enhanced public education

[Colleenz]

Public school is required to provide a basic education for free. Many already charge fees for sports or other extracurriculars. Why not offer for fee enhanced academics?

If regular class sizes are 25 students, why not offer a 15 student class size for $XXXX?

If a teacher excels at teaching, why not let parents choose that teacher if they are willing to pay $XXXX to put their kid in his/her class?

This could let public schools compete directly with private and charter schools.

[Deleted]

Is this like enhanced interrogation?

[Deleted]

Colleen, there are so many flaws with what you propose that it is hard to know where to begin. Ideally, a public education isn't based on how much money parents have. I threw the "ideally" in there because we all know that isn't true. More affluent parents are already paying more for the education you describe through higher property taxes and "gifts" to the school. Most of the affluent school districts in my state have separate foundations that provide extras to the schools.

The bottom line is a school has to offer equal access to all the students it serves. Sports and other extracurriculars get around it through fundraising. A really talented athlete who couldn't pay the fees would have them paid for by the booster club. They also make certain that every member of the team gets a championship ring, if they win state, whether or not they can afford it.

As far as the "excellent" teacher's class, shouldn't he/she be assigned to the neediest students? Don't they need help the most? The more affluent could use that money to hire a tutor and really advance one-on-one.

[Colleenz]

shouldn't he/she be assigned to the neediest students?

I don't think so - they should ideally be assigned to the most gifted students. Our current system promotes mediocrity instead of fostering excellence.

[CarolinaKat]

What about the extremely bright students from the very poor families. Then they get shafted.

[Colleenz]

Agreed CarolinaKat - how do we get a booster club for them?

[luckyme]

I would be happy if we could get a "good" public education. It is going down hill so fast, I am glad we no longer have any elementary kids.

With NCLB, the influx of ESL students, the budget cuts, a US public education stinks.

Most of the Catholic schools have closed and the tution at the private school is crazy, $12K a year. Although, they have scholarships, they are currently trying to "diversify", so the best scholarships are going to minorities. We are not, and we couldn't afford the high tuition.

[ontrack]

I may get flamed for this, but personally, I don't think the public school system stinks for a lot of the population. I think the low-income kids with parents who don't care, ESL, and learning disabled test scores drive our averages down. That's one of the (many) problems with NCLB--it seems to expect teachers to get all kids to perform at grade level, which in some cases is imposible. Keep in mind my experience was being educated in public schools of upper-middle class suburbia.

[zibazinski]

But you both are right. My biggest fear is what is coming true. The public school will be filled with parents who don't care, who don't speak English, or have special needs. Or have no money to buy a better neighborhood/education for their children. One of my friends was educated in a small farm community and she says she got a better education then than her kids do now. What's the difference? Kids that don't speak English, kids from parents who don't care and cannot be disciplined, and special needs kids that suck up any and all resources leaving her regular ed kids to just take up space in a classroom.

[cubefarmer]

I do pay $$$ for class sizes of 10 and $$$ for brilliant teachers and I pay $$$ for security guards and $$$ for every kid to have a laptop and $$$ for freshly prepared organic lunches, etc - it's called private school.

I would not pay all this money and then be stuck in public school and all that goes with that - mandatory standardized testing, attendance requirements, teachers who don't care, the chaotic zoo like environment because public schools can't get rid of the badly behaved - and you know they would be in the "free" classrooms unlike the premium classrooms, but they would stll be in the hallways, the cafeterias, and in the courtyard waiting to kick your ass since they have nothing to lose.

[luckyme]

" I think the low-income kids with parents who don't care, ESL, and learning disabled test scores drive our averages down. "

Well, we live is a district that has always had high numbers of low income kids. My oldest is going to be a junior, my youngest just left elementary. I see a huge difference between the education my oldest received, compared to the youngest.

Maybe before NCLB, and the huge influx of ESL students, the school was better able to cope with socio-economic issues of the low income kids, IE, parents who didn't care.

[shanendoah]

I can't find the link to the original study that had much clearer information, but here's the poverty/test score correlation information from the most recent TIMSS testing that's published on the US Dept of Education site nces.ed.gov/programs/coe/analysis/2009-sb3.asp (this page only talks about TIMSS data, but the findings directly correspond with the PIRLS results as well)

Bascially, what is says is that public education is only failing the poorest of US students (those in schools where the poverty level is 75% or more). The kids in schools with a 50% poverty rate score higher than the world wide average. Those in schools with 25% or less poverty rate score higher than that world wide and US average.

The plan proposed by the OP would only benefit the kids in the schools where they aren't experiencing any significant problems. The kids we're failing are the kids whose parents can't afford to feed them. What makes us think they could afford extra $ for an AP class or "the best" teacher?

[Deleted]

I don't think the schools would look much different then they are now. Parents who can afford smaller class sizes already move to better school districts. One of my local school districts has a booster club that raises over a million each year.

Also - more money per student doesn't necessarily translate the way you think it would. School districts with high proportions of ESL, special needs and low income students receive much more funding per head than the more average school districts. My local school district spends about 2k less per student but achieves better results than the big city district next door. That probably has to do with the socio-economic make up of the students.

[luckyme]

" I do pay $$$ for class sizes of 10 and $$$ for brilliant teachers and I pay $$$ for security guards and $$$ for every kid to have a laptop and $$$ for freshly prepared organic lunches, etc - it's called private school. "

Well, its great you can do this for your kid(s). Most people can't afford to do so. So it then becomes a question on how to improve public schools. I don't know the answer to that. Since many in power don't deal with it, I don't think they realize just how bad it is, or maybe they don't care.

I do know our country is in serious trouble with the trend in the public schools today.

[Savoir Faire-Demogague in NJ]

But you both are right. My biggest fear is what is coming true. The public school will be filled with parents who don't care, who don't speak English, or have special needs. Or have no money to buy a better neighborhood/education for their children. One of my friends was educated in a small farm community and she says she got a better education then than her kids do now. What's the difference? Kids that don't speak English, kids from parents who don't care and cannot be disciplined, and special needs kids that suck up any and all resources leaving her regular ed kids to just take up space in a classroom.

In NYC, the Board of Ed wants to expand the number of charter schools. The UFT and NAACP is suing the BOE. Black community groups support more charter schools.

[zibazinski]

A charter school has rules on behavior, homework, parental involvement. The SAME things that should be required in ANY school. You're a parent who doesn't care about your child enough to see that they behave and do well in school? Then YOU reap what YOU sow, not the rest of the kids. My girlfriend says kids came from VERY poor families, hers was one of them, but they were told to behave and do well in school. Those "poor" kids are fed via your tax dollars, they aren't hungry. I am so over hearing that nonsense. If their parents sell their food stamps for money, then those parents need to be held accountable for a CHANGE.

[Savoir Faire-Demogague in NJ]

That is right Zib. It is interesting that the minority communities in NYC are the ones suffering. Minority families and parents want their kids in these schools.

[Deleted]

Minority families and parents want their kids in these schools.

And they are using parent trigger laws to do it.

www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,2077564,00.html

[zibazinski]

Most black families are against bussing, too. They want the kids in their neighborhood schools. They just wanted the schools to be EQUAL.

[Small Biz Owner]

What about the extremely bright students from the very poor families. Then they get shafted.

How? If one has the desire to learn, they will learn, regardless. The IQ of a student does not change, regardless of the school.

[CarolinaKat]

Jun 17, 2011 11:58:35 GMT -5 Small Biz Owner said:

What about the extremely bright students from the very poor families. Then they get shafted.

How? If one has the desire to learn, they will learn, regardless. The IQ of a student does not change, regardless of the school.

If they can't affort to pay for the 'gifted model' that was being discussed earlier, they will be denied access to the accelerated classes and the GPA boost that goes with them.

[zibazinski]

They'll still get perks just from being poor/minority. When I was in school there was no gifted or even AP/Honors classes. I still got into college and did well there. If I had even thought of misbehaving, after the teacher and principal beat my butt, my parents would have. If the kids have sat in front of Jerry for 5 years instead of being read to and going to pre-school, they are already behind the eight ball. It infuriates me that we just give money to these loser parents and require NOTHING in return from them, even parenting their children.

[thyme4change]

Does the OP smack of "Some Pigs are more equal than others" or is it my imagination?

If you have money - go find a private school that fits your needs.

[zibazinski]

You shouldn't have to pay for a private school to get your child the education they deserve in a public school. The schools need to fight back against laws and parents designed to overthrow the design of the school system. I should have to PAY to get my child a room disruption free where the kids speak Engish?

[CarolinaKat]

You are paying for that through taxes. Certian Public Schools aren't delivering it

Edited: to make Thyme happier

[zibazinski]

Amen. I have always wondered when a regular ed student's parent was going to sue for their rights to an education that their tax dollars pay for?

[thyme4change]

Public Schools aren't delivering it

I would encourage you to put the word "Some" or "Not all" in front of that sentence. Because schools are run locally, you can't say that every single classroom in every single public school is completely unacceptable. It is a very localized system - even with all the stupid federal requirements and testing.

[CarolinaKat]

Jun 17, 2011 12:40:13 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

Public Schools aren't delivering it

I would encourage you to put the word "Some" or "Not all" in front of that sentence. Because schools are run locally, you can't say that every single classroom in every single public school is completely unacceptable. It is a very localized system - even with all the stupid federal requirements and testing.

I meant it the way you suggest. Wouldn't have occured to me that I had said "Every public school system in the US is a horrendous nightmare and should be banned"

[Colleenz]

Does the OP smack of "Some Pigs are more equal than others" or is it my imagination?

No - you are imagining. It is a suggestion to help public schools compete with private schools and bring that money back into the public system.

[formerexpat]

Our current system promotes mediocrity instead of fostering excellence.

Our current system is designed by government and unions. I can hardly contain my laughter from the irony.