Class transition..and getting the ball rolling

[Deleted]

I really like Urban Chicago's idea. I know that would stop my parents in their tracks!

[HoneyBBQ]

Step 1 is always identifying the problem, which is sounds like you have.

Step 2 is fixing the problem. It's a lot harder said than done. Telling your parents that you won't be financing their retirements may result in several different possibilities including some or all of the following: yelling, crying, cajoling, threatening suicide, and guilt trips. Depending on how much your parents will try to manipulate you, they may even threaten to disown you.

So be prepared for the worst and hope for the best. Stick to your guns and be prepared to walk away. Good luck.

[daylight]

Urban Chicago - thank you, I too, like your suggestion. A lot.

I decided to use a combination of everyone's suggestions and tell them (separately) that I'm not going to fund their retirement, period. And should they wish to engage me in their finances in any way, they should start with giving me a clear picture about their finances and let me have a say in it - or else, why bother?

You guys are also right about how they will up their manipulation. I'll try to prepare for the worst, go over worst case scenarios in my head, before I talk to them. It's awfully hard.
I've read enough threads to know that tough love works...man, I wish all those threads would not disappear in the next three weeks.

Thank you for all your insight.

[T Skeeter]

This story sounds much like the story that DW's family tells about her Grandfather. He was a Serbia native who came to the US. His family in Serbia apparently believed the "streets paved with gold" stories were to be taken literally. As the person in the family who was perceived as being wealthy, he was constantly subjected to requests by family members in Serbia. Not general requests for a bit of money, or the like. But requests for higher end luxury items by model number. Even turning over his interest in the family farm to his two sisters was not enough. Eventually, he broke off contact with his family in Serbia to avoid the endless requests.

To avoid ending up in the same situation, a candid conversation with both parents is in order. Something along the lines of "I'm not going to be able to provide for you in your retirement". Talk about money not going very far. That the more you make, the higher percentage of your income that is devoted to taxes. That high paying jobs come with expectations that increase living expenses (like wearing suits to work vs. wearing a company provided uniform) and that the cost of paying off the loans that you may have taken out to acquire the education that generates a good income really eats into what you have available to spend. Then talk about wanting to do things like buy a house (like your parents probably did). Then talk about the need to plan for your retirement. That you don't have a pension, like your parents may have, that by the time you retire, social security may provide only a token portion of your expenses, and the impact of inflation on the cost of living, and anything else you can think of to try to get your parents to understand that they can't rely on your paycheck to support the three of you in the style to which they would like to become accustom.

Tough conversation to have. Good luck.

[WolfNoMate]

Sounds a bit like Korean culture, where the eldest son takes care of his parents in their retirement. HOWEVER, when the parents "retire", the eldest son ALSO receives most everything the parents own, home, business, assets, etc. Not sure if this is the case in other Asian cultures. It can make marriage prospects dicey in some cases. The DIL can/may be treated like a house slave by the FIL/MIL, so some women will not date a 1st son. Others only look for a 1st son, in the hope that she will be well off when the parents have passed on.

[whoisjohngalt]

It has always been my firm believe that it is our responsibility to take care of our parents as they age. It has also been my firm believe that "normal" parents don't want to burden their children unnecessary.

Your parent don't seem to have a problem with that. I don't know if there is a respectful way to convey the message that you want. To me, talking to them like they are children is not OK. I would simply say that I will try to help as best as I could if they are in dire straits, but fixed amounts or large amounts will most likely not be happening.

Who knows what will happen tomorrow? They might drop dead and you won't have this "problem" anymore. Is this REALLY the conversation you need to have right now?

Lena

[8 Bit WWBG]

...:::"Any ideas on how to avoid being ripped off while helping them as much as I can and still remain on speaking terms in the long run?":::...

You already know that it is unlikely this will be possible. If they act exactly as you describe, then they probably will hold a grudge once they learn you will not support them.

Also, expect any and every potential weapon to come out. They will try to guilt you by making you think they will be destitute, or that you owe them for whatever they did for you.

The earlier you stand firm, the better it will be. They already seem to think this is a done deal.

[dancinmama]

Dec 20, 2010 17:31:20 GMT -5 daylight said:

Hi all,

My family is lower middle class by (a much disputed) definition, and I'm doing my best to become middle middle class or upper middle class.

The problem is that while my folks are proud of me and don't know the exact amount of money I make, they look at me as their financial savior every chance they got.

I love them dearly and they are very decent folks, but I'm still saving for a down-payment on my first home and cannot fund their retirement simultaneously.

I guess you get the picture from this.

Any ideas on how to avoid being ripped off while helping them as much as I can and still remain on speaking terms in the long run? Do your folks know how much money you make (or at least the range)?

daylight: My only suggestion would be to live as poor as possible so that they do not think you have ANY money. When they ask for help, give them as much HELP as you can without it revealing what you really have or to the point of taking over responsibility for their financial situation. It is a fine line, and figuring out where to draw it is probably the tricky part; but that's what I'd do.

[shanendoah]

Coming from a slighltly different persepective, someone from a US background who has supported the MIL, and still has financial DPOA. My MIL is not a nice person, and there are times when DH and I would both love to have nothing to do with her, but she's his mom, so there we are.
My parents do know what I make. MIL knows I make enough to pay the bills even though DH is unemployed. (She does not, however, know what her monthly income is, and won't as long as I have control of the matter.) I talk about finances with my mom fairly regularly, and have had some conversations with my dad. In my dad's family, we've all started talking about it a bit more as my grandparents' health is failing quickly and they have a fairly substantial estate. Its not money grubbing - we would all happily take a few extra years with my grandparents and have them leave nothing behind - but its reality and something that needs to be dealt with openly and honestly.
I've always found its best not to make any kind of decision in a vacuum, so I believe in talking about money. I learn from my parents, and they can learn from me.

In your case, sit down with each parent. Tell them you love them, that you appreciate all they have done for you, but that you can not afford to support them in retirement and still live your own life. Offer to look at their finances with them, to help them prepare for retirement, etc. Start looking at options for them to downsize their lives and prepare for what income they'll get on their pensions/SS. You can be financially supportive of your parents without financially supporting them. And this way, should you ever choose to give them money, or make a big gift, it can be done because you want to, not because its expected.

[haapai]

Jan 4, 2011 12:52:04 GMT -5 8 Bit WWBG said:

...:::"The earlier you stand firm, the better it will be. They already seem to think this is a done deal.

[daylight]

Thanks for all the new pieces of advice. I'm here and reading, just being sick and barely able to think coherently. Now that we have the holidays behind us, I can talk to them without ruining the holiday for everyone. Hope I'll be on my feet soon and can respond to all the kind posts as well.

[daylight]

1. Finally, I got a copy of Boundaries today. Will start reading now. Thank you for the excellent recommendation in advance.

2. I talked to my dad (separately) and told him that at the moment I cannot help him financially at all at the moment and in the next 2 years or so. His instant reply was that it was sad that I cannot earn enough to even slip him small amounts from time to time and that I should think of changing careers. I thought that he has not understood my point...BUT! Lo and behold, I visited him again a couple of weeks later and he has not once mentioned finances. It has sunk in!

3. Mom has not been bringing up the issue at all, so I thought I would let it be for the moment.

Thank you for your help!

[formerexpat]

I talked to my dad (separately) and told him that at the moment I cannot help him financially at all at the moment and in the next 2 years or so.

It may have sunk in or dad will wait for "2 years or so". It's this leading on that others have said you need to squash ASAP.

I suspect you expect to have a life of your own that you will be living and will hardly be able to subsidize dad's retirement wants.

[midjd]

Stay strong, Daylight! Glad to hear your dad took the news OK (although as formerexpat said, he may be counting down the 2 years...)

As someone with similarly dependent parents, it's good to be able to commiserate

[daylight]

Expat - thanks!
Am painfully aware that I'm just going to explain myself, which is not helping neither here on YM nor with dad.
I had a promotion coming my way, which my dad knew about (he knew about my promotion possibilities since my university days, it's kind of a fixed system, I would not tell him this now). Unfortunately, the promotion may or may not end up what I hoped for (for economic reasons, not because of my input), but that's my problem. Anyway, I just thought that telling him that the promotion will not provide for his retirement AND the fact that I'm not going to put up with his comments at all, will hurt him. There. Hence the leading on.

I knew it was not the final solution to the problem. I was planning to just plain tell him how hurt I am because of his constant comments, esp. since I talked to my sister, and she said that dad does not make the same comments to her (maybe because she has a much worse paying job and lesser education). But my sister came along to the next visit, and I did not want to do this in front of an audience. I have rehearsed the conversation in my head several times. Next deadline is Easter weekend, I guess.

Thank you for being honest with me.

[Opti]

"2. I talked to my dad (separately) and told him that at the moment I cannot help him financially at all at the moment and in the next 2 years or so. His instant reply was that it was sad that I cannot earn enough to even slip him small amounts from time to time and that I should think of changing careers. I thought that he has not understood my point...BUT! Lo and behold, I visited him again a couple of weeks later and he has not once mentioned finances. It has sunk in!"

I hope I'm wrong but I think his instant response is where his head is still at
and he hasn't given up on the idea of you supporting him. The fact that he thinks you should earn more so he can have it instead of him finding a part time job says he believes he should be supported by you and regularly no less, not occasionally.

[illinicheme]

Glad to hear you're having some progress!

[Knee Deep in Water Chloe]

Dec 20, 2010 17:31:20 GMT -5 daylight said:

Any ideas on how to avoid being ripped off while helping them as much as I can and still remain on speaking terms in the long run? Do your folks know how much money you make (or at least the range)?

I like what Chicago says, however I know that's easier thought than said.

My parents know what I make because it's public knowledge as I'm a "blessed" public employee and I often feel the need to correct my dad's misperceptions about what "great" benefits I get. However, I'm not sure they know how much DH makes, but they probably have a general idea.

ETA: I didn't realize I'd not read the whole thread, so I'm glad you have had the initial "no" conversation with your dad. Good luck and stay firm!!!

[Deleted]

Coming from a culture that is somewhat the same I can see what you are facing. In my case, the only parent that is expecting me to support them is my dad and he lives in Haiti.

But last year, I had to put a stop to it because I realised the more I gave in to his requests, the more he asked. It's like in his mind I had a money tree somewhere and the funds where limitless. I voluntary kept contact with him to a minimum and last time I sent him money was last August in the amount of $3,500 and it was the last time for a long while.

I say you just have to say no, you will help if you can but only if you can. Help them out with a budget, savings plan, debt repayment but that is it.

I've told my mom that alot of my uncles/aunts will be in for the schock of their lives when come retirement and the kids refuse to support them.

I only see 2 cousins that would be willing to support their parents, the others have their own lives or can barely support themselves

[zibazinski]

It isn't JUST a cultural thing. I have a gf and she and her husband are the first college graduates in both their families including siblings. WASP-y as they can come. Both have worked very hard all their lives and have a nice house and funded their kid's colleges. They recently took a nice trip to another country as well. Over the years they have traveled a lot and taken their kids and sometimes her mom along. Her parents are divorced and low income earners, his parents are married but also low income. She tells me they get "hit up" all the time by the parents and the siblings. They decided a long time ago to, one, blame the other spouse, and, two, ONLY buy certain replacement items and NEVER give cash or even loan it. For instance, they bought themselves a nicer tv and gave their old one to her mom. Did not buy mom the NEW tv. She says that because of their firm "no's" over the years, they don't get hit up as often but every time they do something, like the vacation, it starts up again. It's MORE subtle now so they just ignore the HINTS and the DIGS. IF you don't get this straight from day one you will become angry and resentful. We have posters who have spouses who support their families and the resentment is very clear. No future partner is going to be happy with that kind of setup that takes money out of the family account and could even hurt your children's futures.

[daylight]

Underwater Chloe - it's been going on so long, I'm not sure what I said to Dad and what not, anymore. I resolved that I'm going to tell him that his comments hurt, that I need to focus on saving for a down payment, that I'm planning to have at least 3 kids, and that I have been listening to him for what seems like half my life and my purpose in life is not paying for his retirement. I just did not get there, because my sister came along. This conversation is difficult to have, and he does not deserve to be told off in front of my sister, nor my sister listening to this. But it's become a priority.

But at least I know that I'm enabling him in some way and that it does not help him. It's just...he is around 60, I'm not sure he would change much and I would like to help him if needed to the extent I can afford it. I do want to have a relationship with him without being hit up for money. I want to help him on my terms though.

Thank you very much for your support, it won't be long now. I think my intentions are okay as far as my future family is concerned, but I need to put them into practice very soon, you are all dead on about is.

Zib, thanks for your post, it helped a lot.

[bean29]

The decision to help a family member out or not is always difficult. DH is the first in his family to graduate from college. My parents did not go to college but they had siblings and nieces and nephews that did before I got my BS.

When DH and I were first married and working my in-laws were our babysitters. MIL went above and beyond in the care she lavished on our family. When the kids got older and more independent, they came after school, cleaned the house, cut the lawn and left food for the family.

DH is finishing our basement to include an in-law suite just in case my in-laws decide to live with us. In-laws my not have enough to survive on their own, but if they move in with us they will not be broke or financially dependent on us. My kids have a similar attitude toward their Grandparents that their Dad and I do. They seem to understand that their Grandparents have really done right by us. It is a two way street for us.

It is hard though b/c my husband is one of 8 children and sometimes you wonder if something you do with the intent of making your parent's lives easier only results in them freeing up money to help someone much less deserving than them.

I think what you are doing with your parents is correct, I just wanted to express that not all Mexicans expect their children to support them. My in-laws are very independent. We have spent years with our lives separate but intertwined and I just will not be at peace if they are not in a good place.

As Cawiau expressed Not all children share the feeling of responsibility toward their parents. My husbands youngest brothers were born in the US and are more ME centered. My Husband (2nd oldest) the oldest and the Middle child seem to be the ones that are concerned about helping their parents.

For us, part of preserving our financial independence has been to help my in-laws see that the requests for financial assistance their children make of them are unreasonable. I am very proud of my MIL and her varied ways to say no. They still do break down sometimes, but so do we. In-laws would be in a much worse place without our direction though.

Hope Boundaries helps, seems as though you have made the initial steps with your Dad, but I would try to get him to plan to not retire for a few years to build up his "nest egg". Hopefully the suggestion of financial planning might get his unreasonable expectations.

[daylight]

Happy Easter to all!

I have gone out, met my dad and did the right thing. I told him how my mom made exact requests of my support for over a decade (yeah, I know, not him, but he picked up on what I meant), but I also added that I feel that they have unfair expectations of me when they stress the importance of financial support and that it is an enormous weight for me to carry.

I told him how I have the same degree of love and support in my heart for them that they raised me with. I told him that I am responsible first and foremost for my own life, and I have to take care of my own needs. I told him I could lose my job, I still have to save money for a down payment, and even then it's my turn and choice to decide if/when and how to help them.

Naturally, it took him by absolute surprise. Otherwise, we have great conversations, and we have just finished one about mutual interests...and also, I think he never expected me to confront him about this.

He seemed toughtful and said that he would not seek my help unless his home collapsed on him due to a natural disaster.

I left immediately after, but I think it went well. It was easily the most difficult thing I have done this year, but so worth it. I did it for myself, but knowing that a lot of random strangers completely agree on this helped me a lot since last December.

I almost finished Boundaries, and have already read Boundaries in Dating. I'd again like to thank for the suggestion, as these books have changed much more than my relationship with my parents.

I know that both my mom and dad have an attitude, and this story is far from being over, but finally, I'm on the right track here, and this feels empowering.

Thank you, guys!

[gsbrq]

Congrats...way to be strong, honest, & respectful. Hope it makes a lasting difference for the better in your relationship with your dad!