Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 18, 2011 21:54:53 GMT -5
How can you educate all students, set a common standard for all students... and NOT promote mediocrity? ... medius, middle, ordinary...
Do you really think ALL students are capable of superiority? ...
Oh Wait... this is America... where everyone can be the country's next Idol or top model...
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 18, 2011 22:18:11 GMT -5
I would argue that our current education system doesn't promote mediocrity. What it promotes is "competency." It is the same standard for whether you are a mainstreamed special education student or an advanced student. Welcome to what No Child Left Behind created. All children must achieve.
When they first discussed "teacher competency," I was sort of appalled. I never wanted to be competent. I wanted to be excellent. I have always been a high achiever.
On the other hand, give teachers a break. When I have kids who won't qualify for a high school diploma in the same class with kids who should be in AP classes but chose not to because they already passed the test their junior year, I can only do so much. I tell the kids that they have to challenge themselves. Write a mediocre essay? You are hurting yourself. And I will consider it mediocre even though it's vastly superior to some other kids' (code for spec. ed kid's) essay and grade accordingly. Smart kids can't stand to hide their smarts, and I TRY to hold them to that standard although it is sometimes harder than it sounds.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Jun 20, 2011 12:47:45 GMT -5
Isn't the #1 factor of quality of school found to be parental attitude and involvement? If so, aren't they creating the inequity?
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Jun 20, 2011 13:07:56 GMT -5
Do it through your local PTA. That's what the one at our school does. Last year they raised enough to buy all the GATE (Gifted And Talented Education) classrooms smart boards. This year they were talking about getting the GATE classrooms laptops, so they wouldn't have to share the mobile computer library with the whole school. Some parents probably complain that they focus mostly on the GATE kids, but guess which parents tend to be more involved?
As a citizen I obviously want our public schools to improve overall and do the best possible job for our young people. As the father of two girls in our local public schools, I don't give a damn what happens in other schools or classrooms. I want my two children to get the best possible education, and if that meant taking money from special education funds to give gifted kids extras so be it. If my kids were delayed instead of gifted I'm sure I'd feel differently, that's part of the problem with public education. In the abstract we all agree that we need to improve education, when it comes to the specifics nobody agrees on what should actually be done.
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luckyme
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Post by luckyme on Jun 20, 2011 13:12:12 GMT -5
" Isn't the #1 factor of quality of school found to be parental attitude and involvement? "
I would never think this, not in a million years. School district, affluent, not far from us has the best of everything, new books, new schools, electives, all the extras.
Our school district, which use to be fairly good when my youngest was in elementary, is going down the drain supper fast. With all the time, energy, and $$ going towards paychecks, (teachers are very well paid for such a low income area), ESL, special needs, influx of parochial kids; they sometimes don't even have books for the few subjects they do teach! Schools are falling apart, no heat in winter, courses are being dropped, etc. I would not want to have any young children starting out in the public school district today, at least not here.
I am just as involved as I ever was, one reason I chose to be a SAHP, but being involved means jack when coming up against the above changes.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Jun 20, 2011 13:20:57 GMT -5
Why not think, govt is not good at this ,let private business have a try? Because private business doesn't try to provide quality. It optimizes profit while providing the minimally acceptable product. Look at Walmart and McDonalds; crappy products, but they're cheap, and most importantly the shareholders are making money. You really want them in charge of your children's education?
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Jun 20, 2011 13:21:27 GMT -5
Have you seen parental involvement at this particular school waiver in the time that the school was good until now? You are only one parent. If there are 500 kids in the school, one parent's hours can't move the needle much. Parental involvment includes more than just PTA meetings and making copies - usually it means "parental involvement in the education process" - meaning, I might not ever set foot on campus, but I make sure my kids are doing their homework and learning, and making sure they understand school is important. When I get an email or note home about something that went wrong, we work with our kids to make sure they understand what is and isn't acceptable. My kids probably benefit more from me (or Dad) sitting with them every night while they do homework than they would over a new textbook, or a smartboard, or the program where they plant flowers, or whatever.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Jun 20, 2011 13:27:08 GMT -5
Private school exist, and there are good ones and bad ones of them too. There is nothing that says private business is not allowed to open schools.
Do Charter Schools exist everywhere, or is that a state by state thing? I got a piece of mail the other day explaining the situation of a school in our area. It has considered closing because there is a lack of enrollment. One thing they said was the main problem was many students were pulled from the school and put into a charter school. This school is near us, but pulls from some of the poorer neighborhoods. It includes several very large, but economical apartment complexes. The school has a terrible reputation. In the years since charter schools began, my kids' school has increased enrollment, but this one might close. So, why are people leaving this one school in droves, but not another? Because one school sucks so bad, as soon as people were given a chance to jump ship, they did. However, another school has such a good reputation, that people with money aren't leaving, even with the many, many choices they have.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Jun 20, 2011 13:27:24 GMT -5
My kids probably benefit more from me (or Dad) sitting with them every night while they do homework than they would over a new textbook, or a smartboard, or the program where they plant flowers, or whatever. Absolutely, but the point is if the school is too broke to buy textbooks or whatever, the parents can step in and do it through the PTA. If the school is already providing the minimum stuff, the PTA can provide extras that the school can't afford, like more computers, a new math program, or whatever. And there's no law saying you have to provide it equally to the entire student body. If the people showing up for and donating to the PTA are the parents of kids who are excelling in school they can choose to do things that benefit that population. They don't have to raise money to help ESL kids or whatever, like the school district has to.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Jun 20, 2011 13:35:20 GMT -5
I went to a public college, and I'm doing quite well.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Jun 20, 2011 13:41:36 GMT -5
College is a little different. It's a self selecting customer base. I could name hundreds of companies that exist only to provide luxury goods, and they do just fine, because they cater to a self selecting customer base that has the money to demand better quality minimally acceptable products.
Elementary, middle, and high school aren't optional. By law every kid has to be enrolled in "school" (yes, yes, I know you can home school). That means all the poor folks who don't have the money to demand better quality products would choose to purchase their children's education from whoever could come up with the educational equivalent of the dollar menu. You would still have great private primary schools, but you'd have FAR more cheap crappy private schools. The same way we have great restaurants, but they're vastly outnumbered by the McDonald's and Burger King on every corner.
We've had private schools in this country for over a century, but most kids go to public school right? Even in areas with really horrible public schools, they still have plenty of students. What does that tell you about the choices a huge segment of the population would make in a system with only private schools?
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jun 20, 2011 13:49:26 GMT -5
It tells me that their parents can either not afford private schools or do not care as long as their kid is out of the house 8 hours a day.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jun 20, 2011 13:58:17 GMT -5
Not at all. Even Carter, the great so-called "everyday" guy who said he was going to put his daughter in public school, took one look at them and "bailed' by saying security wasn't good enough. Bull crap, with the secret service there that school would have been safer than it had been in years but he didn't want his daughter exposed to a lower quality of education. The dregs of society lower the expectations of all concerned.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Jun 20, 2011 14:01:07 GMT -5
It tells me that the availability of public schools limit choice. Funny, it tells me that private business can't provide an education at a price point low enough for most consumers. If we got rid of public schools completely a huge chunk of the population might have no access to education at all because they can't afford even a cheap private school education. You might not like mcdonalds, but they get the job done. I have nothing against McDonalds, they're good at what they do, which is providing a pretty crappy product really quickly and at a low price. I don't want a group of shareholders applying that same principle to education is all. It wouldn't really effect me either way, since I'm sure as hell not sending my kids to McSchool. However, that doesn't mean I think it's a good idea.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Jun 20, 2011 14:18:34 GMT -5
But if you let private schools compete in a free market, I imagine they would be like mcdonalds. Good quality stuff that people can afford. LOL! You honestly feel that McDonalds is good quality stuff? Have you never eaten a real hamburger or something? Calling their food mediocre is being too generous. Anyone who can't make a better burger than McDonalds needs to go take some cooking classes STAT! What they are is cheap, convenient, and fast. That's literally the business model. The whole concept from design and layout of the kitchen to the ingredients and products on the menu is designed with the idea of limiting the time between when the customer places an order and when it's delivered. Even the people at McDonalds don't focus on quality. They aren't in that business. Which is fine, when you're in the business of selling hamburgers. I'm not sure it's such a good idea to focus on cheap, convenient, and quick when it comes to education though. I'm thinking maybe it's an area where quality should be the primary focus.
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Wisconsin Beth
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Post by Wisconsin Beth on Jun 20, 2011 14:23:55 GMT -5
I agree that private schools can't compete with public schools on price , but only because public school is free to the student. It is hard to beat free. But if you let private schools compete in a free market, I imagine they would be like mcdonalds. Good quality stuff that people can afford. Public schools are quite expensive, per student. Around here, starting price for private, religious education is about $4K. It's heavily subsidized by the congregation but that seems to be the running number for the parents to come up with.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Jun 20, 2011 14:37:22 GMT -5
The more the federal govt tweaks local schools the lower our rating compared toothier countries go. Only if you average all the numbers. Look at the studies that break the scores down by group and our public schools are still churning out kids that are some of the highest scoring in the world. Unlike some other countries though, we include the scores of special ed kids, ESL kids, etc. in our national scores which makes them appear low. How many private schools are there that cater to the children of migrant workers in CA, and what are their scores like? How about schools that cater to down syndrome kids, what do their scores look like? Blaming public schools for crappy scores when they have to include those kids in their averages seems pretty unfair to me.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jun 20, 2011 14:55:47 GMT -5
Karma for you DH.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Jun 20, 2011 15:32:31 GMT -5
And saying private schools would have a lot of problems and come short seems unfair if you excuse the fact that public schools have problems and come up short. By and large I don't think public schools do come up short. So they can't get downs syndrome kids to score well on a test... big frakin deal. I don't think anybody is going to get those kids to score well on an algebra test. They just aren't capable of doing it. We'll never see a dwarf play in the NBA either, does that mean our nations basketball coaches are failing us?
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