Affirmative action. What say you?

[ugonow]

$1800.00 per month is an average for 20 years or service and I doubt that amount is more than many private sector jobs..

Most private sector jobs have droped their pension plans in favor of 401's. And 1800 per month is pretty darn good for 20 yrs service.

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

Jun 19, 2011 9:55:40 GMT -5 Bluerobin said:

Military pensions are the low end of govt pensions. However $1,800 is more than many private sector jobs.

That is true. Not only that (I was in the NAVY Submarine Service), but if you're not stupid- it's a LOT more than $1,800.

HOUSING: You can live on base, aboard ship, or if you're deployed- you've basically got housing covered.

CLOTHING: You have uniforms issued to you- if you take care of them you have MAYBE $200 to $500 a YEAR in expenses for clothing.

FOOD: You can ALWAYS eat on base, aboard ship- or if you're deployed- obviously you can eat.

If you're actually in harms way, or you are a diver, submariner, spec ops, and probably a handful of other jobs you get "hazardous duty pay" added to your pay year-round.

You have full health benefits, a life insurance policy that cost you pennies, dental, vision, etc.

Now, if you're stupid and you blow your whole check on booze, and you marry the first Grotopotomus you see in Groton, CT and you have three kids in three years- you're f***ed. But you did it to yourself, and you're a lot less f***ed than your stupid a** would be out in the civilian world.

Sorry, but soldiers, sailors, and airmen are actually HUMAN and the ones who do poorly are those who would have done poorly in life anyway. They make it stupid easy for a discplined person to do extremely well- and I personally think it's unbecoming of a member of our armed forces to whine.

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

Still-- all of that being said, I'm for at least giving them preferential treatment in the private sector.

[jkapp]

Many argue that preferential treatment from Affirmative Action is justifiable to make up for past discrimination imposed on minorities and women...that it is a form of compensation for their past exclusion from academics and the workplace. However, IMO that preferential hiring as compensation is wrong in that it benefits individuals (minorities and women possessing good educational credentials) least likely harmed by past wrongings while it burdens individuals (younger white male applicants) least likely to be responsible for past wrongs.

Basically, they are punishing current non-minorities (if even "minority" qualifies as a definition for the makeup of America these days) for the wrongdoings of past non-minorities. So, I guess to those in favor of Affirmative Action, two wrongs DO make a right?

[dancinmama]

Jun 19, 2011 9:44:24 GMT -5 @privateinvestor said:

[I know a number of govt workers that could not hold a private sector job, due to their ineptness.

Not only that, but the pensions of government workers are absolutely ridiculous. My DH who has put in over 31 years in the private sector and is an "executive" will get a smaller annual pension that my BFF from high school who is a clerk with a city municipality and has less years of service.[/quote][/color]


Ok but have you checked out salaries and pensions for some in the Private Sector that are ridiculous??

I don't think the military pensions are that out of line with the private sector and probably much lower on a case by case basis

The average montly pension for enlisted with 20 years of service is @$1800.00 per month.. with those who retired 20+ years ago getting less because their base pay was much lower.[/quote]

Add to that $1800.00/mo. the value of tri-care for life and the retirement benefits for the military way outstrip anything that is received in the private sector.

My post was about a college educated "executive" (department manager) working for a Fortune 500 company with more years of service vs a non-college educated clerk working for a municipality with fewer years of service.

[dancinmama]

Jun 19, 2011 10:10:54 GMT -5 ugonow said:

$1800.00 per month is an average for 20 years or service and I doubt that amount is more than many private sector jobs..

Most private sector jobs have droped their pension plans in favor of 401's. And 1800 per month is pretty darn good for 20 yrs service.

That's correct. The company my DH works for dropped their pension plan for new hires in 2006. The next thing that is coming down the pike is to freeze pensions for all workers who were hired before 2006. In other words, they will get a pension, but it will be based on their length of service and salary at the time they are frozen - there will be no way to increase it. There is no rumor going around about it, but I can see the writing on the wall.

[marshabar1]

AA dumbs things down and is inherently unfair. But then according to that moron presidential contender Howard Dean, the future doesn't belong to White Christians over 55 so what do I know.

[dancinmama]

Jun 19, 2011 10:16:42 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

Jun 19, 2011 9:55:40 GMT -5 Bluerobin said:

Military pensions are the low end of govt pensions. However $1,800 is more than many private sector jobs.

That is true. Not only that (I was in the NAVY Submarine Service), but if you're not stupid- it's a LOT more than $1,800.

HOUSING: You can live on base, aboard ship, or if you're deployed- you've basically got housing covered.

CLOTHING: You have uniforms issued to you- if you take care of them you have MAYBE $200 to $500 a YEAR in expenses for clothing.

FOOD: You can ALWAYS eat on base, aboard ship- or if you're deployed- obviously you can eat.

If you're actually in harms way, or you are a diver, submariner, spec ops, and probably a handful of other jobs you get "hazardous duty pay" added to your pay year-round.

You have full health benefits, a life insurance policy that cost you pennies, dental, vision, etc.

Now, if you're stupid and you blow your whole check on booze, and you marry the first Grotopotomus you see in Groton, CT and you have three kids in three years- you're f***ed. But you did it to yourself, and you're a lot less f***ed than your stupid a** would be out in the civilian world.

Sorry, but soldiers, sailors, and airmen are actually HUMAN and the ones who do poorly are those who would have done poorly in life anyway. They make it stupid easy for a discplined person to do extremely well- and I personally think it's unbecoming of a member of our armed forces to whine.

This is also true. My DFIL (deceased) retired from the air force and lived quite well on his pension for almost 30 years - nice home on a golf course, country club membership, etc. He was drafted in WWII, never was college educated, but eventually became a test pilot so he too received hazard pay.

[verrip1]

Affirmative action is for wimps.

Reparations. That's what I'm talkin' about!

[Bluerobin]

Reparations my foot. If you don't like it here, you get a one way plane ticket back to where you came from.

[verrip1]

Shreveport?

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

Jun 19, 2011 10:44:25 GMT -5 jkapp said:

Many argue that preferential treatment from Affirmative Action is justifiable to make up for past discrimination imposed on minorities and women...that it is a form of compensation for their past exclusion from academics and the workplace. However, IMO that preferential hiring as compensation is wrong in that it benefits individuals (minorities and women possessing good educational credentials) least likely harmed by past wrongings while it burdens individuals (younger white male applicants) least likely to be responsible for past wrongs.

Basically, they are punishing current non-minorities (if even "minority" qualifies as a definition for the makeup of America these days) for the wrongdoings of past non-minorities. So, I guess to those in favor of Affirmative Action, two wrongs DO make a right?

We fought a war to free our own slaves- over 500,000 died in that war. We then made reparations after the war. What? Oh, yes. Unless slaves and decendents of slaves would have preferred we "set them free" rather than make them citizens. Later we gave decendants of slaves full citizenship, and voting rights.

In fact, an argument could be-- and has been made that the best thing that could have ever happened to the decendents of slaves is that they are decendants of slaves in the United States.

Would they prefer the Congo? Nigeria? Pick your African hell hole- nothing there compares to citizenship here.

GET OVER IT.

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

The vast majority of what plagues the African American community today is self-imposed, imposed by bad policy, and the race baiters and poverty pimps do the rest.

GET OVER IT.

We need to get to the point where there is no "US and THEM" in America.

[privateinvestor]

I am not so sure that Affirmative Action is such a good thing with unemployment hovering @9% and much higher out in CA..

And the @$1800.00 per month average pension is well deserved and many don't receive that amount but hope to with the COLA increase over the next few years. Also included in the those 20 years are deployments that meant considerable time away from home and family.. This has contributed to the high divorce rate during my time on active duty and not sure what it is now...Also among military retirees suicide and drug abuse takes it toll and this is something that I know a little about,,

I am rather surprised there are a few who would NOT even thank someone for 20 years of service in the military and then take exception to them getting a very meager pension for their 20 years... Times they are a changing I guess...

Oh well at least I didn't see any negative comments aimed at the Marines but it is still early in the day for that, I guess??

[NoMoreLunacy]

I think race based Affirmative Action is wrong. I think income/wealth based Affirmative Action is super right. However, I would limit AA to providing help, and keep it out of selection for education or jobs. In other words, take money out of affluent school districts and pour it into the poor school districts (even if those are majority white). But don't keep a quota in colleges for the poor. Same goes for jobs.

[NoMoreLunacy]

Jun 19, 2011 12:13:23 GMT -5 Bluerobin said:

Reparations my foot. If you don't like it here, you get a one way plane ticket back to where you came from.

This is precisely what I tell to Caucasian conservatives. Don't like it here? Go back to Europe.

[privateinvestor]

This is precisely what I tell to Caucasian conservatives. Don't like it here? Go back to Europe.

Comments like this and your others have me thinking about taking another unpaid vacation from this board for a few weeks..

You have high jacked the dicussions here with a lot of weirdness and just hope it is not contagious or spreading around tooooooo much

Bye & Good Luck,

P.I.

[NoMoreLunacy]

Jun 19, 2011 13:46:17 GMT -5 @privateinvestor said:

This is precisely what I tell to Caucasian conservatives. Don't like it here? Go back to Europe.

Comments like this and your others have me thinking about taking another unpaid vacation from this board for a few weeks..

You have high jacked the dicussions here with a lot of weirdness and just hope it is not contagious or spreading around tooooooo much

Bye & Good Luck,

P.I.

Ah, so it is fine when African Americans are told to go back, but it is sacrilege when Caucasian Americans are told the same. Makes sense.

[hannah27]

I think that Affirmative Action laws and guidelines were necessary at one time to correct systemic inequalities and bigotry. On the one hand it gave minorities a shot at jobs that they were qualified but may not have gotten otherwise because some people who make hiring decisions are bigots. On the other hand, some minorities got jobs they were not qualified for, at the expense of non-minorities who WERE qualified. I have seen both scenarios play out during my working career.

Unfortunately, there are still too many bigots out there who will base hiring decisions on ethnicity and/or race. The real solution is to get rid of the bigots, who are thankfully in the minority - but they're too firmly entrenched in high-level positions. We may have to wait till they retire before we see the younger, less bigoted, and more diverse cohorts take charge.

[NoMoreLunacy]

AA is not the same as anti-discrimination laws. I am totally in favor of anti-discrimination laws, and not just based on race. Gender, sexual orientation, religion (poor Herman Cain!), age, everything.

[fairlycrazy23]

Affirmative action is racist and unconstitutional. If you have two applicants with identical credentials and preference is given to the minority applicant, that is unconstitutional since the preference is based on race.