay to treat infections from any injury from these, too...
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2011 10:55:01 GMT -5
Well-- I've been a working poor person for about 12 years now, and I don't have streaked hair, fancy nails, plasma TV, Xbox, don't even OWN a car. I either paid cash or had insurance for all 5 of my childbirths, don't drink or do drugs by choice, but certainly could not afford them, no tats or piercings, tats ARE expensive.. and I raised my kids on beans, rice, cereals, dairy, fruits and veggies, which we really could not afford, either. I see no reason for people on welfare to have more than working poor people not on welfare have. Hardly seems fair, but I noticed in my cab job driving medical welfare that MANY of the young people I drove had all of the above. Our only "luxuries" over the years were cable TV and eventually a computer and internet. My kids all started working young, too, so they could buy cars, pay insurance, have clothes, make-up, things like that-- and also, as soon as any of them finished school and started working full time they started paying rent and buying groceries. On top of that we have stuck together so all of us could have a better life rather than living in dumpy apartments somewhere. It is my opinion that families should do everything in their power to make things work for them before expecting any one else to help them, and if they do-- expect to follow the conditions set for using other people's money. I'm okay with all of the above. If people don't want gov't minding their business-- don't get involved with gov't programs. If it happens through some legit misfortune, and a person is honest about their situation it really should be no problem. The only ones that have to worry are the ones spending lots of money on things they should not be able to afford if they are so poor. I don't think this will ever happen, though.
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mmhmm
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It's a great pity the right of free speech isn't based on the obligation to say something sensible.
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Post by mmhmm on Jun 27, 2011 11:05:54 GMT -5
I've got no problem with most of it. I do believe, however, if the person is willing to follow the rules set they should be just as entitled to vote as anyone else. I'd also put a limit on how long these folks could collect government funds before being expected to provide for themselves. This would mandate providing job training for those who need it and enough jobs to go around.
One problem I see: The guy that wrote this can't possibly do all he's talking about doing all by himself. It's going to take a very large number of people to ensure it works correctly. These jobs have to be funded, as well. To get something like this going will require expenditures up-front. Are people willing to fund it in this economy?
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Jun 27, 2011 11:08:36 GMT -5
I've got no problem with any of it except the ban on voting.
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Shirina
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Post by Shirina on Jun 27, 2011 11:33:20 GMT -5
So fascism is okay as long as it is directed at the poor?
I mean, do these rules apply to the disabled, as well? Should they be forced into living in a barracks with daily inspections? Should they be denied the right to vote? Should their food choices be micromanaged?
It's not their fault they're disabled, so why treat them as if they've done something wrong?
I'm sure most who agree with such draconian measures have an eye toward those who are fraudsters and generational welfare families, but should everyone who requires such assistance be treated as if they are criminals?
I have serious issues with the morality of such a program. It is why I would never put a person like that in charge. America is, after all, the Land of the Free, but Americans seem to enjoy finding people to whom that freedom does not apply.
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Post by Mkitty is pro kitty on Jun 27, 2011 12:16:50 GMT -5
Ever notice how Conservatives unashamedly flout their unconstitutional wishes? But silly me, wearing a flag lapel, wrapping myself in the flag, and talking about "going back to the Constitution" (whatever that is since they never seem to have gone to it the first time) is a much better thing to do.
Also, let's put these things on people on corporate welfare. You people seem to dislike GE getting a huge return (of course this has nothing to do with Obama and Immelt, eh?) and you whine about the tax rate for the rich being so high without ever mentioning tax breaks, so to keep you honest, we might as well not give them any.
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mmhmm
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It's a great pity the right of free speech isn't based on the obligation to say something sensible.
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Post by mmhmm on Jun 27, 2011 12:23:05 GMT -5
Such rules should certainly not apply to the truly disabled. I'd think that would go without saying for most sentient beings. I don't agree that imposing such rules on collecting funds from the government can be equated with denying these people freedom. If we give them job training and ensure jobs are available, they're free to get a job just like everyone else. Those who cannot work because of real disabilities should be cared for by the rest of us. Few people are averse to that.
For the record, I'm not in favor of corporate welfare either!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2011 12:48:34 GMT -5
Such rules should certainly not apply to the truly disabled. I'd think that would go without saying for most sentient beings.
True mmhmm but we are talking liberals here. The HAVE to find that one tiny exception to the rule (that may account for less than 1% of the total) & build an argument around that. I'm kind of surprised that the person using that example didn't state it was a disabled baby (that's the norm), thus making everyone seem even more hard hearted.
Ever notice how Conservatives unashamedly flout their unconstitutional wishes? But silly me, wearing a flag lapel, wrapping myself in the flag, and talking about "going back to the Constitution" (whatever that is since they never seem to have gone to it the first time) is a much better thing to do.
I too have a problem with the part about not letting them vote. Having said that I do understand it though (even though I don't agree). To often has one party in this country (democrats) been allowed to buy votes with social programs. That allows people to literally vote money for themselves (a vote for democrats is a vote to continue my welfare checks). While I'm still against it, I do understand why someone would say that.
So fascism is okay as long as it is directed at the poor?
I find it funny as hell that someone calls it fascism to limit government paying people to do nothing but doesn't call that socialism. Now that's just funny.
I'm sure most who agree with such draconian measures. Actually in life those that pay the money are usually allowed to make the rules. Do you tell your boss what hours your willing to work on what days? Try it & I think you will find that he feels that he should makes those rules. Although liberals might not realize it (all the conservatives do) the days of funding open ended welfare programs are over. Also the days of whole families collecting welfare for generations are over. You guys need to find another way to buy votes. Oh & you also need to figure out a way to help those generations of the poor that you screwed by buying (cheaply) their beliefs that working is the way to better yourself.
Also, let's put these things on people on corporate welfare. You people seem to dislike GE getting a huge return (of course this has nothing to do with Obama and Immelt, eh?) and you whine about the tax rate for the rich being so high without ever mentioning tax breaks, so to keep you honest, we might as well not give them any.
Actually I think the argument is that there aren't enough rich people & those that we have aren't rich enough to support all of the socialist programs that we have & that your people want to start. It's pretty obvious if you have a calculator & I even started a thread a while back on it. Every liberal on this board missed that thread because they didn't want to argue with fact (& look dumb). Mkitty if you want I can repost it here (I saved it for something like this) just so you can take a look?
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reasonfreedom
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Post by reasonfreedom on Jun 27, 2011 13:42:02 GMT -5
So fascism is okay as long as it is directed at the poor? I mean, do these rules apply to the disabled, as well? Should they be forced into living in a barracks with daily inspections? Should they be denied the right to vote? Should their food choices be micromanaged? It's not their fault they're disabled, so why treat them as if they've done something wrong? I'm sure most who agree with such draconian measures have an eye toward those who are fraudsters and generational welfare families, but should everyone who requires such assistance be treated as if they are criminals? I have serious issues with the morality of such a program. It is why I would never put a person like that in charge. America is, after all, the Land of the Free, but Americans seem to enjoy finding people to whom that freedom does not apply. Yes, ever heard of beggars can't be choosers? If we the people are giving out free food it should just be the basics. Getting basic food is being treated as wrong, be thankful you get food at all. The fact that you think poor people or disabled people have the right to higher quality free food or the same quality food as somebody making $12 an hour is ridiculous. If it is so immoral than why don't you give away all of the unnecessary items you have like a pc to somebody less fortunate than you. Yeah, I bet your one of those that talk the talk but don't walk the walk. I call BS on your part.
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Bluerobin
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Post by Bluerobin on Jun 27, 2011 13:58:45 GMT -5
I've got no problem with any of it except the ban on voting. Many of the welfare types just don't bother to vote anyway!
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Post by marshabar1 on Jun 27, 2011 14:36:08 GMT -5
I've got no problem with any of it except the ban on voting. Many of the welfare types just don't bother to vote anyway! Sure hope not. Might have last time. Probably won't this time.
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jkapp
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Post by jkapp on Jun 27, 2011 14:49:12 GMT -5
>>I'm sure most who agree with such draconian measures have an eye toward those who are fraudsters and generational welfare families, but should everyone who requires such assistance be treated as if they are criminals? << So you must also be against all of the TSA screening and such...?? >>I have serious issues with the morality of such a program. It is why I would never put a person like that in charge. America is, after all, the Land of the Free, but Americans seem to enjoy finding people to whom that freedom does not apply. << Yet people do not have the freedom to keep the money they earned...it must be forcefully confiscated and paid out by how the politicians see fit...
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Post by marshabar1 on Jun 27, 2011 14:59:05 GMT -5
>>I'm sure most who agree with such draconian measures have an eye toward those who are fraudsters and generational welfare families, but should everyone who requires such assistance be treated as if they are criminals? << So you must also be against all of the TSA screening and such...?? >>I have serious issues with the morality of such a program. It is why I would never put a person like that in charge. America is, after all, the Land of the Free, but Americans seem to enjoy finding people to whom that freedom does not apply. << Yet people do not have the freedom to keep the money they earned...it must be forcefully confiscated and paid out by how the politicians see fit... cdn.pimpmyspace.org/media/pms/c/xn/n8/8l/fencing.gif[/img]Touche' ;D
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floridayankee
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Post by floridayankee on Jun 27, 2011 15:10:59 GMT -5
Many of the welfare types just don't bother to vote anyway! Considering actual voter turnout, you can say that about any segment of the population. Nobody needs to be banned from voting when the majority of people don't exercise their right to vote anyway.
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The Virginian
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Post by The Virginian on Jun 27, 2011 15:28:11 GMT -5
Funny - Many of them showed up at the last election - Promised free health care and lord knows what else!
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Shirina
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Post by Shirina on Jun 27, 2011 15:43:29 GMT -5
And there it is ... disabled people. I knew some slimy conservative hack would put disabled people into the concentration camps right along side Octomom.
"Those who deny freedom to others deserve it not for themselves."
-Abraham Lincoln
Well, well, oldtex. Look at the quote from "reasonfreedom." Do you see how he includes disabled people in the mix? Now do you comprehend why I NEEDED to ask about that so-called "tiny" exception? I knew there would be at least one greedy S.O.B. who would throw anyone under the bus as long as it meant a few extra pennies in his paycheck.
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Shirina
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Post by Shirina on Jun 27, 2011 15:44:59 GMT -5
LOL! So you must be one of those "zero tax" people. And you think liberals are Utopian? What a friggin' laugh and a half.
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reasonfreedom
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Post by reasonfreedom on Jun 27, 2011 16:13:23 GMT -5
And there it is ... disabled people. I knew some slimy conservative hack would put disabled people into the concentration camps right along side Octomom. "Those who deny freedom to others deserve it not for themselves." -Abraham Lincoln Well, well, oldtex. Look at the quote from "reasonfreedom." Do you see how he includes disabled people in the mix? Now do you comprehend why I NEEDED to ask about that so-called "tiny" exception? I knew there would be at least one greedy S.O.B. who would throw anyone under the bus as long as it meant a few extra pennies in his paycheck. not sure why you quoted me with your comments, because they have nothing to do with what I said. I never said to take any freedom from anybody and I never will. I never said not to provide for the disabled and definitely not anything about concentration camps. I don't appreciate being insulted and I am conservative/libertarian. In debate class we learn that you lost any reasonable argument when you resort to name calling or imagining up false statements for your opponents.
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Shirina
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Post by Shirina on Jun 27, 2011 16:19:45 GMT -5
As a liberal, I am insulted numerous times on this board. If you're looking for sympathy, you won't find it here. I don't coddle those playing the victim. I'm done being nice.
If moderators wish to preemptively ban me, that is fine, but I do not plan to keep the claws sheathed from here on out.
As to your quote, you appear more than willing to support the kind of ridiculous fascist measures introduced in the OP. You have certainly made no remarks against it. But when you say that disabled people shouldn't have the right to ... what? Live decently? Is that what you mean? It sure seems that way to me. After all $12/hour isn't all that much. In fact, it's less than half the national average salary.
Those who do not speak against the crazy rantings of the author's article yet post in this thread may as well openly support it as far as I'm concerned. That's just the way it is.
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jkapp
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Post by jkapp on Jun 27, 2011 16:25:44 GMT -5
>>As a liberal, I am insulted numerous times on this board. If you're looking for sympathy, you won't find it here. I don't coddle those playing the victim. I'm done being nice. << LOL...that's all you do is coddle those playing the victim. It's a liberal trademark... I would love it if you threw in some personal responsibility to the masses in there somehwere...yet it never seems to come up.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2011 16:32:16 GMT -5
I'm so glad I have ignore on right now.
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Shirina
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Post by Shirina on Jun 27, 2011 16:38:42 GMT -5
The ignore feature was a bad idea. In a few months, this board will be utterly useless as conservatives will have ignored all liberals and probably vice-versa as well. Then we'll just see one massive back-patting party - not that it wasn't that before.
As a liberal, I make the claim I am insulted more or less constantly on this forum ... and right on cue ... look what happens.
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reasonfreedom
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Post by reasonfreedom on Jun 27, 2011 16:44:18 GMT -5
As a liberal, I am insulted numerous times on this board. If you're looking for sympathy, you won't find it here. I don't coddle those playing the victim. I'm done being nice. If moderators wish to preemptively ban me, that is fine, but I do not plan to keep the claws sheathed from here on out. As to your quote, you appear more than willing to support the kind of ridiculous fascist measures introduced in the OP. You have certainly made no remarks against it. But when you say that disabled people shouldn't have the right to ... what? Live decently? Is that what you mean? It sure seems that way to me. After all $12/hour isn't all that much. In fact, it's less than half the national average salary. Those who do not speak against the crazy rantings of the author's article yet post in this thread may as well openly support it as far as I'm concerned. That's just the way it is. I thought one of the philosophies of liberals were to care for others. I am guessing since your done being nice your done being a liberal? Disabled people can live decently on what was described in the OP, if not I am sure you giving up your wages to all the disabled people will help. Oh, wait your done being nice so I guess you won't care about the disabled people either. I prefer you being nice, but it is your decision if you want to give up.
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jkapp
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Post by jkapp on Jun 27, 2011 16:51:09 GMT -5
The ignore feature was a bad idea. In a few months, this board will be utterly useless as conservatives will have ignored all liberals and probably vice-versa as well. Then we'll just see one massive back-patting party - not that it wasn't that before. As a liberal, I make the claim I am insulted more or less constantly on this forum ... and right on cue ... look what happens. Your insulted because I pointed out the enabling of victim-mentality by the left? Or that they never seem to tout personal responsibility in any of their arguments? What part was untrue and/or what part was insulting? I think you are mistaking insult with argument...
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