cereb
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Post by cereb on Jun 19, 2011 3:38:12 GMT -5
Well? Have at it!
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cereb
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Post by cereb on Jun 19, 2011 3:38:47 GMT -5
Sorry Henry ;D, just had to do it.
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txbo
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Post by txbo on Jun 19, 2011 4:37:03 GMT -5
Was needed for a time but time has past its usefulness.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Jun 19, 2011 4:43:01 GMT -5
My trouble with AA is that it's fundamentally inconsistent with the ideal of equality. You cannot logically "counter" inequality by imposing another type of inequality. If this were possible, a perfectly appropriate response to the perception that there are "too many" Jewish lawyers would be to summarily reject Jewish applicants and "level the playing field". In the same vein, AA has done more to enforce racial bias in recent decades than any racist propaganda.
Some have called AA the racism of low expectations, and I find this to be a fair definition. It's the notion that rather than appealing to the hearts and minds of society, we can eliminate one kind of racism by imposing another. Like trying to cure a fever by submerging oneself in an ice bath.
Well-intentioned, and perhaps worth a shot at first glance. But ultimately counterproductive.
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❤ mollymouser ❤
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Post by ❤ mollymouser ❤ on Jun 19, 2011 4:53:23 GMT -5
I just read this opinion piece on the topic and thought it raised some good points. Excerpts follow. The parts I like are highlighted.www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=44298While UC Riverside students said they supported affirmative action laws to promote diversity and that race-based preferences “level the playing field” for disadvantaged minorities, they nonetheless refused to sign a petition to apply quotas to the UC Riverside basketball team. At UC Riverside, 10 out of the 11 active players on the basketball team are black. Blacks make up only about 20% of the student body. So why not use affirmative action to promote diversity there? Diversity and equality are desired in our society, but the glaring double-standard shows where progressive policies promote problems. In the U.S. Supreme Court’s 1896 decision in Plessy v. Ferguson, segregated facilities for blacks and whites were overwhelmingly deemed constitutional as long as they were equal. It took 1954’s Brown v. Board of Education decision to determine that “separate, but equal” was “inherently unequal” because a segregated education “generates a feeling of inferiority.” Ending segregation was a good thing, but the Pandora’s Box of reforms such as President Kennedy’s executive order that led to affirmative action and the forced busing laws passed to enforce Brown created mixed results. Born of moral intentions, these remedies were never properly scrutinized for their immoral results. Busing ultimately—and unfortunately—left too many school districts more segregated than ever. “White flight” saw large numbers of white families de facto segregating their children to private schools and suburban neighborhoods. Affirmative action and its tentacles—quotas, minority-based points systems, group-based preferences, loosened testing and admissions standards—are an affront to our most sacred democratic principle: that all men are equal in the eyes of the law. For too long, our laws and court rulings have contorted this value. And the belief that career opportunities and educational successes should be the reward of individuals’ merit and unwavering work ethic has eroded over time. Tragically—for blacks, women and other “oppressed” minorities— affirmative action indirectly communicates a demoralizing message of inferiority that reinforces the same separatism it set out to solve. It is pure illogic to think that you can fight fire with fire and get anything but scorched earth. Reverse discrimination simply cannot cure discrimination.Today, two mutually exclusive Americas exist. We are either an affirmative action America, where some among us are held to a lower standard based on skin color or we are all equal under the law, free to fail or succeed no matter what group we happen to be born into. Both cannot be true.Be it basketball or big business, allowing the best to advance is the true moral path.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Jun 19, 2011 8:45:06 GMT -5
This is another one of those arguments that is basically over. We're just waiting for the policy and politics to catch up.
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Post by privateinvestor on Jun 19, 2011 8:47:29 GMT -5
Affirmative action. What say you?
We have Affirmative Action in the military and it had some successes and some failures.. Minorities and women were promoted over others and did very well in their new slots but some were promoted above their level of competence, education, and experience and it was an issue..
But during the early years of Affirmative Action in the Military I would say overall it was a success and rectified some old habits or practices in the Military....one man's opinion but I was there when AF was first tried in the military and the Pentagon..
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Bluerobin
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Post by Bluerobin on Jun 19, 2011 8:50:49 GMT -5
Afirmative Action, like veterans' prefrences, insure the most qualified person does NOT get the job, etc. Let everyone succeed or fail on their own merits.
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Post by privateinvestor on Jun 19, 2011 8:54:00 GMT -5
Affirmative Action, like veterans' preferences, insure the most qualified person does NOT get the job, etc. Let everyone succeed or fail on their own merits. How does Affirmative Action and Veterans Preferences relate?? I am missing your point again ..are you talking about Quotas or Special Privileges??
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Bluerobin
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Post by Bluerobin on Jun 19, 2011 8:55:48 GMT -5
PI, putting certain groups ahead of the others. You get extra credit because you are a member of a group, not because you earned it.
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Post by privateinvestor on Jun 19, 2011 8:57:36 GMT -5
PI, putting certain groups ahead of the others. You get extra credit because you are a member of a group, not because you earned it. Don't you think Veterans especially those who served in Harm's Way earned their privileges??
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Bluerobin
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Post by Bluerobin on Jun 19, 2011 9:01:02 GMT -5
No. Veterans are not better qualified for a job, just because they were human targets. Unless their service experience gave them some specific skills needed for a specific job, they should be treated like every other candidate.
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Post by privateinvestor on Jun 19, 2011 9:04:57 GMT -5
No. Veterans are not better qualified for a job, just because they were human targets. Unless their service experience gave them some specific skills needed for a specific job, they should be treated like every other candidate. Ok I have been down this road before with the anti-military crowd so I will just have to agree to disagree, I guess. But in my case the small priviledges I have received as a Veteran were well earned...and were promised in the fine print when I signed the contract with the US Military to serve in the military..
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Jun 19, 2011 9:09:41 GMT -5
PI, putting certain groups ahead of the others. You get extra credit because you are a member of a group, not because you earned it. Don't you think Veterans especially those who served in Harm's Way earned their privileges?? Perhaps, but in so doing they gave up the career advancement in the private sector. I'm fine with there being some quid pro quo for that. But what the hell did you do if you were born with a smidge more melanin and/or different parts?
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Bluerobin
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Post by Bluerobin on Jun 19, 2011 9:10:12 GMT -5
PI, you are not a better worker, just because of the military. Only the best qualified should get any job. If you score a 75 on a test and get a 15 point preference, you are not better qualified than someone who scores an 89 or 90. Why should you have an unfair advantage? I am not anti military, just anti veterans preference and any other kind of preference or quota. All they do is insure incompetence, by hiring less competent folks.
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Post by privateinvestor on Jun 19, 2011 9:11:29 GMT -5
PI, you are not a better worker, just because of the military. Only the best qualified should get any job. If you score a 75 on a test and get a 15 point preference, you are not better qualified than someone who scores an 89 or 90. Why should you have an unfair advantage? I am not anti military, just anti veterans preference and any other kind of preference or quota. All they do is insure incompetence, by hiring less competent folks. Ok but again we will have to agree to disagree.. But I can see where you are coming from since Veterans do get extra points for government jobs/promotion and there are probably cases where they were employed/and or promoted ahead of someone more qualified.. But I was thinking about Medical Preferences at the VA Hospital given to those who were wounded either physically or mentally..ie PTSD.. I think they earned those preferences..
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AGB
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Post by AGB on Jun 19, 2011 9:16:21 GMT -5
PI, you are not a better worker, just because of the military. Only the best qualified should get any job. If you score a 75 on a test and get a 15 point preference, you are not better qualified than someone who scores an 89 or 90. Why should you have an unfair advantage? I am not anti military, just anti veterans preference and any other kind of preference or quota. All they do is insure incompetence, by hiring less competent folks. "Why Preference is Given Since the time of the Civil War, veterans of the Armed Forces have been given some degree of preference in appointments to Federal jobs. Recognizing their sacrifice, Congress enacted laws to prevent veterans seeking Federal employment from being penalized for their time in military service. Veterans' preference recognizes the economic loss suffered by citizens who have served their country in uniform, restores veterans to a favorable competitive position for Government employment, and acknowledges the larger obligation owed to disabled veterans." www.opm.gov/staffingPortal/Vetguide.asp#2Why
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Post by privateinvestor on Jun 19, 2011 9:19:14 GMT -5
PI, you are not a better worker, just because of the military. Only the best qualified should get any job. If you score a 75 on a test and get a 15 point preference, you are not better qualified than someone who scores an 89 or 90. Why should you have an unfair advantage? I am not anti military, just anti veterans preference and any other kind of preference or quota. All they do is insure incompetence, by hiring less competent folks. "Why Preference is Given Since the time of the Civil War, veterans of the Armed Forces have been given some degree of preference in appointments to Federal jobs. Recognizing their sacrifice, Congress enacted laws to prevent veterans seeking Federal employment from being penalized for their time in military service. Veterans' preference recognizes the economic loss suffered by citizens who have served their country in uniform, restores veterans to a favorable competitive position for Government employment, and acknowledges the larger obligation owed to disabled veterans." www.opm.gov/staffingPortal/Vetguide.asp#2Why Thanx for that and what I was referring to about the contract we signed at our initial enlistment or re enlistment with the US Government..
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cme1201
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Post by cme1201 on Jun 19, 2011 9:24:26 GMT -5
restores veterans to a favorable competitive position for Government employment
I am a veteran, in governmental jobs vet's have preference, if we reduce the size of government, we reduce the size of job preference for veterans. Win-Win in both departments.
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Post by privateinvestor on Jun 19, 2011 9:30:31 GMT -5
restores veterans to a favorable competitive position for Government employmentI am a veteran, in governmental jobs vet's have preference, if we reduce the size of government, we reduce the size of job preference for veterans. Win-Win in both departments. I took the Post Office Test when I was a student at BC and because I was a Veteran and in the Active Reserves I got 20pts added to my score which didn't go over too well with others who took the same test and were not veterans...they cried about being miss treated and the PO told them that those were the guidelines established by the Government and they had to go with them...but again I understand this issue and think it is fair or it would have been changed by the Liberals in congress IMHO
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Bluerobin
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Post by Bluerobin on Jun 19, 2011 9:31:44 GMT -5
Maybe the number of unqualified folks working for the govt is why most believe the govt is inept.
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Post by privateinvestor on Jun 19, 2011 9:33:53 GMT -5
Maybe the number of unqualified folks working for the govt is why most believe the govt is inept. I know a lot of government workers who do a dam good job, are dedicated, and don't get much money compared to the private sector jobs..
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AGB
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Post by AGB on Jun 19, 2011 9:36:01 GMT -5
Unlike skin color, veterans' preference is an advantage just about anyone can obtain. You cannot cry about the benefits earned by vets when you could have done the same thing to earn those benefits.
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Bluerobin
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Post by Bluerobin on Jun 19, 2011 9:36:28 GMT -5
Private sector jobs don't pay anywhere as much as govt workers think they do.
I know a number of govt workers that could not hold a private sector job, due to their ineptness.
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dancinmama
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Post by dancinmama on Jun 19, 2011 9:37:53 GMT -5
I believe that affirmative action also harmed good minority candidates for positions. My mom has said over and over again that she rarely hired minorities because she knew that, if they did not perform well, it would be hell to get rid of them. She was the head of the Contracts and Grants department at a major university. I myself was a victim of affirmative action or reverse discrimination as we used to call it. I graduated from college and wanted to do social work; my skin was the wrong color and I could not get a job in the field. I guess it ended up being a good thing because I went to work for an aerospace company on the space shuttle program and ended up making a whole lot more money as an engineering planner and loved the work.
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dancinmama
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Post by dancinmama on Jun 19, 2011 9:40:58 GMT -5
Private sector jobs don't pay anywhere as much as govt workers think they do. I know a number of govt workers that could not hold a private sector job, due to their ineptness. Not only that, but the pensions of government workers are absolutely ridiculous. My DH who has put in over 31 years in the private sector and is an "executive" will get a smaller annual pension that my BFF from high school who is a clerk with a city municipality and has less years of service.
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Post by privateinvestor on Jun 19, 2011 9:44:24 GMT -5
[I know a number of govt workers that could not hold a private sector job, due to their ineptness. [/quote]
Not only that, but the pensions of government workers are absolutely ridiculous. My DH who has put in over 31 years in the private sector and is an "executive" will get a smaller annual pension that my BFF from high school who is a clerk with a city municipality and has less years of service.[/quote][/color]
Ok but have you checked out salaries and pensions for some in the Private Sector that are ridiculous??
I don't think the military pensions are that out of line with the private sector and probably much lower on a case by case basis
The average montly pension for enlisted with 20 years of service is @$1800.00 per month.. with those who retired 20+ years ago getting less because their base pay was much lower.
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Bluerobin
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Post by Bluerobin on Jun 19, 2011 9:55:40 GMT -5
Military pensions are the low end of govt pensions. However $1,800 is more than many private sector jobs.
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Post by privateinvestor on Jun 19, 2011 10:02:38 GMT -5
Military pensions are the low end of govt pensions. However $1,800 is more than many private sector jobs. $1800.00 per month is an average for 20 years or service and I doubt that amount is more than many private sector jobs.. $21,600.00 per year is not a lot of money if you live out here on the left coast...it covers gas and auto insurance payments/ maintenance with enough left over for a few dinners...not exactly extravagant living IMHO
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Bluerobin
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Post by Bluerobin on Jun 19, 2011 10:06:37 GMT -5
PI, I am older and can judge by what my friends, wife and I are getting and they had more than 20.. Unless they were in govt, they don't get a lot. Many private companies have dropped pensions.
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