Virgil Showlion
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[b]leones potest resistere[/b]
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Jun 15, 2011 13:15:24 GMT -5
I understand that, chiver. There's a financial perspective in the debate on whether a civilian should be able place a licensed siren on his/her car. Even so, I can't fathom the revenue from the licensing fees having any influence at all on people's opinion on the matter. It's a contrarian view, but a relevant one. Obviously the issue has crossed the minds of some people or else the OP wouldn't have brought it up.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2011 13:20:25 GMT -5
When they need a plumber or a roofer or a restaurant to go to - they don't necessarily pick the closet or best bid
Just had to point out this typo here! ;D
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phil5185
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Post by phil5185 on Jun 15, 2011 13:27:25 GMT -5
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Jun 15, 2011 13:31:57 GMT -5
Dark, another thing to think about is that you really can't tell a person's sexuality by their looks (well, except those really flamboyant guys...) and you've never needed to know that detail about the people you meet. Well sure, but when I listen to gays and lesbians talk about how sparse the dating scene is I don't get the idea that they have a pool of 10% of the total population to choose from. We're only a couple hours from San Francisco, which probably draws a disproportionate number of LGBT folks out of the surrounding areas, so that could be part of it. this includes the women in my locker room, since we pretty much see each other naked after hockey games. Wait, so the fact that they were female hockey players didn't tip you off right away? I don't need to hang out in a locker room full of female football players to know that not many of them would be glancing at my junk while I changed... just sayin.
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chiver78
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Post by chiver78 on Jun 15, 2011 13:36:33 GMT -5
this includes the women in my locker room, since we pretty much see each other naked after hockey games. Wait, so the fact that they were female hockey players didn't tip you off right away? I don't need to hang out in a locker room full of female football players to know that not many of them would be glancing at my junk while I changed... just sayin. hmm....given that I also play, not really.
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Jun 15, 2011 13:38:16 GMT -5
My issue with this study is that it is based on self-identification - which we humans are notoriously bad at. Just look at the debates that pop up whenever we try to group the "middle class", or what percentage of us are "above-average drivers" I'm sure men in the down-low community would never identify themselves as gay. Plenty of them are married to women. But if you continually have sex with people of the same sex... isn't that what "gay" is? That study says 8.2% of the population has had sex with someone of the same sex... I'd say the real number of gay Americans is somewhere between 1.7% and 8.2%. It is extraordinarily hard to quantify.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Jun 15, 2011 13:42:18 GMT -5
I'm sure men in the down-low community would never identify themselves as gay. Plenty of them are married to women. But if you continually have sex with people of the same sex... isn't that what "gay" is? They'd actually be bisexual, since they usually have sex with their wives as well as other men. We're also talking about a subset of a subset, so the African American down low community probably isn't big enough to really change the national average all that much.
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Jun 15, 2011 13:44:03 GMT -5
I realize that, I was just using it as an example of the problems that come about by depending upon self-identification to quantify anything...
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Jun 15, 2011 13:45:40 GMT -5
Well, regardless of the percentage of gay and lesbian folks out there, it's still a small minority and legalizing marriage wouldn't affect their spending much or the taxes they pay.
Overall I say the financial implications are negligible.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Jun 15, 2011 13:48:17 GMT -5
But I will say I think 10% is really high. I'd say it's 5% or less, and it depends also on how you define what being "gay" means. Do you count people who identify themselves as gay? Do you count people who have had sex with a same sex partner in their adult lives? Do you consider fantasies?
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Jun 15, 2011 13:53:34 GMT -5
I hear it is only gay if you are taking it.
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swamp
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THEY’RE EATING THE DOGS!!!!!!!
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Post by swamp on Jun 15, 2011 13:56:05 GMT -5
I hear it is only gay if you are taking it. That's what the guys on the down low say.................
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Jun 15, 2011 13:57:19 GMT -5
I guess I must have an unusually high number of gay friends/acquaintances/family members... 10% seemed reasonable to me. Heck, 2 of DH's immediate family members (sister and uncle) are gay. And we live in conservative Whitebread, USA.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Jun 15, 2011 13:57:20 GMT -5
That's probably where I heard it. I was the official photographer for the down low for a couple months in college. I was broke and too ugly to do porn.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2011 14:02:01 GMT -5
I did a quick search of my FB friends once and got 10% gay. Those include anyone who's said they're gay, regardless of whether they're in a relationship. The actual % could be higher.
But to get to the economics- governments like marriage because it allows them to hold one person financially responsible for another. If you're married, you're legally responsible for your spouse's medical expenses. (Found that out the hard way when I got a Garnishment attempt on my pay because my then-husband didn't pay his medical bills and he was unemployed.) If one of you needs to go into a nursing home and Medicaid is the only way to go, the healthy spouse has to spend down on nursing home care for the other to the point that they themselves are impoverished so that the other person qualifies. When I was divorcing, my attorney said that if my Ex had himself declared mentally disabled (he had bipolar disorder and was an alcoholic), I could be held financially responsible for him. 85% of DH's SS is taxable- because he's married to me and I'm still working. I can't collect widow's benefits on my late Ex's SS because I married DH.
I don't think it would exactly balance the national budget, but overall I think tax revenues would increase if same-sex couples could marry. They probably have increased in states where it's legal.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jun 15, 2011 14:02:34 GMT -5
;D
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Plain Old Petunia
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Post by Plain Old Petunia on Jun 15, 2011 14:04:35 GMT -5
<< They'd actually be bisexual, since they usually have sex with their wives as well as other men. >>
I disagree. If you are a man and you prefer men, but you marry a woman in order to appear straight, that does not make you bisexual.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jun 15, 2011 14:20:05 GMT -5
No, it makes you an a-hole to destroy an innocent woman and sometimes children's lives. If you are gay, be gay and stay away from women to "cover" for you.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Jun 15, 2011 14:28:48 GMT -5
I disagree. If you are a man and you prefer men, but you marry a woman in order to appear straight, that does not make you bisexual. Right, but if you marry a woman and have regular sex with her, while also having regular sex with dudes on the down low it does make you bisexual.
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haapai
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Post by haapai on Jun 15, 2011 14:59:48 GMT -5
I'm a strong supporter of gay marriage but I have a hard time arguing that will be revenue-positive or revenue-neutral on the federal level. The revenue effects for states are pretty tiny compared to what the end of DOMA will bring. There will be a bill associated with getting rid of that embarrassing and unconstitutional piece of ugliness.
It's a bill or a premium increase that we probably should pay. It's small and it beats the crap out of teaching another generation that some people are more equal than others. My nephews are getting old enough to wonder why their elderly out-of-state great aunties have a three-ring binder on the back dash of their car. I really don't want to explain that one to them.
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doxieluvr
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Post by doxieluvr on Jun 15, 2011 15:13:57 GMT -5
Haapai- can you explain the significance to me? Whats the binder for?
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Plain Old Petunia
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bloom where you are planted
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Post by Plain Old Petunia on Jun 15, 2011 15:18:53 GMT -5
<< No, it makes you an a-hole to destroy an innocent woman and sometimes children's lives. If you are gay, be gay and stay away from women to "cover" for you. >>
Spot on. You get karma for that.
<< Right, but if you marry a woman and have regular sex with her, while also having regular sex with dudes on the down low it does make you bisexual. >>
Still disagree. Having sex with a person of the opposite gender when you don't really want to in order to maintain the charade that you are straight does not make you bisexual. To be bisexual, you would have to have a genuine interest in both women and men.
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Jun 15, 2011 15:21:41 GMT -5
I do think the number of true bisexuals - that is, equally attracted to members of both sexes - is very, very low. Eventually, people tend to pick one side or another.
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haapai
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Post by haapai on Jun 15, 2011 15:24:47 GMT -5
It's an expensively compiled collection of health care proxies, POAs and other legal documents. They'll need it if the shit hits the fan while they are on the road. It has cost them thousands and it still won't provide nearly the same benefits and protection that my mom gets merely by saying "my husband" or by showing a drivers' license with the same last name.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Jun 15, 2011 15:24:57 GMT -5
-Deleted - The real answer was better than the one I made up. (ALthough, for the record, I was pretty much right.)
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Plain Old Petunia
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bloom where you are planted
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Post by Plain Old Petunia on Jun 15, 2011 15:29:54 GMT -5
I also think the economic impact of allowing same sex marriage would be miniscule.
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phil5185
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Post by phil5185 on Jun 15, 2011 15:43:44 GMT -5
It's an expensively compiled collection of health care proxies, POAs and other legal documents. They'll need it if the shit hits the fan while they are on the road. It has cost them thousands and it still won't provide nearly the same benefits Thx - the '3-ring binder' went over my head too. Interesting, makes sense.
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doxieluvr
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Post by doxieluvr on Jun 15, 2011 15:56:32 GMT -5
Glad mine only contains coupons for groceries and personal supplies.
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haapai
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Post by haapai on Jun 15, 2011 16:11:12 GMT -5
It probably looks bigger on the bean-counter's report than it actually is. The costs are easy to count. The benefits are more diffuse. For example, it harms our growth somewhat when an unmarried couple has to set aside several months of COBRA in an EF instead of what it would cost to add one married partner to the other's health insurance. That's several hundred to several thousands of dollars doing nothing for a couple of decades. It has a stagnating effect on our economy but it's a pain to estimate.
I think of marriage as an insurance policy with a miniscule premium that is only collected in good times. In exchange, you get some wonderful coverage when the bottom falls out of your world. It pays off big-time when one partner is disabled, unemployed, going to school, or passes away. We'd all benefit from more universal coverage but we're to focused on the costs that we can count.
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stats45
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Post by stats45 on Jun 15, 2011 19:06:23 GMT -5
Sexual behavior is not a good way to look at what percentage of the population is gay when considering who is 'at risk' of wanting a gay marriage. People who have casual sexual encounters with someone of the same sex are not going to be people who want legal recognition of their gay relationship. For this, it is best to look at people who identify as gay (and maybe some people who identify as bisexual). This is closer to 2-3% of the population.
In states with gay marriage, a mush smaller percentage of gay couples than heterosexual couples choose to marry. Even if civil unions or other types of recognition are added, the number of couples in these unions is very low. I would imagine the direct costs/benefits of enacting gay marriage are not very much.
I could imagine it making a difference in choosing employment. For example, one state could have a comparative advantage in attracting highly skilled gay workers over another if it had more legal protections for gay workers. I still think this would have very minor macro-economic influence.
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