"Leave it to the Marines "

[deziloooooo]

I just watched a 1926 Silent on Turner Classics.."Leave it to the Marines " and for you former Marines if you get a chance , see it.

Typical Drill Sgt with new recruits through 4 years enlistment, on Pacific Fleet to China.

Lon Chaney , no make up, played the Drill Sgt and he looked like he could eat nails.

Interesting thing was to see them handle their battle assignment Gun Drill, looked like a 3 " , but guess there, on a warship, cruiser or Battle, not sure, but that was shot authentic on board ship.
They had secondary batteries along the sides of the ships , guns in the open, no defensive shields, and when the large guns went off had to take cover..Broadside drills.

You would get a kick out of the uniforms.

They went in to save Navy Nurses , bandits coming in to town and it was interesting to see the battle launches they used, no Higgins Boats then, large open boats carrying it seems a platoon each hits the beach, how they disembark, form up, march off, I am sure using regular marines for those scenes.

Did they go into battle and engagements wearing scarfs, [ties] , these guys did, and never was taught to fix bayonets marching in column of 4's either. Bayonets, rifle was "03", the long bayonets, worn on the back pack,
Anyway, interesting, entertainment and most important if your like me looking at the technical things from the tents of the times, serving chow and the little things that were authentic.

Even to the habit of carrying eating utensils in their putties..

[bimetalaupt]

Leave it to the Marine 2nd Makin Raid in support of 2nd Marine Raider Battalion (Carlson's Raiders)
THE TWO SHIPS (NARWHAL AND NAUTILUS) SUNK 20,000 TONS OF JAPANESE SHIPS OFF THE COAST OF JAPAN IN 1942. INCLUDING ONE DESTROYER IN JUNE 1942.. BET THIS MADE THE JAPANESE.

8 Aug 1942
USS Nautilus (Lt.Cdr. W.H. Brockman) departs Pearl Harbor for her 2nd war patrol together with USS Argonaut. They were to transport and land marine commandos on Makin in the Gilbert Islands. The convoy arrived off Makin on 16 August; and at 0330hours the next day, the marines began landing. Their rubber rafts were swamped by the sea and most of the outboard motors drowned. The Japanese either forewarned or extraordinarily alert because of the activity on Guadalcanal-gave the Americans a warm reception. Snipers were hidden in the trees and the landing beaches were in front of the Japanese forces instead of behind them as planned. By midnight of 10 August, all but 30 of the troops had been recovered. Both submarines arrived back at Pearl Harbor on 26 August 1942.

YES BUT THE STORY I HEARD WAS YOU COULD HEAR THE 6 INCH 53 CAL FROM BOTH SHIPS DISTORTING THE ISLAND.. THIS WAS NOT THE LAST TIME THE SHIPS USED THIS
UNMATCHED FIRE-POWER TO SAVE THE DAY. THE MARINES DID NOT LOSE, in future events the Narwhal pounded the beaches first and or destroyed airfields and fuel tanks...

I AM NOT SURE HOW TO SAY THIS BUT I HAVE A PHOTO OF THE NARWHAL GOING THROUGH THE LOCKS ON HERE WAY HOME.. THE FLAT TOPS WERE A MESS BUT SHE WAS A PERFECT LADY GOING HOME FOR THE LAST TIME .. TOO BIG, TOO SLOW FOR TOP SIDE AND TOO SLOW TO DIVE THE V-CLASS (NARWHAL AND NAUTILUS) HAD MORE KILLS AND DESTRUCTION WITH THE 6 INCH 53 CAL ON LAND, AIR AND SEE THEN THE WHOLE GERMAN CLASS XXI.The Narwhal was credited with two or three divebamers on Dec 11,1941 -- Pearl Harbour... Ford Island..


FUNNY HOW LITTLE IS SAID ABOUT THE MARINES MOST TRUSTED LANDING SUB SHIP CLASS..CRUISERS...

JUST A THOUGHT,
Bi Metal Au Pt

[privateinvestor]

bimetalaupt Did you know that President Roosevelt's son was a Marine Raider, and was Carlson's XO who did much of the planning for Makin, Guadalcanal, and he commanded a motley bunch, hundreds were young recruits out of boot camp at Parris Island others were Old Salts who were 1st Sgts in Navy Yards, recruiting duty, gunnies who had fought in France in WWI and perennial pvts with disciplinary records a mile long but fought their asses off in Haiti, Nicaragua, Shanghai, Manila, Tienstsin and Peking but Carlson and Roosevelt loved this "Old Breed" and turned them into a bunch of tough raiders with battle stars and decorations also a mile long...

[deziloooooo]

This is the movie I was referring to:

mysteryfile.com/blog/?p=2079

Click on link , picture of Lon Chaney, as the lead, is that he face of a old time enlisted many years in service "Gunney "or not, and even though a silent movie, some corny lines posted, over all, excellent movie, very entertaining and for you former Marines, I strongly suggest seeing if shown, usually turner classics, and do what i did, watch the plot, was ok, not bad for a silent, but cherry pick the uniforms, equipment, the action station on the cruiser or Battle ship{couldn't identify which} I believe the GUN they were assigned to was a 3lb", and watch their action in firing, notice how when large guns fired, I think back then 14", 1926 fleet, 16 " came in WW2. the new Battleships I believe, and also the barges for amphibious landing, how they disembark, form up , march to the sound of the Guns.

Packs worn, putties worn, and as I asked, did they wear ties when going into battle? Possible as it would be a good thing to have as a tourniquet, just had that thought, also as they marched, they were given the order to fix bayonets, carried on their packs , not belts, the long ones for the "03" issued, and fixed them as they marched in unison, all those little thing, think you will get a kick.

I believe they used regaler Marines for those scenes, they look like regulars. Back then possible Marines, defense department , for publicity sake and the hard to get $ rented their people out for such a movie. Think the troops involved would have loved it.



[ Yes I am familiar with Roosevelt as a Marine raider, I thought the unit was formed because Roosevelt senior was impressed with the Brit's commando units who were doing their thing on German occupied Europe with raids and wanted a similar type unit, capability , and senior ranks were not crazy about specialized , flamboyant and non standard units, {same thought s given to the Army Rangers as such in ww2, which were decimated, used not as envisioned , shock troops, though did a great job , till they came upon a German armored division, later in the war..}

[privateinvestor]

bimetalaupt thanx for the article about the USS Submarines . I have several in my family and extended family who served on Subs and need to ask them what they think of ladies now serving in the Submariine Service..

[bimetalaupt]

Jun 5, 2011 12:35:34 GMT -5 @privateinvestor said:

bimetalaupt Did you know that President Roosevelt's son was a Marine Raider, and was Carlson's XO who did much of the planning for Makin, Guadalcanal, and he commanded a motley bunch, hundreds were young recruits out of bimetalauptboot camp at Parris Island others were Old Salts who were 1st Sgts in Navy Yards, recruiting duty, gunnies who had fought in France in WWI and perennial pvts with disciplinary records a mile long but fought their asses off in Haiti, Nicaragua, Shanghai, Manila, Tienstsin and Peking but Carlson and Roosevelt loved this "Old Breed" and turned them into a bunch of tough raiders with battle stars and decorations also a mile long...

He sure took after his Uncle.. TR.. and by the way was Commander of the 4th RaiderBn. He also had an office as President sent him to the Middle East as a military attaché with the British forces. Talking about being presented with a job by his dad whom he had worked for in the Whitehouse.

What I also noted was the Narwhal class of ship only once was used as she was designed: fleet operation...everything else was used her huge size to transport asset to the area of the clandestine raider like operations.. Her 6 inch 53 cal would overpower when needed. She earned 15 battle stars.. She saved many a life and use the firepower to cause enough damage for many other subs to escape without damage on more then one event.

Bi Metal Au Pt

[privateinvestor]

bimetalaupt Teddy Roosevelt had a son who was killed in WWI and a another son who was landed on Normandy in WWII...James Roosevelt Major USMC was awarded the Navy Cross and Silver Star and the Marine Commandant begged him to take a desk job after the Makin Island assault that did have some casualties but he got his Father to tell the Commandant to back off and let major Roosevelt do what he wanted to do which was to lead Marine Raiders....BTW he didn't look like a typical Marine Major since he was tall, bald, skinny and wore thick glasses..but was a very brave man and his troops loved and respected him.. I guess you could say Major Roosevelt looked more like a nerd instead of a tough old raider and those "old salts" who questioned his bravery were mistaken ..

[bimetalaupt]

Carlson's Raiders
LtCol Carlson after the Makin Island Raid

A year later, in 1942, he was placed in command of the Second Marine Raider Battalion with the rank of lieutenant colonel, a new combat organization whose creation he influenced. The organization and discipline of the 2nd Raiders was modeled on that of the Communist Armies he had observed during his time in China. Because of his relationship with President Roosevelt and the president's son, Captain James Roosevelt, a Marine reserve captain who authored a letter to the Commandant of the Marine Corps proposing creation the Raiders, the Marine Corps authorized the creation of the Raiders despite misgivings about Carlson's philosophy.[1][2]

In the military there is a sharp caste-system divide between officers and enlisted personnel, and even experienced noncommissioned officers were expected to be subservient to even the newest, greenest second lieutenant. Carlson's experience in having gone back and forth between officer and enlisted status in both the Army and the Marine Corps convinced him that this was not in the best interests of the service. Carlson saw the Communist approach as superior. Leaders were expected to serve the unit and the fighters they led, not to be served. Responsibility, not privilege, would be the keyword for battalion leadership when the Second Raiders formed up. Using an egalitarian and team-building approach, Carlson promulgated a new way for senior NCOs to mentor junior officers and work with the officers for the betterment of the unit. Even more controversial in concept, Carlson gave his men "ethical indoctrination," designed to "give (his men) conviction through persuasion," describing for each man what he was fighting for and why.[2]
LtCol Carlson is decorated by Adm Chester W. Nimitz, on 30 September 1942.

Of more lasting importance to the Marine Corps, Carlson also changed the organization of his squads, eschewing an eight-man squad dictated by the Marines in favor of a 10-man squad composed of a squad leader and three 3-man "fireteams", each containing a BAR, a Thompson, and an M1 rifle.[2]

Carlson's leadership of the Second Raiders in the Makin Raid, 17 August 1942, earned him a Gold Star in lieu of a second Navy Cross. A second Gold Star was awarded him for heroism and distinguished leadership on Guadalcanal in November and December of that year.

On March 15, 1943, the four raider battalions were placed under the control of the newly created 1st Raider Regiment, commanded by the former commander of the 3rd Raiders, Col. Harry B. Liversedge. A week later Carlson was relieved as commander of the 2nd Raiders by Lt. Col. Alan Shapley, an officer of much more orthodox thinking, and made executive officer of the 1st Raider Regiment. Within a month Shapley had reorganized the 2nd Raiders into a traditional organization, and Liversedge then standardized the organization of the four raider battalions along the lines of the 1st Raider Battalion, although all adopted the 3-fireteam squad-organization concept pioneered by Carlson, which was soon adopted by the Marine Corps as a whole.

In Fact Lt Col Roosevelt out ranked Carlson when the 2nt was formed but joined as a major..( time in Rank.. 1936) but he pulled all kinds of deed for Carlson. I may be wrojng but that is what I read...He also had a lot of top end experience with both US and British High Command.. Like his dad in the Whitehouse..!!!

[privateinvestor]

bimetalaupt since you appear to be a student of Naval History....FYI...We had to study Carlson and Edson in military history classes.....Carlson lived in China and fought with Mao in the 30s and the USMC Headquarters thought he was a communist so Major Roosevelt was assigned to be his XO to make sure Carlson was not a communist which was a bogus rumor floating around in the Marines prior to WWII in Washington DC.. Edson sadly took his own life after WWII because he thought that Harry Truman was about to merge the Marines under the Army in the Pentagon just prior to Korea but the marines performed so well in Korea that Truman and the Dems in congress changed their mind and left the Marines with the Navy..

The Raiders were dis banned in 1944 but when Korea started 1st Recon Company was commissioned and some "ole raiders" were part of the S/NCO cadre.. They did some good things around Pusan when the UN troops were almost pushed off the Korean Peninsula and old 1st Recon Salts like to say they saved the day or the Army's bacon in that war and they may be right...but I am probably biased..

[domeasingold]

You are biased P.I.
But who cares, you old devil dog.
With respect from the 82nd Airborne.
BTW, Heartbreak Ridge was on last night. Clint looks the part of one of those old Salts.

[bimetalaupt]

Jun 6, 2011 6:59:45 GMT -5 @privateinvestor said:

bimetalaupt since you appear to be a student of Naval History....FYI...We had to study Carlson and Edson in military history classes.....Carlson lived in China and fought with Mao in the 30s and the USMC Headquarters thought he was a communist so Major Roosevelt was assigned to be his XO to make sure Carlson was not a communist which was a bogus rumor floating around in the Marines prior to WWII in Washington DC.. Edson sadly took his own life after WWII because he thought that Harry Truman was about to merge the Marines under the Army in the Pentagon just prior to Korea but the marines performed so well in Korea that Truman and the Dems in congress changed their mind and left the Marines with the Navy..

The Raiders were dis banned in 1944 but when Korea started 1st Recon Company was commissioned and some "ole raiders" were part of the S/NCO cadre.. They did some good things around Pusan when the UN troops were almost pushed off the Korean Peninsula and old 1st Recon Salts like to say they saved the day or the Army's bacon in that war and they may be right...but I am probably biased..

P.I.,
Yes, but it was Carlson that took the Idea of the three men /fire-team and eevelop it where all of the rest of the Marines used it too.. 1 CO + three fire teams(m1,bar and Thompson) = 10 men units.. maximum command efficiency!!!= about 5 men....

What got Carlson into hot water was the blending of officers and non-officers as a single unit.. The Marines had the expressed trained officers and they wanted it that way.. No social exchanges between the two was very European vs WWI set of American three.. Officers, Petty officers and non-com men. The blend system was more about Mao. Roosevelt had pushed for the unit after seeing how well the English special teams worked... he was correct.. Much of the units success was due to Roosevelt knowledge of how to get the system to work for you.. Call Dad if need...

As I recall what my father told me about the events.. Roosevelt and Carlson rode in there own ship so if one would be distorted the other landing party would be free and self organised.. The were two independents attaching units back with 6 inch 53 Cal major events changes guns.
Narwhal is the only Sub I have every heard called a ship.. the rest were boats.. My father had seen the Narwhal going through the locks.. She was a great ship with huge firepower.
This was where the "V-Boats" made their mark. NARWHAL became an old hand at the top-secret business of transporting Army scouts and Marines to Japanese occupied islands in preparation for their liberation. The submarine was instrumental in the liberation of the Phillipines, delivering over 100,000 rounds of ammunition to the Phillipino guerillas and evacuating civilians from the islands. NARWHAL also pulled her own weight in the war against the Imperial Japanese Navy, racking up eight kills on enemy ships.

Attachments:

[deziloooooo]

Marines from what i remember reading where the back bone of the Pusan defense, being moved to where the greater danger was in support , then again as the danger of break through by the North indicated.

[privateinvestor]

Ok bimetalaupt good stuff thanx for posting.......good to know we have another history buff here....I taught Military History at the AIT Camp Geiger NC but most of my students had a tough time staying awake in the summer heat and humidity after noon mess..so I made anyone falling asleep stand up....near the end of my lecture the entire class was standing but at least I didn't make them stand at attention.....my field of study was Korea the Forgotten War and most of the kids had not even heard about most of the things that went on in Korea from 1950 t0 1951 ..

[domeasingold]

The "Frozen Chosin".

[privateinvestor]

Jun 9, 2011 12:57:58 GMT -5 domeasingold said:

The "Frozen Chosin".

The USMC has a group of ole veterans from the Frozen Chosin Organization (1st Mar Div) who meet once a year to reunite and swap Sea Stories.

I was a guest of one of these functions in SF and they had guest speakers and a video show of the events on the ground November - December 1950...amazing stuff to say the least..


www.frozenchosin.com/

[deziloooooo]

Back at school in a ROTC class, there was a film of the advance to the rear of that happening and the instructor , a RA Major, when it came to a scene of a man on the top of a tank firing a .50, close up, up one of the mountains, stopped the film and mentioned, in case any one didn't recognize him, after and replaying it we did, that young LT was he, which is unique I believe to actually meet some one who were in those engagements and see them in action.
Impressed the hell out of us I can say, and I asked a Capt[armor], I had become friendly with him about that, true, and he said yep, really unusual to have that kind of film with some one who was parting of.
The major had a copy of the film made for himself, not the whole film but the part he was in and a blow up of him firring the .50.

[bimetalaupt]

Jun 7, 2011 15:52:06 GMT -5 @privateinvestor said:

Ok bimetalaupt good stuff thanx for posting.......good to know we have another history buff here....I taught Military History at the AIT Camp Geiger NC but most of my students had a tough time staying awake in the summer heat and humidity after noon mess..so I made anyone falling asleep stand up....near the end of my lecture the entire class was standing but at least I didn't make them stand at attention.....my field of study was Korea the Forgotten War and most of the kids had not even heard about most of the things that went on in Korea from 1950 t0 1951 ..

PI,
The head of the Military school I went to was a civil War Buff and talked about the advances in the USA due to the war. He also had some funny ideas about History's missing records.. The South destroyed many of the records to keep them out of the hands of the North.. esp. the Marine records. I did not know at the time the South had a Marine Cor . Did you?? I did not see anything about the South's Marines or their Actions etc at the National Civil War Museum at Harrisburg, PA.


Bi Metal Au Pt

[privateinvestor]

]


Yes...bimeltaulpt good question...Let me give you my best short answer ... the Confederates had a Marine Corps during the Civil War it was called the Confederate States Marine Corps and it included @ 19 officers and a few hundred enlisted who went South and joined the Confederate States Marine Corps. Most served on board ships of the Confederate Navy..Also desertions during the final stages of the war were very high because all the Confederate Services suffered such disloyalties.. My guess is that USMC Historians don't like to include much about the Confederate States Marine Corps since the USMC only had @3300 officers and men during the Civil War, and the Confederate States Marine Corps had only @350 officers and men...with most being causalities in that bloody war between the states..

But you have piqued my curiosity and need to do some more research about the Confederate States Marine Corps and what I posted is what little I recall about this subject.

During the later battles of the Civil War desertions were so high the Union was forced to conscript Irish Immigrants from New York and Massachusetts to serve but many refused and rioted ...My great grand father was one of these protesters who went back to Ireland rather than be drafted or conscripted into the Union Army.. It was not because he opposed slavery but because Irish Immigrants were used as canon fodder in many of the battles toward the end of the war. So he was a draft dodger.. family history is fascinating stuff.