billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on May 10, 2011 15:05:29 GMT -5
First off, I would support them always having the choice to perform any particular wedding. I am sure that if, in the past, they were unwilling to perform interracial weddings, the military would be able to shorten the chaplain's career effectively. However, if there is a directive that chapain's will perform such marriages or be disciplined directly for failure to do so, that same standard should be applied for same sex marriages. ...which puts the federal government, via its common defense, in a position to violate the 1st ammendment... do you agree with their doing that? Have you been in the military? Subjected yourself to the UCMJ?
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Post by BeenThere...DoneThat... on May 10, 2011 15:26:05 GMT -5
...which puts the federal government, via its common defense, in a position to violate the 1st ammendment... do you agree with their doing that? Have you been in the military? Subjected yourself to the UCMJ? ...and this answers my question how?
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on May 10, 2011 15:28:55 GMT -5
Have you been in the military? Subjected yourself to the UCMJ? ...and this answers my question how? One pretty much sells their constitutional soul to the country when they put on the uniform. Most who have serviced understand that.
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Post by BeenThere...DoneThat... on May 10, 2011 15:32:12 GMT -5
...and this answers my question how? One pretty much sells their constitutional soul to the country when they put on the uniform. Most who have serviced understand that. ...which would apply to gay servicemembers, right?
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on May 10, 2011 16:05:33 GMT -5
One pretty much sells their constitutional soul to the country when they put on the uniform. Most who have serviced understand that. ...which would apply to gay servicemembers, right? Getting me to where you want me? Of course it would.
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Post by ❤ mollymouser ❤ on May 10, 2011 16:37:23 GMT -5
Prior to the repeal of DADT, military chaplains were not required to officiate at any wedding which would violate the beliefs of their denomination. Which means Catholic priest chaplains, for example, were not required to marry previously-divorced persons who had not had their prior marriages annulled. And any Protestant chaplains whose denominations had similiar prohibitions against marrying previously divorced people could likewise opt out of officiating at such a marriage.
Now, with the repeal of DADT, military chaplains are in the exact same position. If their denominations have an issue with same sex marriages, they are not required to go against their faith to perform such a marriage.
It should be noted that at most bases, there are a number of chaplains assigned there, so that issues about having a military chaplain perform a ceremony can usually be worked out. And, if no military chaplain is available, there would still be civilian ordained clergy (or Justices of the Peace, or County Clerks, or Judges) who could officiate at such a wedding.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on May 10, 2011 16:49:06 GMT -5
Prior to the repeal of DADT, military chaplains were not required to officiate at any wedding which would violate the beliefs of their denomination. Which means Catholic priest chaplains, for example, were not required to marry previously-divorced persons who had not had their prior marriages annulled. And any Protestant chaplains whose denominations had similiar prohibitions against marrying previously divorced people could likewise opt out of officiating at such a marriage. Now, with the repeal of DADT, military chaplains are in the exact same position. If their denominations have an issue with same sex marriages, they are not required to go against their faith to perform such a marriage. It should be noted that at most bases, there are a number of chaplains assigned there, so that issues about having a military chaplain perform a ceremony can usually be worked out. And, if no military chaplain is available, there would still be civilian ordained clergy (or Justices of the Peace, or County Clerks, or Judges) who could officiate at such a wedding. Thanks for that information. I hadn't thought of the Catholic/divorce issue but that is a wonderful one which doesn't have a lot of baggage attached to it. So, the individual military chaplain was able previously to decline to do a particular wedding and they continue to be able to decline to do a particular wedding. IM(not so)HO, seems to cut the legs out from under anyone claiming discrimination based on sexual orientation.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on May 10, 2011 16:49:08 GMT -5
(Molly): "It should be noted that at most bases, there are a number of chaplains assigned there, so that issues about having a military chaplain perform a ceremony can usually be worked out. And, if no military chaplain is available, there would still be civilian ordained clergy (or Justices of the Peace, or County Clerks, or Judges) who could officiate at such a wedding."
Molly-say a same sex military couple or divorced Catholic/Protestant heterosexual couple (their marriages not annulled) wanted to be married on base but no military chaplain would perform the ceremony. Do you know if the military would allow a civilian clergy member or JP, or county clerk, or judge be allowed on base to perform a marriage ceremony?
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on May 10, 2011 16:53:55 GMT -5
(Molly): "It should be noted that at most bases, there are a number of chaplains assigned there, so that issues about having a military chaplain perform a ceremony can usually be worked out. And, if no military chaplain is available, there would still be civilian ordained clergy (or Justices of the Peace, or County Clerks, or Judges) who could officiate at such a wedding." Molly-say a same sex military couple or divorced Catholic/Protestant heterosexual couple (their marriages not annulled) wanted to be married on base but no military chaplain would perform the ceremony. Do you know if the military would allow a civilian clergy member or JP, or county clerk, or judge be allowed on base to perform a marriage ceremony? Read something early today that said yes. I was on a different computer and can't find it. Will keep looking.
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Post by ❤ mollymouser ❤ on May 10, 2011 17:15:56 GMT -5
Tennessee, yes. I know some divorced people who that applied to, and their local Chaplains were all Catholic or Pentecostal ... so those Chaplains actually gave them the names of several local Clergy who were willing to come and perform the ceremony on a visiting basis, using the base chapel. I think they ended up getting married by a Methodist.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on May 10, 2011 17:53:03 GMT -5
And back-up for what MM said (although her word is golden). All active-duty Sailors and Marines, reservists, and their family members, as well as Department of Defense civilians, can be married at a military chapel. A couple can be married by the base chaplain, another Navy chaplain with whom they are familiar, or a civilian ordained to perform marriages.
If a civilian minister is chosen, he or she will work with the base chaplain to keep within individual church guidelines for performing the ceremony. Chapel decor, flowers, photography, video taping and events following a ceremony, such as the Arch of Swords/Sabers, the throwing of birdseed or release of balloons, are traditions that may be considered, depending on the specific military chapel. www.militaryavenue.com/Articles/Planning+a+Military+Wedding+Doesnt+Have+to+be+a+Saber-Rattling+Experience-25178.aspx
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on May 10, 2011 17:59:31 GMT -5
I guess it really shouldn't be an issue then about same-sex marriages (in states where it is legal) being performed on military bases.
No military chaplain or civilian member of the clergy should be forced to perform a marriage ceremony they religiously or morally disagree with.
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Post by BeenThere...DoneThat... on May 10, 2011 19:02:12 GMT -5
...which would apply to gay servicemembers, right? Getting me to where you want me? Of course it would. ...actually, I'm not getting you anywhere... just posting about this with you...
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Post by BeenThere...DoneThat... on May 10, 2011 19:04:26 GMT -5
I guess it really shouldn't be an issue then about same-sex marriages (in states where it is legal) being performed on military bases. No military chaplain or civilian member of the clergy should be forced to perform a marriage ceremony they religiously or morally disagree with. ...other than that pesky DOMA, which means that a same-sex wedding taking place on base involves federal resources being used to violate federal law, right?
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on May 10, 2011 19:05:02 GMT -5
Getting me to where you want me? Of course it would. ...actually, I'm not getting you anywhere... just posting about this with you... Dang. I figured I was gonna git got.
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Post by BeenThere...DoneThat... on May 10, 2011 19:07:33 GMT -5
...actually, I'm not getting you anywhere... just posting about this with you... Dang. I figured I was gonna git got. ...not unless I can get you to re-repeal DADT... ;D
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Post by BeenThere...DoneThat... on May 10, 2011 19:08:15 GMT -5
...but I wasn't going to even try to do that... no offense...
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on May 10, 2011 19:12:30 GMT -5
I guess it really shouldn't be an issue then about same-sex marriages (in states where it is legal) being performed on military bases. No military chaplain or civilian member of the clergy should be forced to perform a marriage ceremony they religiously or morally disagree with. ...other than that pesky DOMA, which means that a same-sex wedding taking place on base involves federal resources being used to violate federal law, right? That thing still breathing?
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Post by BeenThere...DoneThat... on May 10, 2011 19:16:16 GMT -5
...to my knowledge, DOMA is still in force... which makes this a more complicated discussion... my personal feelings aside... I just don't like to see the federal govt. do anything it's not supposed to do... you know?
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on May 10, 2011 19:26:32 GMT -5
...to my knowledge, DOMA is still in force... which makes this a more complicated discussion... my personal feelings aside... I just don't like to see the federal govt. do anything it's not supposed to do... you know? Like get involved in an issue like marriage?
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Post by BeenThere...DoneThat... on May 10, 2011 19:31:21 GMT -5
<<< Like get involved in an issue like marriage? >>> ...right... and if they're going to butt their unwelcome nose into our business, then for crying out loud follow their own rules for doing so... which is oxymoronic, I know...
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Post by ❤ mollymouser ❤ on May 10, 2011 21:03:46 GMT -5
I can see the argument that there's no ADDITIONAL resources being expended to permit a same-gender marriage to occur, since the chapel's already there, and the chaplain's already getting paid.... whether or not another wedding takes place.
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Post by BeenThere...DoneThat... on May 10, 2011 21:28:18 GMT -5
I can see the argument that there's no ADDITIONAL resources being expended to permit a same-gender marriage to occur, since the chapel's already there, and the chaplain's already getting paid.... whether or not another wedding takes place. ...I think we see similar arguments for and against when discussing federal resources and abortions... you know, since the doctors are already on salary and the clinic is already there...
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on May 10, 2011 21:31:05 GMT -5
S'okay with me. I can see that, stateside, it would depend on the laws of the state in which the base was located, however.
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ungenteel
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Post by ungenteel on May 10, 2011 21:31:11 GMT -5
why would any rational being care?
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Post by ❤ mollymouser ❤ on May 10, 2011 22:52:13 GMT -5
I can see the argument that there's no ADDITIONAL resources being expended to permit a same-gender marriage to occur, since the chapel's already there, and the chaplain's already getting paid.... whether or not another wedding takes place. ...I think we see similar arguments for and against when discussing federal resources and abortions... you know, since the doctors are already on salary and the clinic is already there... I see the point you are making, but don't want to get into an abortion debate here. I will note, though, that women can't get abortions on military bases from military doctors ~ even if the abortion would be allowed in that state under the same circumstances. (And I don't believe the reasons for the prohibition are primarily cost-related)
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Post by ty on May 10, 2011 23:03:09 GMT -5
Well, my two gay brothers and one gay sister all served in the military. They deserve to be treated with mutual respect and given the same privileges as the rest of the military men and women get and receive.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 11, 2011 0:42:41 GMT -5
Hey, Kreepy- have you ever known a family with as many gay children as in your family? I haven't. Are there other gay people in your family? How was the military experience for them? I know my daughter's best friend is military, and she started up with a guy in her unit or whatever it's called when they were in Afghanistan. They have to keep it real hush hush or they will get in trouble, even now that they are back home but still in the Army. I guess a lot of carrying on is not encouraged among single troops, no matter who you are? Or so it seems.
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Post by ty on May 11, 2011 1:36:47 GMT -5
Hey, Kreepy- have you ever known a family with as many gay children as in your family? I haven't. Are there other gay people in your family? How was the military experience for them? I know my daughter's best friend is military, and she started up with a guy in her unit or whatever it's called when they were in Afghanistan. They have to keep it real hush hush or they will get in trouble, even now that they are back home but still in the Army. I guess a lot of carrying on is not encouraged among single troops, no matter who you are? Or so it seems. I come from a very large family of 15 siblings.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 11, 2011 9:52:48 GMT -5
I know. Your mother and father must be saints. Man, you guys could play 2 team baseball in your own back yard!!! ;D
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