Do some think Israel is a poor innocent victim

[ugonow]

Or is it just religion/ politics ? I am in favor of helping Israel as they are an important ally with common interests. But to suggest they are doing all they can for a peacefull agreement and are innocent victims is absurd,imo. Contrary to what Huck infered ,the Bible really does not provide proof as to who legally owns the land.IMO, Israel takes us and our billions in aid for granted and expects us to agree with every move they make..Obama is correct to want them to do their part.

[Politically_Incorrect12]

To suggest they should just roll over is absurd as well.

[ugonow]

No arguement from me on that.

[deziloooooo]

Israels leaders , who ever they are , left, right, the one point they agree on is the safety of the State, the safety of their citizens..
All leaders of States and Country's have that on their agenda but in Israels case , it is a bit more front and center then most countries.
From their past history, since the final Temple destruction, the history of negativism against these people has been there and actively acted on, from the dispersal of the populace from the area of their former nation to the expulsion from major powers of the time to the Pograms of the Tzar's to the implementation of the "Final Solution " that ended in the life time of so many of us who are still here today.
It is a fact that there are dangers faced by these people that others do not face in such reality.

Because of these real concerns, where their State is located, who their neighbors are and their real feeling toward these people and the State, what to many, their doings,

"But to suggest they are doing all they can for a peaceful agreement and are innocent victims is absurd,"

while it appears not, to them, the leaders of the State, but to some outsiders , they are not, there are reasons , real ones for their actions.

They are in a unique spot have real concerns that are real, but even with those concerns, many feel that some accommodation has to be attempted to see if the two major parties in this area, Israeli and Palestinians, can come to a agreement that will allow one of the group to enjoy their rights to a self sustaining State with all the aspirations that that means in that context of a nation for themselves, yet also guarantee the security of the small State that is at the heart of this antagonism in this area and see if it is possible to survive as two independent states side by side.

Accommodations are going to have to be made, major concessions are going to have to be made by all parties, and some pain and trepidation will be the result.
It's not as if all this is new. Reams of proposals have been presented , put on paper. I just skimmed through one from 2002 on proposals of ,..and just the part dealing with "Territory " is involved and so complicated and its like a quadruple paragraph just on that aspect, and there are pages more to read.

The POTUS speech this week was another attempt to get these two parties to try again, with open minds as he says, the status quo is not viable, as much as one party may think it is, and the danger is to continue along that route.

IMHO to completely disregard his feelings, ideas , thoughts, suggestions, on that and just dismiss out of hand, as so many here are doing is lack of maturity, reasoning and understanding the situation.
Just more yada , yada, much of it because of who the POTUS is actually, the same old , same old concerning him personally, , to bad about that, and much also because to understand the real problems here, just to much work thus better to pick up the sound bytes and run with them, and yadda, yadda all the way home.

[jkapp]

What really amazes me on this whole fiasco in that region is the UN created the problem, and is now completely silent on it. So they struck a match to that wildfire and are now just content on watching it burn?

[Deleted]

I already have about 10,000 (exaggeration) comments on other Israel threads.. just saying...

[Deleted]

Guys-- try to catch the FOX 9/11 special today. Special investigation report. Really good. On now in AZ.

[henryclay]

Do some think Israel is a poor innocent victim

I do. Slam dunk. To say Israel is in any way responsible for the interminable attacks it has endured is like saying the United States is responsible for its illegal immigration problem.

[deziloooooo]

May 21, 2011 14:06:18 GMT -5 henryclay said:

Do some think Israel is a poor innocent victim

I do. Slam dunk. To say Israel is in any way responsible for the interminable attacks it has endured is like saying the United States is responsible for its illegal immigration problem.

If you have found yourself living in a refugee camp for 50 years or more and see no way out, if you see Palestinian land expropriated by the State of Israel, I am not referring to land left by the family in 1948, but since Israel conquered the West Bank, Jeruselum, land you and your predessesores have been on for generations, given over to israeli settlers, if you have been unnecessary hassled by some young kid with a weapon, dissed, abused who has been called up for his active duty as you wait to pass from A to B , for no reason, just because he can get away with it, if you have seen family, friends just aquaintenses killed or seriously maimed, not as combatents but by mistaken fire, it happens, collateral damage, the damage radius of some munitions will surprise you, yes I know bad guys might have been there too, or not, just thought there is enough at times, , and on and on..you feel what is happening is a way to nowhere...I can see some real anger , frustration there.

[henryclay]

"........... I can see some real anger , frustration there. .........."

Me, too, and until there comes a time that Israel has universal assurances that no one, , , no one, , , is dedicated to their irradication, I'm glad to see them FINALLY digging their heels in.

[deziloooooo]

May 21, 2011 16:37:25 GMT -5 henryclay said:

"........... I can see some real anger , frustration there. .........."

Me, too, and until there comes a time that Israel has universal assurances that no one, , , no one, , , is dedicated to their irradication, I'm glad to see them FINALLY digging their heels in.

"I can see some real anger , frustration there" Whjo? Me??? Naaa

Some young Palastinian some where...oh yeah, there ya got it.

"To say Israel is in any way responsible for the interminable attacks "

Just pointing out how possible some Palastinians might feel Henry, a few of the resons...

"until there comes a time that Israel has universal assurances that no one, , , no one, , , is dedicated to their irradication,"

Most likely will never happen till the Messiah, the one THEY are waiting for shows up..and it's been a looooong time waiting on that one. so...sometiimes one has to take a chance, at least sit down and shmooze a bit, eat some grapes, some cheese, a bit of tea, a piece of fruit...and hear what the other guy has to say...some times amazing things happen that way.

[henryclay]

desi says

. . . . sometimes one has to take a chance, at least sit down and shmooze a bit, eat some grapes, some cheese, a bit of tea, a piece of fruit...and hear what the other guy has to say..

Having for so long repeatedly taken chances and sat down to schmooze and eat cheese and drink tea, only to dodge grenades and rocks and rockets and AK47 bullets, and having heard during it all how they are going to be annihilated or pushed into the sea, I believe, if Netanyahu is any example, the Israelis would now like the other guy to say something new.

I also think if the other guy said something simple, like, "Okay Kings X, you can stay. We won't try to kill you any more, and we'll tell others others to stop trying to kill you, too," would be a good starting place.

[deziloooooo]

Any face to face saying anything is a start, I'll take it, won't you?

[henryclay]

It's not my decision. It's the Israeli's decision, and I believe they have already made it.

Ans as for accepting decisions, why won't YOU accept theirs?

[ugonow]

I do. Slam dunk. To say Israel is in any way responsible for the interminable attacks it has endured is like saying the United States is responsible for its illegal immigration problem.

So you feel the US offering illegals free healthcare,schooling and jobs in no way influences the immigration problem?

[ugonow]

It's not my decision. It's the Israeli's decision, and I believe they have already made it.

Ans as for accepting decisions, why won't YOU accept theirs?

?------------------"Lieberman: U.S. to accept any Israeli policy decision

By Lily Galili and Barak Ravid, Haaretz Correspondents


The Obama Administration will put forth new peace initiatives only if Israel wants it to, said Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman in his first comprehensive interview on foreign policy since taking office.

"Believe me, America accepts all our decisions," Lieberman told the Russian daily Moskovskiy Komosolets.

Lieberman granted his first major interview to Alexander Rosensaft, the Israel correspondent of one of the oldest Russian dailies, not to an Israeli newspaper. The role of Israel is to "bring the U.S. and Russia closer," he declared.

During the interview, Lieberman said Iran is not Israel's biggest strategic threat; rather, Afghanistan and Pakistan are.

This comes after years of Lieberman warning about the growing Iranian threat. Now, he has dropped Tehran to number two, with Iraq coming third. "

[deziloooooo]

I believe this is the Israeli in a leadership position who believes the West Bank is Israeli,. Samaria, Judea, given to Israel by the Lord.

His solution is to remove all Palestinians from the Wast Bank. , same toward Israeli Arabs, citizens, to another Arab land.

[Deleted]

But to suggest they are doing all they can for a peacefull agreement and are innocent victims is absurd,imo

Israel has never been about touchy feely stuff with their neighbors. Their country has survived by fighting tooth & nail with their neighbors & making it impractical for them to believe that they would win a war with Israel. Why in the world would they give back land that they had won in a war without some serious concessions? (Besides the land might have military strategic value). To give it up without something concrete would be stupid. To give it up because some "temporary" President suggests it would not only be political suicide but would just be dumb on a lot of levels.

[ed1066]

If you support the Palestinian "cause", you support this:

Hamas has been looking forward to implement Allah’s promise whatever time it might take. The prophet, prayer and peace be upon him, said: The time will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews (and kill them); until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: O Muslim! there is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him!

And this:

[Peace] initiatives, the so-called peaceful solutions, and the international conferences to resolve the Palestinian problem, are all contrary to the beliefs of the Islamic Resistance Movement (Hamas).

www.thejerusalemfund.org/www.thej....ts/charter.html

[jkapp]

May 21, 2011 19:51:01 GMT -5 deziloooooo said:

Any face to face saying anything is a start, I'll take it, won't you?

ANd talking with a Palestinian "leader" that has ZERO control over the people that he "governs" (and who attack Israel constantly) will accomplish what exactly?

[deziloooooo]

May 22, 2011 12:09:22 GMT -5 jkapp said:

May 21, 2011 19:51:01 GMT -5 deziloooooo said:

Any face to face saying anything is a start, I'll take it, won't you?

ANd talking with a Palestinian "leader" that has ZERO control over the people that he "governs" (and who attack Israel constantly) will accomplish what exactly?

Jkapp lets be honest here, otherwise why bother posting.

Abbas , Fatah, their PM, has been very careful in it's relationship with Israel. They have a very strong police presence in the West Bank, have NOT been attacking Israel, he does not believe in that, why he broke from the PLO, and has kept to that stance.

Is he in love with the Zionist in Israel or Israels leadership?
Of course not, any more then Natanahju loves the Palestinians, but between him self and the PM , the West bank has been growing in Jobs, Industry, social services. The agencies of a State have been set up, unemployment , while still high, about 18 % , is low compared to othjer nations in the area, see Egypt, and the West Bank has and is prosperouse, compared to other States in the region, see Jordan and Egypt.
Many Palestinians, and Hamas members, up to the merging of interests have been jailed, that is a fact.

In fact many West Bank Palestinians are not happy with the security forces, and heavy handed actions of both the PA or those in Gaza, with the same unhappiness directed at the heavy handed security actions coming from Hamas.

It is the young of both sides who are demanding something new, and forcing the leadership of both the PA and Hamas to give in and come to this agreement.

If they ever do sit down , come to a settlement, it will be on the heads of the leaders of the Palestinians , who ever they are, remeber new elections in Octyoner for the West bank and Gaza, to keep their people under control and to forcible crack down on those who don't go along with the agreement that will be signed, other wise the Israeli's will take actions against them, signed treaty or not.

This is a responsible for all countrys, governments, no private armies allowed that usurp the power of the State and the elected representatives.

Israel did tyhat at the beginning of the origins of their State back in 1948, crushing , finally by force, Jews fighting Jews, only three years after the end of that War that almost destroyed all Jewry, but crush Begin and the Irgun and the stern gang they did, and if you think that was just a little thing, not the tramatic event it was, you don't understand the history of the area ir the people.

In the case of the Palastinians, if needed , the same thing may have to be done, by them, not out side forces.

All States have a right to defend themselves and if a treaty is signed, a State set up for the Palestinians, and attacks against Israel continue, that is a act of War, and the one attacked, Israel in this case, as any State , will defend themselves unless to weak to do so, and in this, being to weak to respond, will not be the case.