AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on May 10, 2011 17:45:35 GMT -5
www.nytimes.com/2011/05/10/opinion/10brooks.html This is a horrifying observation to me. These men are living off the proceeds of someone else's labor. This cries out for reform- especially welfare reform, but also for reductions in government red tape. Brooks writes, Oh, but it CAN be addressed by reducing the size of government. For starters, when you feminize the workplace-- and look, I am heading out for the night and so I'm trying to keep this brief-- either you understand this, or you don't-- and make it hostile to the aggressive, competitive, results-driven nature of men-- men are disinclined to enter that environment. It was a big part of my own motivation for leaving the cubicle. The work itself was challenging, and I've never actually had a job I truly hated in terms of the work, but the needling little bullshit rules, regulations, and details that have nothing to do with the performance of my duties did sort of nag at me and bother me. Then you take rules and regulations-- a permit for this, a license for that, a registration for that thing, a report for this, fees and taxes for all of it-- and you have a massive government infrastructure that serves almost purely to deter real productivity. Got an idea-- better get a lawyer. Better see if it's legal. Better see if you need a permit, a license, or file some shit with some government office somewhere. Take the deterrent, and sprinkle in a little stimulus cash- an extra year of unemployment checks, a government benefit here and there-- and of course you're going to deter men from working. This is by design, by the way. Some of us are not fooled- and the real reason a lot of us are despised by the left is that we find ways around the obstacles placed in our paths. So, it's crap that the reduction of government wouldn't help.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on May 10, 2011 18:02:18 GMT -5
Are they? Some may have retired early. Some may not have to "get up and go to work", but may work from home, or (as you have said is true of you) work on the business rather than at the business. Not enough information to know.
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cme1201
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Post by cme1201 on May 10, 2011 18:07:57 GMT -5
palmbeachpaul said: "This is a horrifying observation to me. These men are living off the proceeds of someone else's labor. This cries out for reform- especially welfare reform, but also for reductions in government red tape."
How many of these men are stay at home fathers? It's something that I personally wish I could do. My wife stayed home the 1st nine years of my oldest child's life, the bonds that she has with the three children I can never have because of the time I gave giving her that opportunity.
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chiver78
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Post by chiver78 on May 10, 2011 18:16:25 GMT -5
palmbeachpaul said: "This is a horrifying observation to me. These men are living off the proceeds of someone else's labor. This cries out for reform- especially welfare reform, but also for reductions in government red tape." How many of these men are stay at home fathers? It's something that I personally wish I could do. My wife stayed home the 1st nine years of my oldest child's life, the bonds that she has with the three children I can never have because of the time I gave giving her that opportunity. this was the first thought that popped into my head as I was reading the OP. there is absolutely not enough information in that article to come to a meaningful conclusion.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on May 10, 2011 18:16:49 GMT -5
I don't see this as a huge problem. Just because these men aren't working doesn't mean they're on welfare or not contributing to society. Besides, I'm sure the number of women in the labor force in those ages is less than 80%, and no one is decrying that.
More men are becoming stay at home spouses while their wives work. With the shift in jobs from a industrial economy to a information economy, and women earning more degrees, I think this trend will likely continue continue.
I'd be interested to see if more men are retiring early, prior to age 60.
The decline in manufacturing, construction, trucking, and other tradiational "working man" jobs also has a big impact I'm sure.
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steff
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Post by steff on May 10, 2011 18:25:20 GMT -5
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on May 10, 2011 18:30:48 GMT -5
1/5 th of men are lazy jerks. Big news. I think I dated all of them in college.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on May 10, 2011 18:32:04 GMT -5
As the economists David Autor and Mark Duggan have written, “the program provides strong incentives to applicants and beneficiaries to remain permanently out of the labor force, and it provides no incentive to employers to implement cost-effective accommodations that enable employees with work limitations to remain on the job.”
In that same paper (a joint effort of the Center for American Progress and the Hamilton Project), Mr. Autor and Mr. Duggan suggest some changes to the system. The two economists, as Ms. Rich writes, propose:
that disabled workers be offered partial income support and services to remain in the workplace. Moreover, they advocate for employers to purchase mandatory disability insurance as they do unemployment insurance and workers’ compensation, giving them incentive to accommodate workers rather than send them to the federal benefit rolls.
The more workers who went on disability, the higher a company’s insurance costs would be. economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/04/08/men-unemployment-and-disability/ This is from the link referenced in the OP Op-Ed column. It discusses how employers have contributed to the problem through their disposable worker attitudes.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on May 10, 2011 18:33:58 GMT -5
I'd say at least 5% of those 20% have some type of disability that prevents them from functioning in the workplace. Just a guess though, don't have figures to back it up. But I do wonder of those 20% how many are househusbands, how many are disabled, and how many took early retirement, or how many are self employed.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on May 10, 2011 18:40:12 GMT -5
I'd say at least 5% of those 20% have some type of disability that prevents them from functioning in the workplace. Just a guess though, don't have figures to back it up. But I do wonder of those 20% how many are househusbands, how many are disabled, and how many took early retirement, or how many are self employed. And how many wish to hell they had a job but can't find one.
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steff
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Post by steff on May 10, 2011 18:47:18 GMT -5
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on May 10, 2011 18:49:42 GMT -5
1/5 th of men are lazy jerks. Big news. I think I dated all of them in college. LOL!
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on May 10, 2011 18:51:42 GMT -5
I'd say at least 5% of those 20% have some type of disability that prevents them from functioning in the workplace. Just a guess though, don't have figures to back it up. But I do wonder of those 20% how many are househusbands, how many are disabled, and how many took early retirement, or how many are self employed. And how many wish to hell they had a job but can't find one. Another of the consequences of big government gone wild. When there are too many obstacles to starting and running a business-- as business goes, so goes the job market. Especially in the kind of fields that attract men.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on May 10, 2011 19:00:12 GMT -5
And how many wish to hell they had a job but can't find one. Another of the consequences of big government gone wild. When there are too many obstacles to starting and running a business-- as business goes, so goes the job market. Especially in the kind of fields that attract men. So what do you think of the idea that businesses have mandatory disability insurance so that they can't use workers and then cast the carcasses onto the public dole?
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on May 10, 2011 19:04:43 GMT -5
All in all, I found this article indicative of a great leap forward for liberal thinking. Yes, he thinks Medicare / ObamaCare is the answer and he's still wildly confused about what made this country great, and what will make us great again. But I think those of us with a lick of sense can agree that when a liberal sees men not working as a "problem", we're getting somewhere...
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Value Buy
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Post by Value Buy on May 10, 2011 19:04:54 GMT -5
and how many of them are actually on welfare? if on it, how long have they been on it? There's too many variables to say that they are all lazy & sucking on welfare their whole lives. Steff, the men do not have to be on welfare. Some (notice I did not say most) women on welfare, have a boyfriend (or even a supposed abandoned husband) who is nearby, who usually is not supposed to be on the premises for financial reasons, deemed by the Government, but usually are there, living off that money that is for the female and children. I also wonder if Paul's unemployed numbers do not include incarcerated men? Just an observation.
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steff
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Post by steff on May 10, 2011 19:09:05 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2011 19:19:33 GMT -5
I think Paul has a point about a small percentage of that 20%. There are a lot of reasons that a guy might not be working.
This is by design, by the way. Some of us are not fooled- and the real reason a lot of us are despised by the left is that we find ways around the obstacles placed in our paths.
I have to totally disagree with Paul on this one. Government jobs require accountability & accountability requires paperwork. As example: If I were a government inspector & inspected a company I couldn't just write "passed" on a form. I would have to document each item in that company that I had inspected. I would also have to have regulations on each of those items so that I could see if they had passed or not. The company might also require those regulations (how could they stay within the rules if they don't have a copy of the rules). The government overseeing business automatically creates paperwork, the bigger the government the more involvement with companies & the more paperwork needed (& more rules to follow). I don't believe this is a conspiracy, it's just a fact of life.
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Value Buy
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Post by Value Buy on May 10, 2011 19:24:30 GMT -5
Steff, the men do not have to be on welfare. Some (notice I did not say most) women on welfare, have a boyfriend (or even a supposed abandoned husband) who is nearby, who usually is not supposed to be on the premises for financial reasons, deemed by the Government, but usually are there, living off that money that is for the female and children. I also wonder if Paul's unemployed numbers do not include incarcerated men? Just an observation. In paul's first post he mentions that these men not working speaks to needing welfare reform (and other changes in govt). I was simply responding to that part of his comment. I think there are too many variables with this is assume what % is on welfare. And knowing 2 men personally that are 'house husbands', I thought I might have something to add to the discussion regarding that 20%. sorry I commented.... I'll butt out of the thread now....and will delete my comments Why delete? I said it was an observation on my part. I also am wondering if incarcerated men are in that 20%
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steff
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Post by steff on May 10, 2011 19:40:42 GMT -5
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formerexpat
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Post by formerexpat on May 10, 2011 19:42:23 GMT -5
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on May 10, 2011 20:40:07 GMT -5
I didn't even think about men in prison.
I have to respectfully disagree with paul that regulation is bad. Perhaps I'm biased because I work in heavily regulated field, and complying with regulations is most of my job.
Personally, I'd rather live in a world where we know the food and drugs we consume are safe, where we know the daycares we send our children too meet certain standards, that the companies we invest in aren't going to just take our money and run, are disclosing everything they should, not cooking the books ect. I like living in a world where I know nuclear reactors are monitored and regulated as safe, where hazardous waste is properly disposed of, I know the doctor I see is qualified, the cops on patrol aren't criminals themselves, that I can feel safe flying on an airplane, and much more.
There comes a point where regulation is bad and burdensome, but regulation isn't a bad thing.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on May 10, 2011 20:41:04 GMT -5
Surely, you jest. I've been more accountable since leaving my government job (NAVY). Everyone outside government is more accountable- we can be FIRED.
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❤ mollymouser ❤
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Post by ❤ mollymouser ❤ on May 10, 2011 20:49:40 GMT -5
I'd say at least 5% of those 20% have some type of disability that prevents them from functioning in the workplace. Just a guess though, don't have figures to back it up. But I do wonder of those 20% how many are househusbands, how many are disabled, and how many took early retirement, or how many are self employed. And how many are in prison. And how many are employed, but under the table. And how many are full-time students (sometimes for years and years)
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❤ mollymouser ❤
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Post by ❤ mollymouser ❤ on May 10, 2011 20:53:10 GMT -5
For starters, when you feminize the workplace-- and look, I am heading out for the night and so I'm trying to keep this brief-- either you understand this, or you don't-- and make it hostile to the aggressive, competitive, results-driven nature of men-- men are disinclined to enter that environment. In this context, can you clarify what you mean by "feminizing" the workplace? Just this just mean "more women are taking jobs traditionally held by men" or does it mean something else? (I'm not looking to start an argument or debate, I'm just not clear on what this term means in your statement)
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chiver78
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Post by chiver78 on May 10, 2011 20:58:12 GMT -5
For starters, when you feminize the workplace-- and look, I am heading out for the night and so I'm trying to keep this brief-- either you understand this, or you don't-- and make it hostile to the aggressive, competitive, results-driven nature of men-- men are disinclined to enter that environment. In this context, can you clarify what you mean by "feminizing" the workplace? Just this just mean "more women are taking jobs traditionally held by men" or does it mean something else? (I'm not looking to start an argument or debate, I'm just not clear on what this term means in your statement) I'll be happy to pick the fight in your place, with your words. you beat me to it. I hold a BS in Chemical Engineering, like a few other women on this board. Paul, do you mean to say that we have no business in industry, holding the same degree as our male peers? like Molly, I'd like you to clarify what you mean by the statement she has quoted. quite frankly, I don't see what my gender brings to my degree, or the technical competence I bring to the table each day.
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steff
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Post by steff on May 10, 2011 20:59:33 GMT -5
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formerexpat
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Post by formerexpat on May 10, 2011 21:06:23 GMT -5
Apparently, your job in the Navy was pretty low level then. The higher level of the Navy, along with all other branches have very high accountability; some so much so that you can be removed, reassigned or your career severely affected by a single mistake - i.e. those that handle our nukes, or those pilots that fly around the generals.
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chiver78
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Post by chiver78 on May 10, 2011 21:08:04 GMT -5
Apparently, your job in the Navy was pretty low level then. The higher level of the Navy, along with all other branches have very high accountability; some so much so that you can be removed, reassigned or your career severely affected by a single mistake - i.e. those that handle our nukes, or those pilots that fly around the generals. sshh....he's spouting self-importance. be quiet, he might bruise his ego.
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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2011 21:08:13 GMT -5
I've run in to LOTS of young men in my cab that live off their girlfriends. More than some people may imagine. Cab drivers run in to lots of lower class people. Yes, they live off their girl's benefits, illegally, or they sell drugs, or they send the girl out to strip to support them-- or worse. Sure that is just a portion, but it is out there.
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