economic perspective on same sex marriage

[Mardi Gras Audrey]

Jun 15, 2011 12:03:55 GMT -5 Tiny said:

As far as spending money at businesses, gay people live together and spend money regardless of if they're married or not. I don't think it'd have much impact on businesses in the community.

Yes, gay people spend money regardless of whether they are married or not - what I think it comes down to is WHERE and WHAT businesses get the money. The gay people I know tend to support gay or gay friendly businesses. When they need a plumber or a roofer or a restaurant to go to - they don't necessarily pick the closet or best bid - they tend to support the one's that are gay friendly. Even if it means going out of their way to do it.
My suburb wants the gay community to spend money within the city limits so they want the gay friendly plumber/roofer/restaurant IN the city not two suburbs over...

I don't understand this... a gay friendly plumber ? I have seen the "gay friendly" ads for various businesses but I never understood it. Why would you want your HVAC guy, your roofer, etc to know about your sexuality? I can understand a restaurant (maybe they want to take out their significant other and don't want to be uncomfortable or asked to leave) but household repairs, movers, etc? I have owned a house and had many repairs done and never once did it occur to me that talking about sex and my sexuality would be an appropriate conversation. Usually, the conversation is something like "Wow, it's hot outside." "Yes, I hope it cools down soon" "Yes. When will the leak in my roof be fixed?" "Tomorrow" "Great...can I pay by check."....nowhere in there would I have any information about the person's sexuality or they about mine.

[Mardi Gras Audrey]

Jun 15, 2011 13:57:20 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

That's probably where I heard it. I was the official photographer for the down low for a couple months in college. I was broke and too ugly to do porn.

The downlow have an official photographer? I want to know more....

Overall, I think that revenue would go up. We would have more awesome weddings. Think of the amount of revenue coming in from the receptions, venue rentals, tuxes, etc. It would definitely be a boost for small businesses. All of my gay friends would go big, too....No cheap stuff. They want quality and are willing to pay for it.

We had this conversation on YM on "What does being gay cost society?" (Thank you, Thyme, for coming up with that one) and the answers pretty much came up with that it would be a great economic boost. I think the only ones that would lose money would be the lawyers that currently have to draft up everything in the binder. Maybe they can switch to divorce law and get some revenue that way.

[Cookies Galore]

Jun 15, 2011 12:59:43 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

I heard 10% too. Same as gingers.

So a gay ginger is something special and rare, like the mythical minotaur.

[Mardi Gras Audrey]

Jun 15, 2011 19:31:03 GMT -5 Cookies Galore said:

Jun 15, 2011 12:59:43 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

I heard 10% too. Same as gingers.

So a gay ginger is something special and rare, like the mythical minotaur.

LOL... yes, they should be tagged and tracked for migratory purposes... we don't want them going extinct.

[Deleted]

Jun 15, 2011 14:28:48 GMT -5 Sum Dum Gai said:

I disagree. If you are a man and you prefer men, but you marry a woman in order to appear straight, that does not make you bisexual.

Right, but if you marry a woman and have regular sex with her, while also having regular sex with dudes on the down low it does make you bisexual.

Actually, that would make you someone who engages in bisexual behavior.

Considering yourself bisexual is what makes you bisexual (...or gay... or straight). Behavior and identity are related, but not the same thing.

The statistic I'd be interested in is how many people would consider themselves gay if there was no risk of discrimination.

To stats45's point, I don't think we can know what proportion of the gay community chooses to marry (when the option is available) because we don't know what the denominator is. My impression is that gay people choose monogamy about as often as straight people.

[raeoflyte]

Jun 15, 2011 19:21:32 GMT -5 Mardi Gras Audrey said:

Jun 15, 2011 12:03:55 GMT -5 Tiny said:

As far as spending money at businesses, gay people live together and spend money regardless of if they're married or not. I don't think it'd have much impact on businesses in the community.

Yes, gay people spend money regardless of whether they are married or not - what I think it comes down to is WHERE and WHAT businesses get the money. The gay people I know tend to support gay or gay friendly businesses. When they need a plumber or a roofer or a restaurant to go to - they don't necessarily pick the closet or best bid - they tend to support the one's that are gay friendly. Even if it means going out of their way to do it.
My suburb wants the gay community to spend money within the city limits so they want the gay friendly plumber/roofer/restaurant IN the city not two suburbs over...

I don't understand this... a gay friendly plumber ? I have seen the "gay friendly" ads for various businesses but I never understood it. Why would you want your HVAC guy, your roofer, etc to know about your sexuality? I can understand a restaurant (maybe they want to take out their significant other and don't want to be uncomfortable or asked to leave) but household repairs, movers, etc? I have owned a house and had many repairs done and never once did it occur to me that talking about sex and my sexuality would be an appropriate conversation. Usually, the conversation is something like "Wow, it's hot outside." "Yes, I hope it cools down soon" "Yes. When will the leak in my roof be fixed?" "Tomorrow" "Great...can I pay by check."....nowhere in there would I have any information about the person's sexuality or they about mine.

Audrey--I think this comes into play especially with plumbers, hvac, people etc, that are going to be digging around your home, or that you will be sharing personal information with such as a lender or lawyer.

I'm not suggesting that your orientation would come up in any way while the furnace gets fixed. But I don't want to work with someone who doesn't believe I have a right to raise children, etc.

[stats45]

Crafty, you are exactly right that it is difficult to know the denominator. That said, most good research on sexual behavior does suggest that fewer gay persons (particularly gay men) are in monogamous relationships than their straight counterparts. Even among gay couples in a long-term monogamous relationship, fewer choose recognition via gay marriage, civil unions, domestic partnerships even when available.

I don't think either of these points could reasonably be used to suggest that gay relationships shouldn't have some type of recognition. We don't go through demographic data and deny marriage to other demographic groups where marriage rates are lower than the norm, for example.

Rae, I agree. It can be awkward going into a place and not knowing how they are going to respond. I have found though that the overwhelming majority of people I've met are polite and respectful. I don't really care if someone is very religious or believes the homosexuality is a sin, as long as they provide me excellent service, treat me no differently in their employment, and don't drag me into any discussions (at their place of employment or otherwise) about personal issues on which we may disagree.

[zibazinski]

By accident one time, X and I while still married were put into a gay (for men) B&B in Key West. People couldn't have been nicer and since we had no where else to go, X had to deal with it and blame me, of course. No one was mean, hateful, or disgustingly obvious. I don't like to be around hetero couples that paw each other either. As long as their money is good and their behavior is appropriate for the venue, I don't care. I probably run into a lot of gay people and don't even know it which is fine by me. They don't need to know my sexual persuasion, either. People would be a lot happier if they just minded their own business.

[Deleted]

Jun 15, 2011 20:10:13 GMT -5 raeoflyte said:

Jun 15, 2011 19:21:32 GMT -5 Mardi Gras Audrey said:

I don't understand this... a gay friendly plumber ? I have seen the "gay friendly" ads for various businesses but I never understood it. Why would you want your HVAC guy, your roofer, etc to know about your sexuality? I can understand a restaurant (maybe they want to take out their significant other and don't want to be uncomfortable or asked to leave) but household repairs, movers, etc? I have owned a house and had many repairs done and never once did it occur to me that talking about sex and my sexuality would be an appropriate conversation. Usually, the conversation is something like "Wow, it's hot outside." "Yes, I hope it cools down soon" "Yes. When will the leak in my roof be fixed?" "Tomorrow" "Great...can I pay by check."....nowhere in there would I have any information about the person's sexuality or they about mine.

Audrey--I think this comes into play especially with plumbers, hvac, people etc, that are going to be digging around your home, or that you will be sharing personal information with such as a lender or lawyer.

I'm not suggesting that your orientation would come up in any way while the furnace gets fixed. But I don't want to work with someone who doesn't believe I have a right to raise children, etc.

It also is supporting a community. You want to support your community and have it grow and prosper therefore you spend money with in your community.

[Deleted]

Jun 15, 2011 10:39:49 GMT -5 @robbase said:

Also the marriage penalty, generally speaking (I realize there are some exceptions but generally speaking don't married people pay more tax than if they each filed as singles?), the newly married same sex people would now pay slightly more federal tax (if the fed allowed this)

Generally I don't think this is true, except for high earning couples. I think there was some effort to remove the marriage penalty a while ago. If one earner makes significantly more than the other, I think they would pay less in taxes.

For an example I ran some pretty crude # on the taxes of a couple who make 130K combined. For simplicity I used the standard deduction. Now if one of them were able to itemize while the other claimed the standard deduction, that would influence things as well.

If the couple file married jointly their tax liability would be 20K for federal.
If they were unmarried, both made 65K, and filed single, each would have a tax liability of 10K, so same result.
If they were unmarried and one made 100K and the other 30K, they would have tax liability of 23,032 combined.

You would also have the social security issue, where spouses are allowed to collect on the earnings of the other spouse.

There are also some inheritance issues. Yes you can name anyone you want as the beneficiary of your 401K, but the IRS has different rules for spouses. Up until recently partners were subject to a 10% inheritance tax in my state, because they were deemed not family.

I am not saying any of this is right. I am a supporter of gay marriage or civil unions, but I don't think it will be an economic boom for government.

[thyme4change]

Why would you want your HVAC guy, your roofer, etc to know about your sexuality?

I don't understand why people would prefer a christian tradesman, but I see the little Jesus/fish symbol on all sorts of advertisements.

I think this comes into play especially with plumbers, hvac, people etc, that are going to be digging around your home, or that you will be sharing personal information with such as a lender or lawyer.

I agree that there are enough homophobes out there that you don't want to be sitting there with your partner in a random mortgage lender's office, only to have your lender realize what is going on and get tripped up on moral issues.

This board has recently shown great fear of just about anyone. If you were a gay man and you picked a plumber out of the phone book, what are the chances that this blue-collar tradesman is the kind of guy that might get violent at something like homosexuality. And now, this guy is in your house - in your bedroom, with you and nobody else. Want to take that chance?

[zibazinski]

Hah!! I purposely don't choose anyone who advertises to be a Christian. Anytime I do, I get the shaft.

[Sum Dum Gai]

This board has recently shown great fear of just about anyone. If you were a gay man and you picked a plumber out of the phone book, what are the chances that this blue-collar tradesman is the kind of guy that might get violent at something like homosexuality. And now, this guy is in your house - in your bedroom, with you and nobody else. Want to take that chance?

I don't think that's the worry, it's really more about going out of their way to support people who are tolerant of their lifestyle and trying to avoid those that aren't. I'm not a minority but I find racism disgusting, so I wouldn't do business with people that are blatantly racist. I don't want to support in any way an asshat like that, even though I'm white so I'm not worried about being the target of that racism. I imagine gay people are the same way, they don't want to do business with somebody that they later find out is a backer of a bill trying to deny gay marriage or something. If there's a business that markets itself as gay friendly in some way they can be pretty sure their dollars aren't going to support a bigot that wants to take away their rights.

[thyme4change]

I will also say that a business can become gay friendly without any thought to it. As with many types of businesses, when you go to hire an air conditioning guy you call your friends and say "Hey, do you know any air conditioning guys?" And, gay people have been known to hang out with other gay people. So, you are gay and your gay friend says "Yes, I know a great A/C guy." And now that guy has 2 gay clients. Each of those clients tells two friends, who tell two friends, and so on and so forth, and all of a sudden, bam - you are "gay community approved."

It also happens because you start working in a certain area of town, you may get a disproptionate amount of customers who are gay.

[thyme4change]

Hah!! I purposely don't choose anyone who advertises to be a Christian. Anytime I do, I get the shaft.

Like the carpet cleaner who left me a Watchtower.

[bring in the new year]

Athena, double check the social security answer if you were married to the ex for more than 10 years during which he was paying SS taxes. I think there's an answer before ten years and one after ten years, and the one after ten years is you can collect. But I could easily be wrong (it's been a long time since I had to deal with that one).

As for the percentages, I think 7-8% may be right, but I wouldn't be shocked by the 10% number. Because I know a lot of people who are out, I also know a lot of people who aren't, and I don't know that you could guess by meeting them that they were gay.

Andrew Sullivan makes the argument that because gay teens know that they may be thrown out of their families and be completely independent once they come out, they tend to either screw up badly or work very very hard to be financially secure. I do know that if you as a business are perceived as being gay friendly, nice people with money start showing up on your doorstep. I'm not smart enough to figure out whether gay marriage would be tax neutral or not, but I do know it's very beneficial to communities.

DH, didn't you mention that you worked in a defense related industry? That might cut down on the percentage of people coming out where you are.

[bring in the new year]

Haapai,

Because of my aunt, I knew instantly what the three ring binder was for. How sad is that?

Luckily, my aunt and her partner lived in MA and were able to get married once it became legal. But even so, women who had had a 27 year relationship spent a lot of money on lawyers just trying to get things covered that most of us have covered by signing a marriage license.

So legal fees would be a part of the economy that would take a hit if gay marriage became legal. ;D

[Sum Dum Gai]

DH, didn't you mention that you worked in a defense related industry? That might cut down on the percentage of people coming out where you are.

That's true. I work for a consulting company that does a lot of business for the DoD. I've known one employee who was gay, and he wasn't out with everybody. We shared an office for a while, so he was comfortable telling me after a bit. I was talking more about people I meet in my private life than coworkers. We hosted the local LGBT equality group's Christmas party at our house, and the fact that they fit in our house should tell you it's a pretty small group. It obviously only consists of those who are out, and have the time/inclination to be politically active locally, but still. 10% would surprise me.

[Phoenix84]

"As for the percentages, I think 7-8% may be right, but I wouldn't be shocked by the 10% number."

I still say those numbers are very high. 10% of the popultion being gay would mean one in ten people you meet are gay. I just don't see it. I know you can't tell someone is gay just by looking at them or interacting with them, but I still don't believe it.

First, it depends on how you define "gay." Does having sex once with someone of the same sex make you gay? Does having sex with someone in the past 12 months make you gay? Does self identifying as gay make you gay? Does being in a comited relationship with someone of the same sex make you gay? Does even thinking about having sex with someone of the same sex make you gay? How you define gay will make a big difference in what percentage of the population is gay.

Second, your sexuality is something that you may be open about, or try to hide, even from youself. Some people won't admit, even on an anonomys survey that they're gay. Some people can't even admit to themselves they're gay.

Third, just because "10% of the people I know are gay" doesn't mean that 10% (or whatever) of the population is gay. Your social circle probably isn't reflective of national averages.

According to the statistic I found, 3.5% of the adult population in the United States self identifies as gay, lesbian, or bisexual. Transgendered people constitute 0.3%. In certain places it is higher, like Washington DC has 8.1% of the population as gay, and San Fransisco has 8.2% of the population is gay.

[Phoenix84]

"As for the percentages, I think 7-8% may be right, but I wouldn't be shocked by the 10% number."

I still say those numbers are very high. 10% of the popultion being gay would mean one in ten people you meet are gay. I just don't see it. I know you can't tell someone is gay just by looking at them or interacting with them, but I still don't believe it.

First, it depends on how you define "gay." Does having sex once with someone of the same sex make you gay? Does having sex with someone in the past 12 months make you gay? Does self identifying as gay make you gay? Does being in a comited relationship with someone of the same sex make you gay? Does even thinking about having sex with someone of the same sex make you gay? How you define gay will make a big difference in what percentage of the population is gay.

Second, your sexuality is something that you may be open about, or try to hide, even from youself. Some people won't admit, even on an anonomys survey that they're gay. Some people can't even admit to themselves they're gay.

Third, just because "10% of the people I know are gay" doesn't mean that 10% (or whatever) of the population is gay. Your social circle probably isn't reflective of national averages.

According to the statistic I found, 3.5% of the adult population in the United States self identifies as gay, lesbian, or bisexual. Transgendered people constitute 0.3%. In certain places it is higher, like Washington DC has 8.1% of the population as gay, and San Fransisco has 8.2% of the population is gay.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_demographics_in_the_United_States

[TheOtherMe]

I have a lot of gay and lesbian friends and relatives.

One of my lesbian friends recently lost her partner very suddenly. The partner who died had been the breadwinner in their relationship and the one who survives had been a stay at home mom to their dogs and took care of the house. Other partner took care of the money.

She doesn't qualify for her partner's social security and doesn't have enough paid work time in to get it on her own. She is in her 60's. What is she to do? She is the beneficiary on 401Ks and IRAs, etc. She is scared to death of what her future holds. They had been together 33 years.

I really hope that some day this country will no longer discriminate against anyone.

[zibazinski]

That's also what life insurance is for.

[Plain Old Petunia]

<< She doesn't qualify for her partner's social security and doesn't have enough paid work time in to get it on her own. She is in her 60's. What is she to do? She is the beneficiary on 401Ks and IRAs, etc. She is scared to death of what her future holds. They had been together 33 years. >>

Did they have life insurance? Is the amount in the 401ks/IRAs substantial?

[bring in the new year]

zibazinski, that's true. But remember survivor now has to pay taxes on everything she inherited.

Annie Lebowitz had to go into great debt after Susan Sontag died for that very reason. Things that would not be taxable to a straight survivor are for gays.

Theotherme, zibainski does have a good point. if the one who died was the one who handled the money issues, is the survivor sure she knows about all the life insurance policies? That would have been the easiest way to take care of her. She may have already done it, but she should check with the workplace and with the bank to make sure there's no safety deposit box.

The other problem my aunt and her partner had was because they were not out at work, certain things like 401ks could not be left to the survivor originally without outing themselves. Even after they retired, a few of those things slipped through the cracks so that when her partner died there was a tax bill. So for people who should be covered by life insurance or disability insurance at work, you can't always name your partner in those papers unless you're out.

I know this started about the tax effect of gay marriage but you know what my real issue is? My aunt and her partner could be treated like crap legally after a 27 year relationship while Britney Spears could run off to Vegas for two days and be considered legally married.

If her spouse had had a surviving sibling, my aunt could have been turned away from her deathbed, even if the siblings hadn't spoken in years.

Every decision they made - whether to buy a beach house or travel abroad - had to be weighed against what would the issues be if something happened to one or the other of them. My aunt due to her position with her company should have had her taxes done for free for five - ten years. She couldn't do that because there were too many things that might expose them. (Granted this was before gay marriage was legal in MA but it's just one annoyance among many) I knew what the three ring binder was because I knew they had one in their home. Each of those pieces of paper was a couple of hours in legal fees.

[raeoflyte]

Do many people carry life insurance into their 60's? I can only get quotes for 30 year terms which means that the only policy we could potentially have would be through employers at that point. Or pay an a$$ ton of money for it, when it would probably be better suited to pay that a$$ ton of money to long term care insurance.

Hopefully their retirement accounts will provide enough for her, and she won't have to fight any other family members for rights to it. It's awful to have to worry about money at such an emotionally turbulent time.