Thinking of changing course of action...

[Deleted]

May 29, 2011 15:44:05 GMT -5 zibazinski said:

My DS does not have a washer/dryer at his apt but he farms it out to a laundry and it is so worth it. Don't stress DW with going to a laundromat or yourself.

We were thinking about that but we have to look into the costs
Her cousin and one of our best friend that lives in NYC both do that and they told us they are really happy with it because
a) don't have to sit at a laundremat
b) drop it off and pick it up
c) already nicely folded and taken care off.

So we will have to look around and see if the costs makes it worth it. But so far that is the only downside to the new apartment.

[zibazinski]

Lookie, SMITE buttons!!! Costs DS about 30 bucks every 2 weeks and he says it is SO worth it.

[Deleted]

May 29, 2011 15:59:39 GMT -5 zibazinski said:

Lookie, SMITE buttons!!! Costs DS about 30 bucks every 2 weeks and he says it is SO worth it.

Thanks, we will look at the laundremats around ;D ;D

I think not having to go to a laundromat will definitely make both our lives easier.

[midjd]

I will echo everyone who has said not to reduce your 401(k) contributions to 6%... MAYBE 15-20% if you can constructively use the money elsewhere. Money you contribute now has much longer to increase before retirement (the amount invested doubles about every 7 years, right Phil?) You'll end up throwing twice as much $ into your 401(k)s to get the same result if you wait another few years to resume contributions at your current rate. Plus, you'll lose the tax benefits - a dollar contributed to a 401(k) only ends up costing you about $0.75 or $0.80.

I can understand wanting to pay down your debt and buy a house, but it shouldn't be at the expense of your retirement. Surely there are some other things in your budget you can cut?

[Deleted]

cawiau, maybe I missed it, but what made you choose to contribute 25%? Was it because that's what it takes to reach a particular goal you've set, or is it just a number you happened to pick?

[steph08]

Cawiau - didn't you just say you were going to start trying for children in two years or so? So even if you have plans to raise that 6% back up to 25%, the additional expenses of daycare or your want of a larger car is going to make you keep pushing it off. I do it now, and I don't have any kids or debt besides a mortgage! If you are up that high already, just leave it be!

[Deleted]

May 29, 2011 19:35:53 GMT -5 @pinkcshmere said:

cawiau, maybe I missed it, but what made you choose to contribute 25%? Was it because that's what it takes to reach a particular goal you've set, or is it just a number you happened to pick?

25% is the maximum that my job will allow me to contribute to their 401K; so we just went 25% for both of us.

My wife company has no such restrictions, so we thinking about increase her contributions in september depending on the raise she gets.

[Deleted]

Maybe your wife's raise is the money to divert for other purposes. Stick to the 25% now that you are more or less used to it. Use half of her raise to accelerate repayment on the CC and the other half to buy her shoes and pretty things that will keep you all from running the CC back up?

[Deleted]

May 29, 2011 19:51:51 GMT -5 steph08 said:

Cawiau - didn't you just say you were going to start trying for children in two years or so? So even if you have plans to raise that 6% back up to 25%, the additional expenses of daycare or your want of a larger car is going to make you keep pushing it off. I do it now, and I don't have any kids or debt besides a mortgage! If you are up that high already, just leave it be!

Yes we have been talking about starting to try getting pregnant in 2-3 years; so if we get lucky and all the stars are aligned we might have 2 little cawiau's running around by the time I turn 30 ;D ;D

Which is why we are motivated to get ride of all consumer debt within the next 2 years.

[Deleted]

May 29, 2011 20:09:34 GMT -5 @craftysarah said:

Maybe your wife's raise is the money to divert for other purposes. Stick to the 25% now that you are more or less used to it. Use half of her raise to accelerate repayment on the CC and the other half to buy her shoes and pretty things that will keep you all from running the CC back up?

My review is due next week (6/2/11) and if all goes well (knock on wood) I might get a raise. We were thinking about using my raise to do that since I can only contribute 25% to 401K.

And depending on the raise/promotion she gets in september we might be able to max her 401K. I will only be able to max mine when I make $66,000 or more if I stay with my current company.

So if I get a raise next week, thechnically my wife gets a raise and this way she will have no issue raising her 401K comes september ;D

[8 Bit WWBG]

...:::"Also she is using the money she received for her birthday to redecorate as she pleases, so not going to cost us a dime.":::...

I want you to read this sentence over and over and over and over and over until it clicks.

Cawiau I too have suffered with a duality over money management. One minute its "I hate being in debt, remorse, remorse" and the next minute its "so where do you want to eat tonight".

There is one thing that will fix your finances. It is NOT creative accounting. It is NOT fine tuning every penny. It is NOT re-slicing the pie slightly differently to make one slice look larger at any given time.

It is making the active choice, each time you are presented with a choice, to choose the action that brings your goal CLOSER rather than farther.

Your wife got a birthday gift. I know its not sexy or fun to use that to pay down CCs. But the way she handled her money, IMO, shows you EXACTLY how she will deal with having all that extra cash flowing through her fingers. It will drive her CRAZY.

You know what they say about crash diets. The second those cards are paid off, she is going to want to celebrate. She is going to want a "reward" for "being good".

Don't do it! You fought so hard to get those contributions up to 25%.

ETA: and you are TOTALLY getting laundry service, or laundry will be your chore. There is no way she is going to sit at a laundromat.

[Deleted]

May 29, 2011 21:28:28 GMT -5 8 Bit WWBG said:

...:::"Also she is using the money she received for her birthday to redecorate as she pleases, so not going to cost us a dime.":::...

I want you to read this sentence over and over and over and over and over until it clicks.

Cawiau I too have suffered with a duality over money management. One minute its "I hate being in debt, remorse, remorse" and the next minute its "so where do you want to eat tonight".

There is one thing that will fix your finances. It is NOT creative accounting. It is NOT fine tuning every penny. It is NOT re-slicing the pie slightly differently to make one slice look larger at any given time.

It is making the active choice, each time you are presented with a choice, to choose the action that brings your goal CLOSER rather than farther..

WWBG here is how the conversation went when she informed on how she intended to spend her money :

Me: WTF? We moved twice in the past 3 years and you spent money each time decorating/designing each apartment. What else do you need? Don't you have enough crap?

Her: Why do you care? I am using my birthday money.

Me: When I got my money for my birthday (our birthdays are less than 2 weeks apart) I paid bills with it and put some towards the new apartment expenses. We don't have your/mine anymore, it's our money.

Her: I did not tell you to do that, you choose to do that. You could have spent it anyway you want. I choose/want to use my money to decorate the new apartment.

And that was it and I realized she was right. I chose the past two years to put everything I got as monetary gift towards debt/savings, my wife saw/sees it as money she got to spend as she pleases. I think I even started a thread about that on the old board titled : Your Money, My money, Our Money when it first became an issue after we got married.

We are both right and I can't force her to see it my way, and she can't force me to spend money because there is no crap I need at this point. So it's not a battle I care nor willing to take on at this time, all I see is that is not coming out of our account and she is happy because she gets to spend $500-$750 or so decorating the new place and buying more crap.

She's happy she gets to do that, I am happy she is not spending any of "our" money to do so. WIN-WIN ;D ;D

[runewell]

I think a compromise on retirement saving would be good (maybe 15% instead of 6% or 25%) in order to pay off consumer debt. I would not rush to get a house though. Home ownership is nice but I think it is overrated and probably not the equity panacea people thought it was 5-10 years ago. I bought a house for $109 and seven years later sold it for $200 and six years later it's worth $140. OK I got lucky. But a gain of <30% over 13 years is not good. Of course stock gains weren't that great over the same period. Certainly I would save aggressively to have a large EF / house down payment but I would consider having the house purchase futher down the road.

[zibazinski]

Gee, you know what I am getting for MY birthday? Outdoor dishes and Adirondack chairs for our new place. Real romantic but guess what? They are needs for the new place and a good excuse for DF to get me something we both need and will enjoy. If I whined and said I want fancy this or that, he'd get it for me but that is the actions of a child not an adult with a goal in mind which is to get this place the way we both want it. You two are so not on the same page that it hurts just to read it. For some reason you keep making excuses for her after you throw her under the bus. Because we are older we see the writing on the wall. She should have been the first person to say "yeehaw, we can put an extra 500 on a cc," but NO, she can piss away MORE money on MORE crap-like you don't have enough already, instead. She gets to act like a child while you get to be the parent. What a relationship.

[zibazinski]

To me there's no amount of great sex that would make me tolerate someone so spoiled and self-centered.

[endofera]

I am having a little trouble with this:

she is using the money she received for her birthday to redecorate

being so far off from this:

Outdoor dishes and Adirondack chairs for our new place.

that one is an irresponsible spoiled purchase and one is a responsible "need". Both are moving into new places both are using their birthday money. We don't know specifically what c's wife bought. Maybe indoor dishes and indoor chairs.

[achelois]

cawiau:

The lights are flashing and the alarms are ringing and you are NOT taking any notice: you guys have really, really big spending problems. You are thinking about downgrading your saving/investing, but not the spending.

That is NUTS, financially speaking.

Cut down the $200 weekend spending every week, cut out some of the vacations, some of the gifts, some of the clothes buying, some of the eating out during the week.

You two make decent money but absolutely NOT enough to spend the way you are spending. You hemorrhage money on crap. I make almost twice what you two make, but cannot afford the lifestyle you guys have--guess what, you cannot afford it either. You have credit card debt and your answer is to cut saving, not spending?

You know we all want the best for you (I hope), but you need to WAKE UP. It is soooooo frustrating to see the train wreck that is coming and not be able to get your attention.

The solution is very simple--cut the damn SPENDING.

I know it is frustrating for you also. You are trying to get the wife on board and cannot. When/if you have a house and kids, you are going to end up with no saving whatsoever unless something changes.

I am ambivalent about your situation: sometimes I see you as really trying to save and change, but then other times I think you truly enjoy all the spending (you cave in a lot when your wife spends) and can relieve yourself of any complicity in the spending by blaming your wife.

I hope you two can get it together, you are very likable and remind me in some ways of my son, so I am hoping things will go well for you.

[busymom]

Cawaiu, my DH & I worked 2 jobs in the years before we had kids to save up quickly for a big down payment on our first house. Since you don't have any kids yet, could that be an option for you? Yea, I know, it's not a lot of fun since you're not going to be home much, but the payback of getting our home earlier than we thought we'd be able to do it was VERY motivating!!

AND, the bonus was, after working 2 jobs we were too tired to go out & spend the extra money!!!!

[Deleted]

The real advice has already been given, so....

What is the 30 year earning potential of your wife? Have you thought about upgrading?

[dancinmama]

May 29, 2011 22:17:21 GMT -5 TheHaitian said:

Me: When I got my money for my birthday (our birthdays are less than 2 weeks apart) I paid bills with it and put some towards the new apartment expenses. We don't have your/mine anymore, it's our money.

Her: I did not tell you to do that, you choose to do that. You could have spent it anyway you want. I choose/want to use my money to decorate the new apartment.

And that was it and I realized she was right. I chose the past two years to put everything I got as monetary gift towards debt/savings, my wife saw/sees it as money she got to spend as she pleases. I think I even started a thread about that on the old board titled : Your Money, My money, Our Money when it first became an issue after we got married.

We are both right and I can't force her to see it my way, and she can't force me to spend money because there is no crap I need at this point. So it's not a battle I care nor willing to take on at this time, all I see is that is not coming out of our account and she is happy because she gets to spend $500-$750 or so decorating the new place and buying more crap.

She's happy she gets to do that, I am happy she is not spending any of "our" money to do so. WIN-WIN ;D ;D

cawiau: Based on your post, it seems like you are going to be the one who makes money sacrifices your entire life while trying to appease your wife's spending desires. She's right and you're right, it's her birthday money - but the two of you are supposed to be a team in EVERY way and when it comes to money, that simply is not the case. You made a sacrifice for the sake of your future together; she is not concerned and is still constantly living in the here and now. That's $500-$750 that could go toward the down payment of your first home!!

I don't mean to sound harsh, but it probably is a VERY GOOD THING that you are not planning on even trying to have kids for 2-3 years. This money thing is something that you REALLY need to work out before you start bringing children into the picture. You're young and energetic right now, but years and years of this money struggle with DW is going to wear on you. Ongoing money issues is the #1 reason for divorce - which can destroy YOU financially if you have had children AND if your retirement accounts are not on equal footing.

[Deleted]

gee, I'm glad somebody pointed this stuff out. Again. But this time without mincing words.

Cawiau, you seem to me to positively obsess over money, planning what to do with it, changing the plan, rearranging the plan, adjusting the plan, planning the plan...Oy!

You talk to us about it, ask us our opinions, ask for our suggestions, but obviously what you really need to do is to have The Money Talk with your wife and for the two of you to lay out your common goals and a timeline to reach them.

Once that's been done, quit fiddling with the plan. Stick to it come hell or high water.

If she's not on board, it just ain't gonna happen, and no amount of adjusting is gonna change that.

There is one sure way to accumulate money...spend less!!!!

[dancinmama]

May 30, 2011 8:14:32 GMT -5 achelois said:

I know it is frustrating for you also. You are trying to get the wife on board and cannot. When/if you have a house and kids, you are going to end up with no saving whatsoever unless something changes.

I am ambivalent about your situation: sometimes I see you as really trying to save and change, but then other times I think you truly enjoy all the spending (you cave in a lot when your wife spends) and can relieve yourself of any complicity in the spending by blaming your wife.

cawiau: I don't know you at all, but I really like what you are doing and are trying to do and the fact that you are constantly trying to figure out a way to get from here to there; but achelois makes some good points. If the two of you cannot get a handle on this in the next few months or so (being on the same page financially), PLEASE go see a counselor (either marriage or financial or both) BEFORE you have kids. It sounds like a co-dependency type of situation is developing or has already developed. Over the long haul, this will make for a very unhappy life together.

[telephus44]

I really want to be debt free and have a down payment on a house. I could cut back on eating out, spending $200 each weekend, and not spend $750 decorating my new apartment OR I could drastically reduce the contributions to my 401K. What should I do?

Think about it like that.





I totally agree with everyone else that you have to work on the spending component. You can't just keep playing with numbers on a spreadsheet and it will magically work out. You actually have to DO something - in your case, cut the spending. And I also agree with the other posters that you need to stop blaming your wife. Plenty of the spending is you, too.

[Deleted]

I asked where the 25% came from because cawiau doesn't really seem comfortable with it. He's been toying with the idea of lowering it on various threads, without coming out and saying that's what he wants to do.

I'm not against saving aggressively for retirement when you're in your 20's. But it's hard to stick with something long-term when you haven't really bought into why you're doing it. Just because 25% is the max you can contribute that doesn't necessarily make it the only/best choice best for you, your wife, and your lives together.

IOW, if it takes 25% to reach a specific goal of yours, fine. But if you can contribute less, put the difference to work somewhere else and still be ok for the future, I think that's ok too. Is whatever you're giving up now by contributing the max worth it to you? I don't think so because you keep questioning it. The flip side is..... is giving up whatever you could gain in the future worth decreasing the contributions now?

I think I confused myself, but I hope you know what I mean lol. If you can figure out what I meant, only you and DW can decide the answer(s). You 2 must find a balance that works for both of you.

Maybe you have a difficult time convincing DW sometimes because YOU aren't really convinced yourself. You may be convinced that something ideally is the best thing to do and you want to do it, but you're not really convinced that it's what's best for you so it's harder to convice someone else of something you yourself aren't completely sure about. Does that make sense?

But I think going from 25% to 6% is far too drastic.

[daylight]

I really enjoy your threads, so I hope you take all the advice that has been given to heart.

Admittedly, I have not even been reading the forum for the past month or so (too much work and too much RL , so I am unaware of any other ongoing issue you and Mrs. Cawiau had, but...

A wise man said to me once that every person has to make peace with its own darker side. If you are too attracted to someone who is your complete opposite then you have not integrated that darker part of yourself too well. And being with your complete opposite might not even be the answer.

Another poster observed that you enjoy spending a lot, I have not noticed it, but more due to lack of time and attention...it could be such an unintegrated trait of yours.

I am not that much older, but I, too, see the writings on the wall.

It is not right that you keep making (financial) sacrifices to your relationship while all your wife cares about is spending. You said she needed to spend her birthday money in order to compromise with the move. Well...if people are on the same page in a marriage (not just financially, but generally), then the wife does not need to spend that extra cash in that situation. Your wife may have been right on some philosophical level in your conversation, but to me it shows that you practically throw sacrifices to the wind. As Phil pointed out, you will get older, you will get more tired, you will get once eventually tired of making unreturned sacrifices.

Please make sure you go to counselling before you start trying for a kid. Having kids generally enhances these problems.

And do not lower your contribution. You won't go back to spending less (and it is a singular you, not a plural). Good luck!

[daylight]

This message has been deleted. Double post.

[Wisconsin Beth]

I can't wrap my head around an adult getting $500-$750 in b-day money. I get a check for $30 from my parents and a gift from my ILs. DH is expected to produce dinner and flowers, other gifts are optional. Some years the money goes into the joint checking account, some years I spend it on me or on stuff we need or that I want.

And Cawiau, I really appreciate your threads as they've helped me see some of the disconnects between DH and myself regarding money. I still haven't addressed them but at least I know they're there and I'm not going to blithely waltz into them anymore...

[8 Bit WWBG]

...:::"Her: I did not tell you to do that, you choose to do that. You could have spent it anyway you want. I choose/want to use my money to decorate the new apartment.":::...

DF said something like this only a few times before learning her lesson. This is the kind of stuff that makes me see RED. I mean I get blinded with rage. This attitude represents women at their most selfish and disgusting, and I hope the women that use this logic are really happy with whatever it gets them in the short term, because it will cost them MANY exponents in the long term.

My response would be a very matter of fact "oh, thats how it is? OK". And see if I EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER gave up something that is "mine" for "us" again. I mean seriously, they benefit from our generosity, and then throw it in our face?

There is only one lesson you can learn, and its exactly what she said: you were stupid for using your money for anyone but yourself. NEVER make that mistake again.

I mean seriously, I can't say enough bad things about this. DF has stopped doing this since she realized the kind of fury that reaction would incite in me. The whole "well I guess you are a better person" is a BIG copout, and reeks of disrespect. And again, the only lesson it can teach you is that being a better person is stupid.

If I were you and was in this exact situation, not only would I make it clear that I would never make the mistake of sharing "my" money in a way that helped her. I would inform her that I will be making sure to stop putting myself last, and that every piece of garbage she brings into the house under the guise of that ridiculously selfish view would be fodder for my ridicule and contempt now and forever. I would dredge this up during every money fight now and forever.

I need a breather before I read the rest. I have very healthy blood pressure (amazingly) but this stuff can't be good for me.

[swamp]

May 31, 2011 9:33:09 GMT -5 8 Bit WWBG said:

This is the kind of stuff that makes me see RED. I mean I get blinded with rage. This attitude represents women at their most selfish and disgusting, and I hope the women that use this logic are really happy with whatever it gets them in the short term, because it will cost them MANY exponents in the long term.

Calm down. Women haven't don't have a monopoly on immature and selfish behavior, plenty of men do it too. I don't think it's necessary to talk about DH's "finest" moments, but he's had them. I'm sure I have too.

[giramomma]

I'd also like to add that moving is not an emergency expense.

We moved over a year ago. We splurged and hired a moving company. That cost did not come out of our emergency fund. Moving isn't an emergency. You had to plan for moving, right? You didn't move because you came home and you had no place to live.

Here are some emergencies:
Medical Bills from a car accident that wasn't your fault
Your child needing immediate hospitalization
Your 1 year old heater breaking at 2 am on a Sunday in January
A tornado, fire, hurricane made your house unlivable.


I wish you guys would set up a true emergency fund and a way of saving for short-medium term needs. These are two separate issues that you are confusing.

I know you want to have kids, but, maybe you really should consider waiting for longer. I don't see how you guys can afford them, and I don't see you guys willingly make choices that promote being debt free so you can.

I think you both like your current situation too much to experience any short term negative consequence of financial change. So, why are you trying to devise plans to change, when you and your wife don't have intentions to do so?