daylight
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Post by daylight on Dec 20, 2010 17:31:20 GMT -5
Hi all,
This is my second YM post. The first was provoked on the actual msn boards by the news of the forums being shut down. I am glad to see that many people made the transition over here.
Since this is now YM, and I have a money-related question, I'll post away.
My family is lower middle class by (a much disputed) definition, and I'm doing my best to become middle middle class or upper middle class.
The problem is that while my folks are proud of me and don't know the exact amount of money I make, they look at me as their financial savior every chance they got. Both my mom and dad have explicitly expressed their wish to be taken care of financially upon their retirement. Dad has even threatened to stop working at one point.
I love them dearly and they are very decent folks, but I'm still saving for a down-payment on my first home and cannot fund their retirement simultaneously.
I guess you get the picture from this. I know enough not to tell them the exact amount of money I make (yes, they asked outright on more than one occasion), but I'm also expected to pick up the bill on family outings, to bring the biggest holiday gift and to solve everyone's financial problems. I'm glad that I'm doing better than they were at this point in their life, I don't plan to abandon them in their old age but I don't want to be ripped off either. At this point both expect to get a fixed monthly (unrealistic) amount of money upon their retirement from me. (Dad asked for half my monthly salary.)
I'm renting (with a roommate), but we talk weekly and see each other monthly. We actually live close, so not seeing them every 4-6 weeks is not an option. I'd miss them. Unfortunately, they are not especially psychologically savvy and don't know how to deal with the situation. And I expect things to get worse as time goes by.
Any ideas on how to avoid being ripped off while helping them as much as I can and still remain on speaking terms in the long run? Do your folks know how much money you make (or at least the range)?
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ihearyou2
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Post by ihearyou2 on Dec 20, 2010 17:53:31 GMT -5
I find it unsual that parents would expect their children to take care of them. If that is the case I would make two points with the emphasis on the first.
1. I ain't taking care of you even if I'm a millionaire. You're adults and just like I'm now self-reliant the expectation is unless something drastic occurs that you'll take care of yourself.
2. FYI I'm not telling you how much money I'm making but even for small things like a free dinner here or there it ain't easy for me to cover based on my salary and costs so stop asking.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Dec 20, 2010 17:55:56 GMT -5
Any ideas on how to avoid being ripped off while helping them as much as I can and still remain on speaking terms in the long run? You might be better off on non or limited speaking terms. Sorry I can't give better advice. Do your folks know how much money you make (or at least the range)? Yes, but my mom knows there's no way in hell I could or would hand over half my paycheck.
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Dec 20, 2010 18:10:08 GMT -5
Wow, that is tough. I haven't been in that situation, so I can't give the best advice. I know there is a book called Boundaries that is supposed to be pretty good. It is about setting limits & sticking to them when dealing with people that tend to take advantage of you. I would just figure out what you are willing to do for them & then have a serious conversation telling them that you are willing to do X, but nothing more than that. Depending on the type of people they are, they may get really upset - whine, yell, beg, stop speaking to you, etc. You can't let any of these manipulation techniques work & need to stick to your guns & eventually they will understand your boundaries & hopefully respect them. Welcome to YM
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The J
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Post by The J on Dec 20, 2010 19:14:06 GMT -5
You need to set limits and enforce them. Unfortunately, you have to treat your parents like they're children -- they don't get exactly what they want, just because they want it.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Dec 20, 2010 19:55:39 GMT -5
My mother would allow me to support her in a heartbeat..however, I absolutely refuse to do it. I act poor and when she hits me up for money I tell her I am tapped out. Have a frank discussion with your parents and let them know that you need do not make as much money as they think (even if you do) and that, under no circumstance, can they count on you to support them. I honestly can't imagine expecting my child to support me
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SVT
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Post by SVT on Dec 20, 2010 20:23:28 GMT -5
Do your folks know how much money you make (or at least the range)? I told my parents what I'm starting at for my first job out of college but I'm not saying anything from here on out.
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Empire the P.A.
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Post by Empire the P.A. on Dec 20, 2010 20:34:50 GMT -5
In some families its expected that grown chidren take care of their elderly parents. It was just tradition. I think its slowly going away from the old ways, especially with the more westernized families. I don't know how you will be able to handle your parents expectations without bad feelings from both sides. Good luck.
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cronewitch
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Post by cronewitch on Dec 20, 2010 22:27:51 GMT -5
Speak plainly to them and tell them to knock it off, you aren't their bank. Tell them flat out you need to fund your own life not theirs. Give them the idea you will not be a back up plan let alone a primary plan for retirement. If you decide to help them when they are too old to work it is a choice not obligation.
If they say they can't support themselves offer to get them a form to fill out for low income senior housing.
When they ask you for thing tell them "it isn't going to happen" in no uncertain terms. Don't kid them or make any promises or offers that will let them think quitting jobs will get them supported.
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quotequeen
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Post by quotequeen on Dec 20, 2010 22:48:55 GMT -5
Wow, your parents are way out of line. You need to make clear that it just isn't going to happen. And don't feel pressured to bring big holiday gifts either!
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Post by joynerk on Dec 20, 2010 23:04:05 GMT -5
Did they support their parents? I just can't imagine that type of dependent mentality. I agree with pp that you should come up with and set your own limits and make it clear what they are... However, I would discourage you from "lowballing" to allow negotiation, they might decide if they "won" once that they can continue coming back to renegotiate the terms of their "retirement". You do most definitely have to look out for yourself! This has to be an incredibly hard situation, stay strong!
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DVM gone riding
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Post by DVM gone riding on Dec 21, 2010 0:39:55 GMT -5
That's tough-My mom knows exactly what I make but she does my taxes. We always joke about "not telling dad" To other people I always slide in little comments about how I can't afford certain things because of the cost of other things. EX: Yeah I wish I could have the really fancy horse trailer (very common for lots of people around here to have 10-20k ones) but those student loans suck up a lot of money. OR I can't afford to go out to eat the car payments take up a lot of my expendable income. Neither of these things are strictly true of me but others can relate and then I can save like crazy for the future.
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❤ mollymouser ❤
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Post by ❤ mollymouser ❤ on Dec 21, 2010 0:47:28 GMT -5
I agree with the above posters .... Be direct. Be clear. But make it clear that (1) you aren't supporting them in their old age and (2) you aren't discussing money with them (much less loaning or giving them any.)
And I agree that you may benefit from reading the book "Boundaries" (available at the library or used from half.com or amazon.com, I'm sure!)
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haapai
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Post by haapai on Dec 21, 2010 9:04:14 GMT -5
This is a far more emotionally naked post than has been seen on the old YM recently.
If there's an immigrant angle to this story, you should probably mention it. Your family appears very good at pulling your strings and it would be helpful to know which ones they were working with.
The demands for set, unrealistic amounts strike me as manipulative. It really strikes me as a variant of the over-priced turkey trick. By setting the numbers very high, they make smaller numbers seem more reasonable and take the question of why you should be providing support off the table entirely.
I don't know what to say about a parent who uses such tactics.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2010 9:18:06 GMT -5
Like haapai, I believe there is another culture with a different set of expectations involved than what is usually seen in American culture. Yes, parents do sometimes come to live with one of the kids and is essentially supported, but that is different from expecting an adult daughter or son to hand over half the paycheck.
Please elaborate, but understand our perspective may not be helpful if we aren't participants in that culture.
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haapai
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Post by haapai on Dec 21, 2010 9:27:51 GMT -5
Please elaborate, but understand our perspective may not be helpful if we aren't participants in that culture.
But wouldn't it be wonderful if someone from that culture were here and able to say "Balderdash! That's not how it works. Your parents are just asking way too much."
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kgb18
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Post by kgb18 on Dec 21, 2010 14:10:54 GMT -5
I agree with everyone else. You need to sit down and just be firm in telling them that you will not be funding their retirement.
I also agree that it would be helpful to have more information about your/their situation. Is there a cultural difference we're missing? Do they have any retirement funds?
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daylight
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Post by daylight on Dec 21, 2010 15:56:59 GMT -5
Thank you all for the support and the advice you have offered.
It really stood out to me how absolutely nobody thought that my parents’ expectations were acceptable.
hapaii - Good call on the cultural difference angle but it does not figure as much as you may think.
I’m from Europe (no, not Italy=), but trust me, I have not heard of anyone giving away half their paycheck so that their (thank goodness perfectly healthy) dad can stop working just because he would rather devote himself to his hobbies. Since distances are a lot smaller than in the US, yes, you’re “culturally” expected to visit elderly parents a couple of times per year, but that’s about it. Neighbors would gossip about you not visiting at all, but nobody would force you to show up.
In fact – and that’s why I think that the cultural differences don’t really count – here, the usual adult parent/adult child relationship is centered on the adult parents offering help (financial and in-kind) long after said adult child moved out. I have a co-worker, who would literally bring his laundry home for his mom, even though he has a top of the line washing machine. Lots of co-workers bring the Sunday lunch leftovers to work, parents would invite you along for their vacation knowing that you are saving for a down payment and cannot afford one etc.
Your posts helped me realize that my problem is two-fold...and this was a huge revelation for me.
As for No. 1, I think that I’ll have to accept that my parents truly are, as RedHead Mama put it, dependent. When I first read her comment, I thought that the phrase “dependent mentality” was an exaggeration, but I have come to realize that it’s true. I can accept that I’m making X amount of money and can afford a certain (at the moment frugal) lifestyle. And my parents should be able to do the same!!! All my life, I listened to them explaining to me how their chances were limited, how they had bad luck, how they could be in a better position if this and that happened. I understand that accidents happen and life happens but at some point you have to come to terms with your life, right? I’d love to help them, but who’s going to finance my life(style)? And when will they finally assume liability for their own lives?
And it’s not like our family was hit by a series of misfortune. I did not grow up in poverty and none of them is disabled. In fact, I think that they are more or less doing okay with their talents and background.
Is this called victim mentality? I guess there isn’t any chance of them changing, is there?
I’m definitely looking forward to reading Boundaries. The library may not work for me, but I may be able to pick up a cheaper copy at the beginning of next year supposing that overseas purchases are somehow affected by the January sales.=)
As for No. 2, which is probably best put as parents dealing with the success of their children: Do you think that parents sans the victim mentality do okay in that regard?
My climbing the social ladder and having (supposedly) more financial freedom is such a huge family issue. And interestingly enough, it’s a non-issue with my friends.
Most of them come from middle middle class families and while they make less than I do, they get support from their own parents, so most are financially ahead of me. We can always agree on where to eat out (it’s a once a month thing) and like to undertake stuff in our free time that’s free or at least cheap (think walks, cooking together, wanderings). We discuss sales, groceries/dress purchases, and we encourage each other not to purchase brand name stuff but to save up instead.
Getting back briefly to No. 1, I’d have to think long and hard about my strings. I really liked hapaii’s comment on how asking for a set amount simply excludes not giving them any money at all. You’re absolutely right. Both my maternal and paternal grandparents lived within their means and managed to even save some percentage of their retirement (SS) checks. Mom and dad helped them by driving them to the hospital and taking care of the weekend shopping when they were over 70, but to my knowledge, it was my grandparents who insisted on helping them as long as they lived (as far as financial contributions are concerned). They did not sponge off their own parents in any spectacular fashion, but they – at least this is how I perceived the situation as a kid - could not find a polite way to refuse their assistance.
Before I give you an incorrect impression of my parents’ relationship with money, it’s important that you know that both my parents do live within their means (they have been separated for over 15 years and never remarried). So it’s more about how they have never come to terms with their own lifestyle, and due to their victim mentality and dependency, always expect someone to help them out.
I hope you don’t mind my starting the thread despite not being from the US, but I saw people post from Canada, the UK, and France even and I noticed that some of the advice given is not location bound.
I’ll have to think about my “strings” a bit more, but I wanted to get back to everyone before you conclude that I am a troll.=)
Inspired by the many YM threads I have read, I have cut my Christmas budget to 1/3 this year and saved the difference, so I definitely won’t be the one putting the most expensive gifts under the tree.
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kgb18
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Post by kgb18 on Dec 21, 2010 16:13:35 GMT -5
daylight, it's great that you started a thread, no matter what country you're from! It sounds like you know what you need to do and just needed a little validation that how you are feeling isn't wrong.
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Post by joynerk on Dec 21, 2010 16:57:16 GMT -5
Daylight - Glad to provide a different perspective which has allowed you to view the situation in another light. I almost deleted my post (didn't want you to think I was criticizing or making erroneous assumptions) since I'm new, but thank you for giving me confidence that I might actually have something useful to say! ;D This is still a tough place your parents are putting you in, and it's even worse than I initially thought! With separate households, they aren't coming to you as a unit, but individually! WOW! Good luck with this one! As difficult as it may be, distancing yourself may be the best route, at least until they understand your situation.
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tloonya
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Post by tloonya on Dec 21, 2010 17:13:20 GMT -5
/I love them dearly and they are very decent folks/ followed by /Dad asked for half my monthly salary/
They are moochers! Wake up and tell them off. They are not decent folks. They are shameless extorsionists and you have to put your foot down! Listen I lived with my Ma for 10 years (until she was picked up by a man who supports her now) and I had provided for her. But if she was TELLING me how much she wants - she would get bread and water. Period! So see for yourself!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2010 20:14:33 GMT -5
I'm betting that they are going to "hint" you to death over this & then retire & expect you to kick in what they want (not what you can afford). So......I thing you need to take the bull by the horns & sit down & take to them about their unreal expectations. Get it out in the open & let them know what you will & WON'T do.
That could come to pass for me to early next week. My DIL explained to me that she believes that parents should live for their kids (take care of them more or less) not to long ago. If she brings it up again I'll explain that I have a somewhat different view. I believe that if I see a rare piece of crystal (or as she calls it clutter) that cost's a little more than I have on hand I have the right to sell her body to a glue factory. It should make an interesting dialog.
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cronewitch
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Post by cronewitch on Dec 22, 2010 1:00:03 GMT -5
Oldtex you are right you have a right to sell old nags to the glue factory.
I am lucky to come from a family where we don't have moochers older than 21. One niece is rather well off but that doesn't mean anyone would asked them for money or expect them to spend more. They are doing Christmas and most holidays now but only because her mother asked her to because she doesn't like her new house. We all do what we can to make it easy and cheap for her. I am taking deviled eggs, check party mix and stuff celery, her mom will bring dinner rolls and pies everyone brings food like we would if she was poor. She buys gifts she wants to buy and we buy her what we want to buy her. She and I don't usually give each other anything but I got her a really cool Kitchen Aide mixer last year because I think they are cool and she can use it to make cookies. She is much richer than I am but that doesn't mean I expect to get any benefit from that. I am much richer than her brother but he wouldn't expect me to spend more on him than I felt like. Kids get charity from family when they leave home and get first places to live and a little food assistance until they are stable with jobs. Once they start showing off they lose all future charity, if you can afford a new car you can afford food.
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so1970
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Post by so1970 on Dec 22, 2010 6:45:54 GMT -5
wow i always figured that parents wanted to see kids grow into responsible adults so they could stop supporting them not so they could be supported by them. good luck
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Anne_in_VA
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Post by Anne_in_VA on Dec 22, 2010 11:19:02 GMT -5
I don't have any advice for you but I do agree with some of the other posters that you need to set the boundaries with your family - and quick!
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Post by keiks on Dec 22, 2010 15:22:46 GMT -5
i definitely detected a cultural difference in your original post. i encourage you to set limits. i have some friends, their parents are mexican immigrants. very nice people but low low levels of education, worked blue collar jobs but worked hard for many years to put a roof over the kids head and food on the table. fast forward many years and the kids are now all college graduates and on their way to successful lives (although one can't find work due to the economy). but they are hindered because mom and dad have a cultural expectation of being supported. the parents wanted them to move back home and dad recently had to stop working due to disability and now the kids are expected to support them including the expensive medical copays, mortgage, car repairs and insurance, cell phones and groceries. the parents say "why did we bring you to america and set you up for a successful life if you weren't going to support us?" like i said, they are nice but it's just.... DIFFERENT. the parents believe a 45k salary to be a true fortune. unfortunately it doesn't go far with student loan and cc debt and a family that believes you can buy them luxuries like cable TV and cell phones. the parents needs come first and my friends are wrecking their credit scores to meet their parents' demands cause of the guilt trip. they are having trouble getting off to a good start on their own lives, financially and socially. they are hindered by cultural responsibilities, and they don't have the luxury of finding a boyfriend or girlfriend who understands this dynamic because they live in america now. who wants to have a guy bring her back to his parent's house?
my friends are slowly working on changing their parents expectations, but my point is, don't let this be you.
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daylight
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Post by daylight on Dec 22, 2010 18:24:57 GMT -5
Them being separated is a blessing in disguise, as they don't talk to each other at all. Consequently, I can present different excuses when they hint at their expectations. On the other hand, it really does take double effort to keep them at bay.
Crone - thanks for posting about how your family handles the differences in income and wealth. Just the very thought that people with different lifestyles and income can co-exist as a family helps me enormously.
Oldtex and everyone else who suggested I talk to them directly and state that I won't be the bank for the rest of their lives - this helped me realize that the sooner we have this discussion, the more time they have to get used to the idea that they are being responsible for their own lives. I decided not to lowball and actually stand up for myself.
As much as I love them, I can't imagine running up a CC debt to pay for enhancing their lifestyle (CC is a lot harder to obtain here than in the US, so it's not like I'm in instant danger). But paying an "alimony" from my savings is not much better either. I'm so glad I have not started anything like that.
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Post by moneywhisperer on Dec 22, 2010 20:18:25 GMT -5
Get them a book on Retirement Planning! There's no chapter on your kids supporting you!
Good Luck. This is a really hard situation when parents try to victimize the kids. I wish you the best.
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DVM gone riding
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Post by DVM gone riding on Dec 22, 2010 22:25:34 GMT -5
I make more than my parents have most of their lives, and certainly in the last few years. My parents are proud as punch of me, still help me some (though mostly aid not money) and don't expect anything from me. But I don't show off the money and complain regularly about the cost of SLs So we don't have any issues, I also accept that I will put a roof over my mom's head if that time ever comes. I find my friends to be a much bigger issue since we are the same age but I am making double most of them.
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Urban Chicago
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Post by Urban Chicago on Dec 23, 2010 15:14:08 GMT -5
One more thing to say:
If you expect me to provide any support to you later, than I expect to have equal say in all financial decisions you are making now, as they affect me too. Let's take a look at your bank accounts, debts, and paychecks, get you on a budget, and and assess what you actually need.
I predict they'll get mad, refuse to let you see anything, and tell you to keep your money if you're going to be so mean about it:)
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