not too far off from Lord of the Flies already

[robbase]

"Unfortunate" people hooked more and more on various benefits (with almost 50% of people not paying any federal tax)

The people of Greece's reaction to spending cuts w/ riots (OMG they raised the retirement age by 2 years or something- you would think it was the end of the world-----IMO riots and things like this ARE coming to the US in the next 5-10 years)

refusal of some areas in US to enforce BLATANT immigration personnel

people OBSESSED w/ their cell phones / iphones- texting and emailing / web browsing NONSENSE during movies, restaurant meals, actual work time (when they like should be doing work), etc (again I emphasize the word NONSENSE- I understand if you get a call from a relative on their death bed during a restaurant meal or whatever you should probably answer--but walk away from the damn eating area as you talk please

people BLATANTLY not picking up after the dog

people not retuning their weights in the gym (forget about them putting them back in the wrong area as a peeve---most people don't even return them at all)

ETA= America's obsession w/ dopey realities shows

I could go on but you get the idea

am I wrong? over reacting? people always say the "Amercian spirit returns eventually and we overcome, blah blah blah and stuff but this time I don't see it....

comments?

[wodehouse]

tee-hee, this sounds just like the talk when I was a kid in the 1950's and 1960's.

Not to say that I don't think you have some good points...you do.

But perhaps this is how it is for each new generation.

OTOH, are these normal generational issues, or are we in Rome at the downfall?

[Poppet]

Interesting.

It's fun to compare today's society to story about a bunch of shipwrecked boys.

However, neglected dog poo and gym weights is not the death knell of civilized society.

I do like your mention of electronic gizmos just because it reminds me of the Conch in the book.


people OBSESSED w/ their cell phones / iphones- texting and emailing / web browsing NONSENSE


Everyone's holding their own shiny Conch these days. But it's lost it's symbolic value and few get heard.

Still, don't smash the conch, man. Then it'll really get bad.

[Tiny]

I could go on but you get the idea

Time to get out of the comfortable rut you are in and start moving again... if you stop moving the zombies will get you.
It won't be a "lord of the flies" future - it will be a Zombie* Apocolypse.

*Zombies in the a metaphorical sorta way - people who are slaves to their technology or tradition or some stale ideal. Zombies can be compared to Sheeple...

[bean29]

When you talk about people rioting in Grece becasue they want to raise the retirement age 2 years...it gives one pause when you look at statistics like this:

www.politifact.com/wisconsin/statements/2011/jun/14/michelle-litjens/wisconsin-gop-rep-michelle-litjens-says-taxpayers-/

Wisconsin GOP Rep. Michelle Litjens says taxpayers pay for 45 percent of births in state, 60 percent in Milwaukee

No matter how you look at it, the statistics are not good. If residents are qualifying for Medicare to have babies that means that nearly 50% of the births in the state are to people who live below the state's poverty level. Yikes.

[phil5185]

However, neglected dog poo and gym weights is not the death knell of civilized society.

OK, then how about this one? In the AZ Paper this morning the DMV said that less than 40% of current applicants are passing the written test for their driver's license. That test has been pretty constant for over 50 yrs that I know of - our 40ish daughters took it 25 years ago. I just took a sample test on their website, same questions that I saw >50 yrs ago.

So maybe the dumbing down of Education will be the death knell of our society? It will become increasingly hard for the US to do business in a world where the other 190 nations are operating at a significantly different educational level than we are.

[Angel!]

Jun 14, 2011 8:53:16 GMT -5 @robbase said:

"Unfortunate" people hooked more and more on various benefits (with almost 50% of people not paying any federal tax)

50% pay no federal INCOME tax. Only 10% pay no federal taxes at all.

I don't see any riots here as long as the govt starts planning ahead. Tell people in their 30's that their retirement age will be pushed back a year or 2 & medicare won't cover as much, no one will be surprised & it will go over ok. If the govt doesn't start making changes & has to start changing retirement on people in their 50's, then people are going to start getting upset.

[midjd]

I agree with Angel. I'm 27 - tell me next year I can't draw SS until I'm 70, so what? I don't care. Tell me that when I'm 62 - I'll be pretty pissed.

FWIW, I do think a lot of SS problems could be solved just by raising the retirement age. Plenty of people living well into their 80s and 90s now - much different from when SS was first implemented. Didn't I read somewhere that when SS began, the average payout lasted 2 years? Now it's what, 15 or 20? No wonder we're in trouble.

[Poppet]

So maybe the dumbing down of Education will be the death knell of our society

This is where we agree. But why are we dumbing down our education?

[zibazinski]

So that everyone passes and feels good about themselves. Also, to placate their parents.

[Poppet]

So that everyone passes and feels good about themselves. Also, to placate their parents.

Oh, is that all?

I thought it might have to do with capitalism.

[myrrh]

Did I wander into the P&M board somehow?

[Deleted]

If you are pregnant or have an infant, the economic threshhold for certain assistance is higher... this is because early intervention, prenatal care, nutrition, etc. are less expensive in the long run than having to deal, on a societal level, with the outcomes of no prenatal care/nutrition/early intervention...

[zibazinski]

So we are told.

[Phoenix84]

I think you make some good points but are somewhat overreacting.

Some of the things, like the entitlement programs and statistics like 50+% of babies born in some states are funded by medicaide are cause for concern. There are plenty of other statistics out there that are scary like the number of out of wedlock births.

But people not picking up after their dog or not returning weights at the gym.... I have a hard time equating that to the end of the world as we know it.

But wodehouse is right, much of this sentament has been going on for countless generations. Rock and roll and women wearing pants were once considered the end of a moral and just society. It's funny looking back on it now but back then it was serious! I guess it might be part of getting old thinking the world is going to hell in a handbasket and everything was so much better when YOU were a kid. Nevermind your parents thought that your generation was the end of civilized society.

[robbase]

But people not picking up after their dog or not returning weights at the gym.... I have a hard time equating that to the end of the world as we know it.

I am not saying that is the end of the world, IMO Lord of the Flies wasn't the end of the world--it was just everyone doing whatever the hell they wanted because they could (whether it was right or wrong didn't matter) & because no one would stop them

[Tiny]

it was just everyone doing whatever the hell they wanted because they could (whether it was right or wrong didn't matter) & because no one would stop them

I think it was more kinda the idea that human nature comes with both good and bad wrapped up together (humans aren't inherently good or evil - they have the capasity for both). Yes, with out the right kind of "law and order" the boys certainly did degenerate into a society governed by fear and superstition and that great cruelties (and murder) were committed. Technically, NOT all the boys in the "hunter" group (the ones who gave in to their baser human natures) could do whatever the hell they wanted - the boys at the top of the heirarchy enforced their own set of rules and punishments on the rest of the boys. It wasn't particularly fair or just or remotely benevolent.

If anything I thought the story was an example of Might Makes Right. The boys at the bottom of the heirarchy in the 'hunter' group started rationalizing why had to take whatever abuse was handed out and that just maybe it was the 'right order of things'. Might makes right.

I think there are enough idealists in American society so that even with our somewhat 'corrupt' government the 'evil' or baser side of human nature will not overpower the belief that American society can be fair,just, and somewhat 'benevolent'. Maintaining that belief means some of the people will continue to stand up for and try to work towards it. Of course, it's hard to get large groups of people to agree on what is fair/just/benevolent... but hopefully you see why I'm thinking America won't backslide into something like North Korea (with a malevolent dictator and little fairness or justice) nor will America fall apart into warring states...

Just my opinion.

[Sum Dum Gai]

nor will America fall apart into warring states...

Until the zombies show up, then all hell will break loose! Fo syryus!

[Deleted]

The comparison I would use would be the fall of Rome. There are so many societal similarities including Romans not wanting to let Italians become Romans just like Americans don't want Mexicans to become Americans. The reality tv shows are comparable to the colliseums. The national debt...I'm sure there are more similarities but that is what I can think of off the top of my head.

[april47]

Jun 14, 2011 21:42:52 GMT -5 Sum Dum Gai said:

nor will America fall apart into warring states...

Until the zombies show up, then all hell will break loose! Fo syryus!

Not if you have zombie insurance.

[bring in the new year]

You know I was thnking about this post as I was picking up dog poop in the park this morning.

Twenty years ago I don't think most people I know did pick up dog poop. That's why you curbed them so they would poop in the street. It's why we checked the lawn out before we mowed. I also think people were more likely to throw their trash on the ground, not to recycle and to drive after a few beers. Not to mention I no longer have to hear rude stories at work or have random strangers say crude things to me and think I should feel complimented.

So you can make the argument that it's getting better not worse.

[phil5185]

I also think people were more likely to throw their trash on the ground

Good observation. During WW2, we willingly (patriotically) followed the rules. We hooded our headlites at night, almost no one cheated and burned their tractor gas allocation in their cars, we smashed tin cans, took the cans & newspapers & milkweed pods to the recycle center. We didn't use sugar, gasoline was rationed, etc. These things were self-policed via peer pressure.

But I remember going for Ice Cream, sitting in the car under a tree eating it, then driving down mainstreet and chucking the empty cups out the car windows as we sat in traffic. The gutter was lined with trash - the street sweepers went thru in the nite. Apparently it was considered 'normal', we didn't know not to. Today, those same people wouldn't even consider throwing trash out of a car window.

[wodehouse]

Phil, "milkweed pods"?

By the way, it has been YEARS since I've actually seen a street sweeper. I don't think I've seen one since I left (***) in 1984 and I've lived in 5 cities since then. (I did see a new street sweeper on a trailer on the highway once.)

[phil5185]

Phil, "milkweed pods"?

www.pantagraph.com/news/article_5099b3d3-117e-52c6-8815-c6893b97ea30.html

ETA. And marijuana plants - they were used for parachute rope (mostly?)

[Catseye]

I grew up in the 60's and 70's and the older generation just KNEW we were going to Hell in a hand basket. It was the End of Western Civilization!
I read somewhere that 98% of things you worry about never happen. I think that percentage is a little high, but for the most part, I agree with the statement.

[Deleted]

You may want to check out cabins in Montana.

[robbase]

Perhaps it seems nothing to you that they raise the retirement age two years until you realize that some of these people may have already submitted their papers only to wind up with no job and no pension. You might riot too.

THEY ARE CHANGING THE RETIREMENT AGE FOR PEOPLE THAT ARE LIKE 40 or 50 and YOUNGER, THOSE ELIGIBLE FOR RETIREMENT NOW (OR IN THE NEXT 15 years or so) will be UNAFFECTED

[robbase]

Perhaps it seems nothing to you that they raise the retirement age two years until you realize that some of these people may have already submitted their papers only to wind up with no job and no pension. You might riot too.

IN GREECE THEY ARE CHANGING THE RETIREMENT AGE FOR PEOPLE THAT ARE LIKE 40 or 50 and YOUNGER, THOSE ELIGIBLE FOR RETIREMENT NOW (OR IN THE NEXT 15 years or so) will be UNAFFECTED

[wodehouse]

My own SS retirement age was adjusted upward some 15+ years ago, the last time that SS was modified. Used to be age 65 was the standard age for everyone. Then it was adjusted upward depending on the birth year. So this is nothing new.

[Deleted]

Based on the SSA's benefit calculator, my wife and I would get about $3400/mo if we started each at age 62 (we are 34/37 now). Not chump change and definitely worth fighting for. I hate it when friends/coworkers say something like "SS won't be around when we retire".. They are giving up - letting the current retired people continue to be the loudest voice in Washington. Talk about a self fulfilling prophecy.

Sidestepping the debate of should SS exist at all, the big 3 problems over the years have been:
1. It was underfunded from Day1.. SS started out at only 1% contribution. This has meant adjusting the rate higher and higher to make up for the under-contributions.
2. People are living too long. Of course, that isn't the real problem. The real problem is the system on Day 1 didn't take that into account and adjusted too slowly. We continue to be way behind the curve.
3. Lastly, the rate of return only being able to buy government bonds is ultra safe and ultra lackluster for returns. I know some Republican's want to peel off parts into individually invested accounts, but how about we just start investing a small percentage in other investments.. Well, too late for this, the surplus is gone.