billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jun 18, 2011 21:33:23 GMT -5
I don't like the textbooks used in our school district. There's a lot of "implied learning", rather than memorizing facts & repeating them. Implied learning works for kids that are at the top of the class, but for any child that struggles with reading comprehension, those kids fall behind. I've brought that up at school meetings, but the excuse is always the books are selected by people with PhD's, not the teachers that actually work directly with the students. How dumb are they, when too many kids are falling behind?! And memorizing facts and barfing them back out on a test doesn't work for those at the top of the class nor for a work world that asks people to be able to actually think.
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NoMoreLunacy
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Post by NoMoreLunacy on Jun 18, 2011 21:36:02 GMT -5
I don't like the textbooks used in our school district. There's a lot of "implied learning", rather than memorizing facts & repeating them. Implied learning works for kids that are at the top of the class, but for any child that struggles with reading comprehension, those kids fall behind. I've brought that up at school meetings, but the excuse is always the books are selected by people with PhD's, not the teachers that actually work directly with the students. How dumb are they, when too many kids are falling behind?! Are you kidding me? You want to make the curriculum even lower level? This is precisely the problem with the US education system. Any time any kid fails the standard has to be brought down to make that kid pass. Let the kid fail! Then hopefully the parents will become more involved with the kid's education and bring up his/her performance. Don't pull down the rest just so everyone can graduate. If graduation is the goal, give the graduation certificate straight up, without any exams or whatever. But don't compromise on the standards. What will happen when these kids go to college?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 18, 2011 21:37:22 GMT -5
Memorization is great... as long as someone else is around to tell you how/when to apply the facts...
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NoMoreLunacy
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Post by NoMoreLunacy on Jun 18, 2011 21:41:41 GMT -5
Well, my experience with the US public education system is that it neither teaches to think nor teaches to memorize. I am talking solely mathematics here as that's my main area of strength.
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Post by BeenThere...DoneThat... on Jun 18, 2011 21:42:10 GMT -5
Do you also support the Singapore system that determines the track that a student will take at the age of 12. Your academic ability determined at 12 and your life as a manual laborer could be determined before you are a teen. Maybe that's the biggest problem with the American system? We spend too much per pupil that clearly will not provide a return on investment. Maybe putting them in the vo-tech route and giving them useful experience in trade in their early teens would be much better than spending needless thousands on those unable to perform? There you go again trying to cut costs. Look, can you please stop your knee jerk reaction for one minute and try to focus on what I am saying? Leave the current curriculum alone, but rename it to normal. Then add two more tracks, for the high performers. This will cost MORE, not less than the current cost. But it will also let the bright kids shine. Otherwise everyone is taught to the lowest common standard and the nation as a whole remains undereducated. ...thinking...
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Post by BeenThere...DoneThat... on Jun 18, 2011 21:43:13 GMT -5
I don't like the textbooks used in our school district. There's a lot of "implied learning", rather than memorizing facts & repeating them. Implied learning works for kids that are at the top of the class, but for any child that struggles with reading comprehension, those kids fall behind. I've brought that up at school meetings, but the excuse is always the books are selected by people with PhD's, not the teachers that actually work directly with the students. How dumb are they, when too many kids are falling behind?! Are you kidding me? You want to make the curriculum even lower level? This is precisely the problem with the US education system. Any time any kid fails the standard has to be brought down to make that kid pass. Let the kid fail! Then hopefully the parents will become more involved with the kid's education and bring up his/her performance. Don't pull down the rest just so everyone can graduate. If graduation is the goal, give the graduation certificate straight up, without any exams or whatever. But don't compromise on the standards. What will happen when these kids go to college? ...thinking...
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Post by Deleted on Jun 18, 2011 21:49:29 GMT -5
Sorry... i might have fogotten my sarcasm face. I'm not for memorization, except in the last stages, when it speeds up calculation... but even then, we have really good machines... they can easily handle fact and formula... if the person operating them knows how/why to apply, synthesize, evaluate and instruct the machine in its task... Glad you are thinking Been... think you might be done any time soon? ...
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Post by BeenThere...DoneThat... on Jun 18, 2011 21:52:01 GMT -5
Sorry... i might have fogotten my sarcasm face. I'm not for memorization, except in the last stages, when it speeds up calculation... but even then, we have really good machines... they can easily handle fact and formula... if the person operating them knows how/why to apply, synthesize, evaluate and instruct the machine in its task... Glad you are thinking Been... think you might be done any time soon? ... ...oh, heaven forbid... if I stop thinking about stuff, then where's the fun in that?
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NoMoreLunacy
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Post by NoMoreLunacy on Jun 18, 2011 21:53:13 GMT -5
Sorry... i might have fogotten my sarcasm face. I'm not for memorization, except in the last stages, when it speeds up calculation... but even then, we have really good machines... they can easily handle fact and formula... if the person operating them knows how/why to apply, synthesize, evaluate and instruct the machine in its task... Glad you are thinking Been... think you might be done any time soon? ... On this, we will have to agree to disagree. What I have found in my own life is this - the more I do repeated exercises the better I get. If I practice 1000 forehands and 1000 backhands every day, my game gets really, really sharp. It doesn't improve my strategy, it just improves my technique. What I am doing here is rote learning to train muscle memory. Similarly, when I was in university, it was very important to learn how to think creatively, but it was equally important to know every single basics in the subject. Both are needed. When I am in the boardroom and have to make a decision on whether to invest or not, I don't always have the luxury to build a complete spreadsheet. The team of course has built one, but I have to provide my judgment on whether it is sound investment in a matter of minutes. I cannot depend on a machine here.
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NoMoreLunacy
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Post by NoMoreLunacy on Jun 18, 2011 21:54:53 GMT -5
Sorry... i might have fogotten my sarcasm face. I'm not for memorization, except in the last stages, when it speeds up calculation... but even then, we have really good machines... they can easily handle fact and formula... if the person operating them knows how/why to apply, synthesize, evaluate and instruct the machine in its task... Glad you are thinking Been... think you might be done any time soon? ... ...oh, heaven forbid... if I stop thinking about stuff, then where's the fun in that? Thinking is good, especially for conservatives. They don't do it often.
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Post by BeenThere...DoneThat... on Jun 18, 2011 21:58:41 GMT -5
...oh, heaven forbid... if I stop thinking about stuff, then where's the fun in that? Thinking is good, especially for conservatives. They don't do it often.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 18, 2011 22:03:11 GMT -5
I would like to know where you work if possible nomore... i'd like to avoid any place that makes snap investment decisions in the boardroom without proper background information and analysis... thanks...
I also never said i was against all memorizing. I said i was not a proponent of it as a teaching tool, specifically when one is learning concepts. I don't believe you learn 'the multiplication table'.... I think you learn how to combine in groups.... eventually, you might memorize, because it eases use, or as you use the knowledged repeatedly... but it is not the method i would endorse for LEARNING the material... (memorizing it is not the same as learning/understanding it...)
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jun 18, 2011 22:10:28 GMT -5
Well, my experience with the US public education system is that it neither teaches to think nor teaches to memorize. I am talking solely mathematics here as that's my main area of strength. The problem with the teaching of mathmatics in this country is that it is okay to not be good at math. I heard a comedian talking about how she frequently sees a table of people at the end of the evening talking and laughing about how they don't know how to do the math to divide up the check. She says she never hears them at the start of the meal laughing that they can't read the menu. Until learning math is cool in the larger society, schools will get no where attempting to teach it.
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NoMoreLunacy
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Post by NoMoreLunacy on Jun 18, 2011 22:14:18 GMT -5
Well, my experience with the US public education system is that it neither teaches to think nor teaches to memorize. I am talking solely mathematics here as that's my main area of strength. The problem with the teaching of mathmatics in this country is that it is okay to not be good at math. I heard a comedian talking about how she frequently sees a table of people at the end of the evening talking and laughing about how they don't know how to do the math to divide up the check. She says she never hears them at the start of the meal laughing that they can't read the menu. Until learning math is cool in the larger society, schools will get no where attempting to teach it. I disagree. What I have experienced is a reluctance on part of the teachers to push harder math to the kids. Consider this - first make the math curriculum consistent with international standards, then fail kids and keep them back if they can't master it. Pretty soon the problem will self solve.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 18, 2011 22:15:23 GMT -5
Broken record here, but NOT everone will master it... can't just keep them all back indefinately...
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NoMoreLunacy
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Post by NoMoreLunacy on Jun 18, 2011 22:18:07 GMT -5
I would like to know where you work if possible nomore... i'd like to avoid any place that makes snap investment decisions in the boardroom without proper background information and analysis... thanks... I also never said i was against all memorizing. I said i was not a proponent of it as a teaching tool, specifically when one is learning concepts. I don't believe you learn 'the multiplication table'.... I think you learn how to combine in groups.... eventually, you might memorize, because it eases use, or as you use the knowledged repeatedly... but it is not the method i would endorse for LEARNING the material... (memorizing it is not the same as learning/understanding it...) Perhaps I didn't say it right. In fact, I am sure that I didn't say it right. Say you are the CEO. A team gets time with you for your approval or disapproval of an investment. The team has worked on the idea for months. They have reams of data and analysis. They show you the key pieces of the data, and you have to make the call. You cannot do all the analysis again, as then the whole company would come to a halt. So what do you do? You depend on your experience, and your knowledge of similar situations (which, hopefully, as a good CEO you have meticulously gathered and committed to memory). It is like a General in the battlefield deciding what to do in the middle of a battle. There is no time for machines - you have to train yourself and hard so that your instincts are more right than wrong, and that comes to practicing the same scenario over, and over, and over ... how do you think top athletes make the best shots so effortlessly? They practice. Same applies to kids when it comes to math in grade school.
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NoMoreLunacy
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Post by NoMoreLunacy on Jun 18, 2011 22:18:52 GMT -5
Broken record here, but NOT everone will master it... can't just keep them all back indefinately... Then they don't deserve to graduate from school, won't you say?
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jun 18, 2011 22:20:51 GMT -5
The problem with the teaching of mathmatics in this country is that it is okay to not be good at math. I heard a comedian talking about how she frequently sees a table of people at the end of the evening talking and laughing about how they don't know how to do the math to divide up the check. She says she never hears them at the start of the meal laughing that they can't read the menu. Until learning math is cool in the larger society, schools will get no where attempting to teach it. I disagree. What I have experienced is a reluctance on part of the teachers to push harder math to the kids. Consider this - first make the math curriculum consistent with international standards, then fail kids and keep them back if they can't master it. Pretty soon the problem will self solve. The teachers are just as much a part of the larger societal problem of it being okay to be illiterate in math. "Make the math curriculum consistent with international standards" and you won't find an adequate number of individuals to teach it.
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formerexpat
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Post by formerexpat on Jun 18, 2011 22:22:45 GMT -5
So on another thread, you'll make an argument how it's bad that the US spends so much more than other countries on healthcare and state that this is a bad thing but when it comes to education and how much more we spend than other nations, it's okay?
Clearly, determining that 60% of the students are not college worthy and putting them on a track for a life that does not include college would be less expensive than throwing good money after bad on these students; even after increasing the standards and availability of gifted programs for the stars.
Throwing money at a problem, despite your own personal methods with your son and his education, isn't the solution. Involvement by parents is required in most cases.
BTW, I never stated that I would decrease spending on education. I said the spending per actual pupil might be off. If we've got an even distribution of $10k per student and we can determine that 50% of them are not college worthy and find a way to educate them for their trade for $7k then we've got an additional $3k per student to spend on the more gifted students.
Talk about knee jerk reactions and absence of focus on what a poster is saying.
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NoMoreLunacy
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Post by NoMoreLunacy on Jun 18, 2011 22:24:07 GMT -5
An example. I was playing with my squash coach today. (My son has the same coach.) The coach used to be top-10 in the world a few years back. He worked me so hard on repeating the same stroke over and over again that at the end of an hour I was ready to literally puke. But he kept pushing me, again and again. When we ended the session, he told me stories of two past world champions that he had played and trained with. He said that while I am dead after an hour, these guys will do it 8 hours a day. Once they were done, then their coach will start the lesson for another 2 hours. Why is that? It is to commit the shots to muscle memory so that in the heat of the moment when there is hardly any time to think the practice takes over. I think soldiers do the same.
My son goes to a Russian Math School. He is training for the Math Olympiads. He is national top 10 now in his age group, but that is not good enough. In the last American Math Championship exam he had to solve 25 hard problems in 40 minutes, no calculator. The school however had prepared him for this already by putting him through the same drill over and over again. This is not just memorizing. This is training your brain to think in a certain way so that there is no effort needed and you can solve problems lightening fast.
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NoMoreLunacy
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Post by NoMoreLunacy on Jun 18, 2011 22:25:18 GMT -5
The teachers are just as much a part of the larger societal problem of it being okay to be illiterate in math. "Make the math curriculum consistent with international standards" and you won't find an adequate number of individuals to teach it.
Again, I disagree. the US curriculum is just 3-4 grade levels behind. We do have math teachers that teach high school. But I do agree that teachers are part of the societal problem.
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NoMoreLunacy
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Post by NoMoreLunacy on Jun 18, 2011 22:27:50 GMT -5
So on another thread, you'll make an argument how it's bad that the US spends so much more than other countries on healthcare and state that this is a bad thing but when it comes to education and how much more we spend than other nations, it's okay? Clearly, determining that 60% of the students are not college worthy and putting them on a track for a life that does not include college would be less expensive than throwing good money after bad on these students; even after increasing the standards and availability of gifted programs for the stars. Throwing money at a problem, despite your own personal methods with your son and his education, isn't the solution. Involvement by parents is required in most cases. BTW, I never stated that I would decrease spending on education. I said the spending per actual pupil might be off. If we've got an even distribution of $10k per student and we can determine that 50% of them are not college worthy and find a way to educate them for their trade for $7k then we've got an additional $3k per student to spend on the more gifted students. Talk about knee jerk reactions and absence of focus on what a poster is saying. I really don't care how much US healthcare costs as long as it is available to everyone and is world class. I would raise taxes on the rich to pay for it. So I don't get your analogy. I know how much my son's private school costs, and I am in total disagreement that US public schools now pay too much to educate each kid. They are underfunded. However, I wouldn't just increase the funding, I would also change the curriculum and the tests with it.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jun 18, 2011 22:28:14 GMT -5
The teachers are just as much a part of the larger societal problem of it being okay to be illiterate in math. "Make the math curriculum consistent with international standards" and you won't find an adequate number of individuals to teach it. Again, I disagree. the US curriculum is just 3-4 grade levels behind. We do have math teachers that teach high school. But I do agree that teachers are part of the societal problem. By the time kids get to high school, many are at a remedial level.
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Post by BeenThere...DoneThat... on Jun 18, 2011 22:28:47 GMT -5
I disagree. What I have experienced is a reluctance on part of the teachers to push harder math to the kids. Consider this - first make the math curriculum consistent with international standards, then fail kids and keep them back if they can't master it. Pretty soon the problem will self solve. The teachers are just as much a part of the larger societal problem of it being okay to be illiterate in math. "Make the math curriculum consistent with international standards" and you won't find an adequate number of individuals to teach it. ...at the risk of sounding like I'm supporting NoMore's position, this reminds me of the "Good Will Hunting" movie quote about dropping 100 grand on an education that you could've had with a buck fifty in late charges at the public library... insofar as there are plenty of subjects where one could self-teach...
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jun 18, 2011 22:30:31 GMT -5
The teachers are just as much a part of the larger societal problem of it being okay to be illiterate in math. "Make the math curriculum consistent with international standards" and you won't find an adequate number of individuals to teach it. ...at the risk of sounding like I'm supporting NoMore's position, this reminds me of the "Good Will Hunting" movie quote about dropping 100 grand on an education that you could've had with a buck fifty in late charges at the public library... insofar as there are plenty of subjects where one could self-teach... Did you read the part that society has no expectation that people be any good at math? If it isn't cool to know math, why self learn it?
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Post by BeenThere...DoneThat... on Jun 18, 2011 22:34:15 GMT -5
...at the risk of sounding like I'm supporting NoMore's position, this reminds me of the "Good Will Hunting" movie quote about dropping 100 grand on an education that you could've had with a buck fifty in late charges at the public library... insofar as there are plenty of subjects where one could self-teach... Did you read the part that society has no expectation that people be any good at math? If it isn't cool to know math, why self learn it? ...I read it... and I'm not sure I'm ready to agree with it... but yes, if kids don't think something's cool, they're less inclined to do it...
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NoMoreLunacy
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Post by NoMoreLunacy on Jun 18, 2011 22:35:06 GMT -5
By the time kids get to high school, many are at a remedial level.
I agree, so push everything down including quality of teachers. Let the AP teachers teach regular math classes, and keep shifting each group of teachers down till some are pushed out of kindergarten. AP math in the USA is a joke by the way.
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NoMoreLunacy
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Post by NoMoreLunacy on Jun 18, 2011 22:36:32 GMT -5
...at the risk of sounding like I'm supporting NoMore's position, this reminds me of the "Good Will Hunting" movie quote about dropping 100 grand on an education that you could've had with a buck fifty in late charges at the public library... insofar as there are plenty of subjects where one could self-teach...
I am a huge fan of self-teaching, but that has to come over and above regular classes. Kids - including colelge and university kids - learn as much from each other as from the teacher/professor.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jun 18, 2011 22:45:58 GMT -5
By the time kids get to high school, many are at a remedial level. I agree, so push everything down including quality of teachers. Let the AP teachers teach regular math classes, and keep shifting each group of teachers down till some are pushed out of kindergarten. ... Wow, there is no way to argue with that.
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NoMoreLunacy
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Post by NoMoreLunacy on Jun 18, 2011 22:48:54 GMT -5
By the time kids get to high school, many are at a remedial level. I agree, so push everything down including quality of teachers. Let the AP teachers teach regular math classes, and keep shifting each group of teachers down till some are pushed out of kindergarten. ... Wow, there is no way to argue with that. Come on dude, what did I say wrong? Respect your opinion so would like to get it.
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