California's dropout numbers signal big crisis

[❤ mollymouser ❤]

www.fresnobee.com/2011/06/12/2423756/dan-walters-californias-dropout.html

The bedrock goal of any public elementary and high school system should be awarding high school diplomas to as many youngsters as possible.

Therefore, one might expect that with the tens of billions of dollars California spends each year to educate 6 million kids, and with the vital role schools play in the state's social, political and economic health, we'd know how we're doing.

However, we don't know. We use several methodologies to estimate graduation rates and their counterpart, dropout rates. But hard data are lacking, a statewide computerized student tracking system that's supposed to provide concrete numbers is incomplete, and Gov. Jerry Brown wants to eliminate its appropriation.

So we are left with inexact methodologies that give us approximate numbers. As fuzzy as they may be, they still indicate that California has a big-time dropout problem.

The latest numbers come from "Diplomas Count," a nationwide survey of graduation rates from a respected source, the publisher of Education Week magazine.

It found that graduation rates have been improving nationwide in recent years, including those in California. But our gain, up 5.5 percentage points in the 1998-2008 decade to 73 percent, was a bit slower than the national change.

Overall, the state's number is slightly above the national average and just about the middle of the state-by-state rankings, which are topped by New Jersey's 86.9 percent. But whatever comfort we may take from that is tempered by an immense ethnic gap.

California's white and Asian graduation rates are as high as New Jersey's, while those of the state's black and Latino students are below 60 percent.

One should hasten to add that dropout numbers are usually confined to high school and don't count kids who don't make it out of junior high, which would add several more percentage points to dropout rates.

Latinos already are more than half of the state's K-12 students and will soon become the state's largest ethnic group and therefore a vital economic component. This means that the 40 percent Latino dropout rate (again not counting junior high) should be considered a major economic crisis.

But what to do about it?

The education establishment says it's all a matter of money, even though there's no direct correlation between spending and academic achievement, either in state-to-state or school-to-school comparisons.

The issue is much more complicated, involving cultural pressures, societal expectations, parental involvement, discipline and other intangibles. But the political discourse begins and ends with money as a big part of the annual budget wrangle.

Meanwhile, at least 150,000 youngsters who were enrolled in California's schools didn't make it to high school graduation ceremonies this year. And we don't even know who they are.

[Deleted]

Troops on the border, for a start. Huge problem. We have to stop the flow of illegals NOW, then decide what to do about these people.

[mmhmm]

Sad, isn't it, Molly? Politicians have been advocating throwing money at this problem for decades, and it's only getting worse. What to do? Heck, I'm not even going to pretend I know. So much of the problem lies in cultural and societal pressures, as you say. Cultural tenets don't change easily, and any change that does occur is always very slow to surface. People don't like change, and will resist in most cases. In the meantime, these dropouts are going to find themselves on the bottom of the pile, looking up. Just plain sad.

[SweetVirginia]

High School drop out rates, and non grad rates are rising at an alarming rate. Those who know me here, know that I am a high school teacher in Southern CA. I teach in a suburban district which is predominately populated by illegal immigrants and their immigrant or American born children. In my experience, throwing more money at this problem will not help. The problem begins at the homes of these students. The parents of these students, for the most part, are poorly educated or not educated at all. The parents actually put very little value on education and instead, see public schools as a place to send their kids to be babysat, and fed each week day. Also, sending their kids to school ensures that they receive their monthly welfare checks. I am constantly being asked to verify students' attendance on welfare forms in order for parents to maintain their social benefits. A large portion of the students in my district are abusing substances as are their parents. I do think we could do more to help students with mental issues and drug problems.

That is not to say that there are not many ineffective teachers who have no business collecting a pay check each month. And I do believe that there needs to be some kind of reform when it comes to determining whether a teacher is actually qualified. I think the tenure system should be changed as well. My school district is undergoing major problems in terms of corruption right now as we speak. This is of course in terms of misappropriation of funds. All of these issues play a role in the break down of CA public education. But I maintain, that the heart of the problem begins at home. Just my opinion.

[reasonfreedom]

Mollymouser, I think it may become more severe unfortunately with the excessive state debt in California; 375.5 Billion debt, 352.7 billion revenue, and 506.7 billion spending. How are they going to afford to create a new program that works, let alone keep good pay to teachers for quality purposes. I found out while growing up that my father improved the quality of my education, because he was knowledgeable enough to be able to help me with my homework(science,math, english ect.).

[reasonfreedom]

Jun 12, 2011 13:27:59 GMT -5 SweetVirginia said:

High School drop out rates, and non grad rates are rising at an alarming rate. Those who know me here, know that I am a high school teacher in Southern CA. I teach in a suburban district which is predominately populated by illegal immigrants and their immigrant or American born children. In my experience, throwing more money at this problem will not help. The problem begins at the homes of these students. The parents of these students, for the most part, are poorly educated or not educated at all. The parents actually put very little value on education and instead, see public schools as a place to send their kids to be babysat, and fed each week day. Also, sending their kids to school ensures that they receive their monthly welfare checks. I am constantly being asked to verify students' attendance on welfare forms in order for parents to maintain their social benefits. A large portion of the students in my district are abusing substances as are their parents. I do think we could do more to help students with mental issues and drug problems.

That is not to say that there are not many ineffective teachers who have no business collecting a pay check each month. And I do believe that there needs to be some kind of reform when it comes to determining whether a teacher is actually qualified. I think the tenure system should be changed as well. My school district is undergoing major problems in terms of corruption right now as we speak. This is of course in terms of misappropriation of funds. All of these issues play a role in the break down of CA public education. But I maintain, that the heart of the problem begins at home. Just my opinion.

[Deleted]

Right, Sweet. Same in AZ, although not as bad as CA. Must be terrible to have to teach in such a situation, and you will never get out of it, because you speak Spanish and are Latino, so they will keep you in places like where you are. I can't imagine teaching under those circumstances. Like that Michelle Phifer movie, can't remember the name, where she went in and tried so hard to save the ghetto kids. Won some, lost some.

[billisonboard]

The myth:

Jun 12, 2011 12:43:58 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

Sad, isn't it, Molly? Politicians have been advocating throwing money at this problem for decades, and it's only getting worse. ...

Jun 12, 2011 13:27:59 GMT -5 SweetVirginia said:

High School drop out rates, and non grad rates are rising at an alarming rate...

What is reality? Read the OP:

It found that graduation rates have been improving nationwide in recent years, including those in California. But our gain, up 5.5 percentage points in the 1998-2008 decade...

The "failure" of public education is propaganda meant to destroy it.

[reasonfreedom]

Is that percentage assessed with population increase?

"However, we don't know. We use several methodologies to estimate graduation rates and their counterpart, dropout rates. But hard data are lacking, a statewide computerized student tracking system that's supposed to provide concrete numbers is incomplete, and Gov. Jerry Brown wants to eliminate its appropriation."

So that means that the 5.5 percentage increase could be a myth.

[billisonboard]

Jun 12, 2011 14:31:09 GMT -5 reasonfreedom said:

Is that percentage assessed with population increase?

"However, we don't know. We use several methodologies to estimate graduation rates and their counterpart, dropout rates. But hard data are lacking, a statewide computerized student tracking system that's supposed to provide concrete numbers is incomplete, and Gov. Jerry Brown wants to eliminate its appropriation."

So that means that the 5.5 percentage increase could be a myth.

Without a national database, all numbers are suspect. There has never been a national database, so any attempt to look at drop-out rates is questionable. That being said, the current information is the best information we have ever had.

[❤ mollymouser ❤]

Well, as a Californian, I'm concerned about the 40%+ Latino drop-out rate ~ that cannot bode well for our economy, and more than it does for the future of those young men and women.

[Opti]

It may be a matter of money, but not money spent at the school level. California has lots of migrant workers and I would expect that many of those workers drop out of school and start working in the fields to bring money into the home. Some of the movies I've watched lately, Precious among others, suggest that this may be true for black welfare families as well.

[Deleted]

You can make kids go to school but you can't make them learn. The kids that drop out have very limited futures but as long as we put that responsibility on them, I don't see that much of a problem. It just opens the job market up for those that did study & did develop the means to make a living. Don't forget, we need unskilled labor too.

Maybe that's a good reason to do something about the illegals in this country. They compete with our home grown unskilled labor for jobs.

Sorry, it's not a "funny" topic but I also don't think there's a fix for it.

[handyman2]

There is a long list of issues with current education. from first grade to high school the teachers are no longer allowed to give kids any consequences for disruptive or bad behavior. i know more than one good teacher who has cashed out of teaching because the students rule.
Until this is changed you will see a steady deterioration of the public school system. You can throw all the dollars you want at it and the results will be the same. Good teachers won't stay in the system. one child can disrupt the whole class and all they get is a lecture which impresses them about five seconds. The teachers don't have time under this situation to help the ones that need it because of the disruptions in the class room.
Remember the old movie BLACK BOARD JUNGLE? Well it is here in real life.

[❤ mollymouser ❤]

Jun 12, 2011 17:27:39 GMT -5 @oldtex said:

You can make kids go to school but you can't make them learn. The kids that drop out have very limited futures but as long as we put that responsibility on them, I don't see that much of a problem. It just opens the job market up for those that did study & did develop the means to make a living. Don't forget, we need unskilled labor too.

Maybe that's a good reason to do something about the illegals in this country. They compete with our home grown unskilled labor for jobs.

Sorry, it's not a "funny" topic but I also don't think there's a fix for it.

It just seems unfortunate ... 40 percent seems like an incredibly high drop-out rate for just one group.... but I don't know how to fix it, either.

[SweetVirginia]

Jun 12, 2011 14:05:35 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

The myth:

Jun 12, 2011 12:43:58 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

Sad, isn't it, Molly? Politicians have been advocating throwing money at this problem for decades, and it's only getting worse. ...

Jun 12, 2011 13:27:59 GMT -5 SweetVirginia said:

High School drop out rates, and non grad rates are rising at an alarming rate...

What is reality? Read the OP:

It found that graduation rates have been improving nationwide in recent years, including those in California. But our gain, up 5.5 percentage points in the 1998-2008 decade...

The "failure" of public education is propaganda meant to destroy it.

bill, Im not downing public education. I strongly support public education and I am a public school teacher. I am trying to say that one of the problems for our public school students is their parents' lack of involvement in their children's education and their lack of value for education. I am strictly talking about CA schools and although graduation rates have improved, the drop out rates are still very high in urban and suburban areas.

[SweetVirginia]

Jun 12, 2011 18:34:20 GMT -5 handyman2 said:

There is a long list of issues with current education. from first grade to high school the teachers are no longer allowed to give kids any consequences for disruptive or bad behavior. i know more than one good teacher who has cashed out of teaching because the students rule.
Until this is changed you will see a steady deterioration of the public school system. You can throw all the dollars you want at it and the results will be the same. Good teachers won't stay in the system. one child can disrupt the whole class and all they get is a lecture which impresses them about five seconds. The teachers don't have time under this situation to help the ones that need it because of the disruptions in the class room.
Remember the old movie BLACK BOARD JUNGLE? Well it is here in real life.

This is so true. I work at a continuation high school where all of the kids attending have been kicked out of their comprehensive schools for various reasons but bad behavior being the number one reason. Our counselors, who do the discipline, have given us our unofficial rules regarding referrals to them for behavior reasons. If the student is high on drugs, we are supposed to "look the other way" as long as the student is not being overly disruptive. If the student cusses left and right, we are supposed to "let it go" unless the student directly cusses us out (and we mind it) If they are 30 minutes late, we are supposed to be thankful they showed up at all, and so on...

Luckily, I have learned how to build a rapport with my students that is based on mutual respect which has minimized behavior problems dramatically. My students behave (for the most part) because they feel respected and they actually don't want to disappoint me. I am quite firm but respectful and it has worked well, at least for now.

[pappyjohn99]

Why should they worry about finishing school. All the girls need to do is start dropping babies and they will start getting paid. And if Jose is not getting ahead in his menial job he'll sue somebody and go on a hunger strike demanding a "Code of Ethics" to get pay increases even if he does nothing to improve his lot in life. What we need to do is start charging for an education so so people understand it has value. Nobody respects something they get for free.