US pushes Pakistani intelligence to wall

[deziloooooo]

Before turning on the Ball game I switched to CNN and Fareed Zakaria was on, missed a lot of it, but was speaking on Pakistan and he had some interesting things to say , that some here who are upset with them, me too, might be interersted in as far as importance , their agenda, and why we are at odd's on certain things.
Also the difference between their Military and the Government.
I'll see if I can remeber the main points he brought up.
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The civilian Government first of all, it is a weak one, yet they and we have similer interests, a Military more under their control and responsible to them then it is now, the increase in education and standard of living for th people, to deminish the radicleness of so many of their populace.

The Military, they are the horses in control, they can take over and remove the civilien Government any time they want to and in the past they have, more then once. They just got over having a former Generl in charge after many years who finally lost a election, alsdo the support of th Military.

There has never been a military take over by Captains, Colonials as other Military change overs have been done, it's always "THE MILITARY " top ranking people involved.

Militarys main concern is India. They Know thet would never win a conflict with them, they, Indians are to strong , thus they use the weakness of Afganistan, the bad guys , not the ones who are fighting them, the other bad guys , the ones who are attacking and killing Americans, as their suragotes to go into Kashmir, into India, Afganistan to cause problems , be a buffer against India. Thus they will not go after those bad guys, taliban, they use them, they will go after those taliban that are fighting them, those bad guys. Yes there are diferences and their secret police , the SIS do have contacts with the bad guys who attack our troops.

Their thinking is from the 19th century, not the 21 st century thus their intrigues, a allie but not really a allie. Till they change their thinking it's going to be a problem here.

About breaking ties with them. We did that in the past, think 90's and they , Military, became more radical, turned a bit toward the Chinese, friendly toward Afgan Taliban and we had literally no influence to speak with them.

The hope is , by giving civilien aid , as we are , many $, the civilien side will increase the education of their people, better infrastructure, increase the earning capacity, less poverty, thus more strength for the civilien society and the Military would be brought more under control of the civiliens government so he favors the continuation of civilien aid.

On the military aid , much more oversite, control of, basically Pakistan needs us more then we need them, we could just pull out, turn to the Indians who have wanted closer relations with us, civilien and Military and say, look go into Afganistan, just do what you want to do, this the Pakistanian military is afraid of and does not want to happen.

Then there is the last thing, Pakistan now has over 100 nuclear weapons, big increase past few years.
He , Fareed is not that worried about radicals getting them, the Pakistanian Military is a very efficient and well trained one, from the Brits and that training has continued.

As far as knowing about Osama being where he was, does not think the top leadership did, almost , as they are on some many of their contacts, the SIS, the top really don't want to know..deniability.
That lower members of SIS, the military knew, sympathetic, probably yes.

[burnsattornincan]

As far as knowing about Osama being where he was, does not think the top leadership did, almost , as they are on some many of their contacts, the SIS, the top really don't want to know..deniability.
That lower members of SIS, the military knew, sympathetic, probably yes.

Was there any doubt a Muslim would come up with any other explanation?

[marshabar1]

No doubt ISI is in charge. Sure wish Obama had ordered a strike on that helicoptor tail while it was still in the courtyard. All this dithering. . .

[deziloooooo]

May 6, 2011 21:13:00 GMT -5 @marshabar1 said:

No doubt ISI is in charge. Sure wish Obama had ordered a strike on that helicoptor tail while it was still in the courtyard. All this dithering. . .

I had a thought on that, there is talk of possible it ending up in China, they are supposedly working on developing a stealth chopper or even the Russians, they have the capability even over the Chinese to develop that and sell arms to China, hell everyone sell Arms to china, but my feelings..just demand the tail be given back or allow our people to destroy it, put up or shut up.

That we violated their sovereignty, tough, understanding who we were after and our feelings, Israel and Eichmann, and now their admitting their intelligence was in a let down phase on his whereabouts..with the aid we give them, I am for some arm twisting, no more Mr. Nice guy see where their loyalties, even though we know , lie but publicly , to say no, thats another thing.

If they wanted to do it quietly with no publicity, that would be fine with me, understanding the pressure their own people could give them, but the Military run this country so they are the ones who make the decisions.

Twist them arms is fine with me..Come on Hillery, like the way you probably laid into Bill over Monica, we want the tail rotor back..

[deziloooooo]

A new report on US unhappiness with Pakistan ISI, it's intelligence service and demands that leaders of the service be taken to account for the harboring of Osama all these years, other wise more US special services personnel will be active in the country going after the other leaders of the bad guys.
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[Click on link to read article]
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www.debka.com/article/20912/
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US Special Forces go after top Taliban, al Qaeda chiefs

Under ISI Protection and Care

The US pushes Pakistani intelligence to the wall

DEBKAfile Exclusive Analysis May 7, 2011, 1:14 PM (GMT+02:00)
The Obama administration is presenting the successful Osama bin Laden hit as an epic American solo operation, unparalleled in military and intelligence annals, while leaning hard on Islamabad to sack certain officers of the powerful military intelligence army ISI including its head Lt. Gen. Ahmad Shuja Pasha, accusing them of keeping the dead al Qaeda leader hidden for eight years.
The ISI chief is a close confidant of Pakistan's chief of staff Gen. Ashfaq Parvez Kayani with whom Washington works closely and so the demand for Pasha's head is seen as casting aspersions on him too.

American sources reported Saturday, May 7 that five days earlier, just hours after bin Laden was killed in Abbottabad, Pakistan, a high-ranking US official landed in Islamabad with a demand to bring the ISI officers involved in sheltering the al Qaeda leader to book.
It now appears that the iconic jihadi leader first arrived in Pakistani in 2003 and stayed in the small village of Chak Shah Mohammad near Haripur 40 kilometers north of the Pakistani capital. According Pakistani sources, this information came from questioning the Bin Laden wife found and detained in the Abbottabad villa where he was killed. She said the family stayed in the village two and-a-half years before moving to Abbottabad in 2005.

debkafile's intelligence sources report that details are slipping out over bin Laden's secret Pakistani addresses over the years. The ISI used some of those compounds as safe houses for terrorists from other organizations. The Abbottabad villa compound is now revealed as having served as a byway station for terrorists from Pakistan-backed organizations heading for Kashmir, long a violent bone of contention with India.

In summer, however, it had a very different use: High-ranking diplomats and officials of the Pakistani foreign office used it as a holiday villa, attracted by the pleasant climate in this North West Frontier town.

Far from being off the beaten track, the property was therefore in regular use by the authorities in Islamabad.

In the mounting duel between the Obama administration and Pakistan, two conflicting versions of the bin Laden episode are unfolding, with potentially detrimental effect on the Afghan War and global war on terror.

The Americans have embarked on a two-pronged strategy:
1. Friday, May 6, President Barack Obama was cheered by members of the 101st Airborne Division at Fort Campbell, Kentucky, when he said: "Now in recent days, the whole world has learned just how ready they were. These Americans deserve credit for one of the greatest intelligence military operations in our nation's history." Pakistan was not mentioned.
Obama had just shaken the hands of the Seals members who returned from Abbottabad.

2. Washington is not only cutting Pakistan out of any role in the feat but bent on weakening Pakistani military intelligence and, in particular, the officials tied to Osama bin Laden, on the assumption that they are also in touch with other high-profile al Qaeda leaders and may even be harboring them too. The US also presumes them to be in connection with the very Taliban leaders American soldiers are fighting in Afghanistan.
The Obama administration is vitally interested in weakening the Pakistani factions maintaining those ties and showing Taliban they can no longer be relied on as protection against America's long arm. The US will ultimately corner Taliban's leaders, whether by diplomatic engagement or the methods which ended Osama bin Laden's life.

Pakistan's take is not just different but increasingly resentful: Its military intelligence insists the bin Laden operation would not have succeeded without close cooperation between the CIA and ISI and the two armies – or some factions thereof – which was maintained at least up until President Obama's decision to authorize the Abbottabad raid. This view is supported by some Western counterterrorism agencies engaged in the war on al Qaeda.

Pakistani officials suspect the US administration heads is deliberately denying them a measure of credit for the successful mission because, with bin Laden gone, Obama feels confident enough to go straight to the Taliban to negotiate an end to the Afghanistan war and dispense with Pakistan's good services as intermediaries. With the al Qaeda leader out of the way, he wants to see the back of a Pakistan role in Afghanistan.
debkafile's counter-terror sources warn that the rising acrimony between Washington and Islamabad may well deter Pakistani intelligence from fingering more wanted al Qaeda figures and their hideouts - or even encourage the ISI to stand aside when Taliban goes for American targets in revenge for bin Laden's termination.

[deziloooooo]

Companion article to go with one above , this is the US effort of going after the three top leaders of al Quida in Pakistan by US special services folks, as these three may [been suggested] have joined together to wreck havok , spectaculer event possible, in revenge for the killing of Osama by US forces.
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www.debka.com/
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[click on link to read article]
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US Special Forces go after Mullah Omer, Ayman Zawahiri, Seif al-Adel

DEBKAfile Exclusive Report May 8, 2011, 11:38 AM (GMT+02:00)

In the wake of the Osama bin Laden operation, the US is sustaining the momentum of the war on terror by sending more Special Forces and drones into Pakistan after his top lieutenant, the Egyptian Ayman al Zawahiri, Taliban leader Mullah Omer and al Qaeda's chief operations officer, Seif al Adal.

debkafile's counter-terror sources report that on May 2, the day bin Laden was killed, the Taliban leader and his top staff were thought to be in Karachi, southern Pakistan and the two al Qaeda leaders in the tribal region of North Waziristan. All three are presumed to have since moved on.

US intelligence suspects their whereabouts are known to Pakistan's Inter-Services-Intelligence agency (ISI).

Our Washington sources report that Saturday night, May 7, President Barack Obama gave the Pakistani government, army and intelligence an ultimatum: Cooperate in the capture of the three wanted men or else we shall pump more American soldiers into Pakistan to take up the pursuit with or without your permission.

US intelligence is convinced that Omer, Zawahiri and al-Adal have joined forces and are plotting a revenge attack on America dramatic enough to outdo the psychological impact of the bin Laden killing.

Al-Adal, whom Iran released in Sept. 2010 and allowed to cross into Pakistan, is rated the most competent and innovative planner of large-scale terrorist attacks."

[marshabar1]

Good stuff, Dez. It'll be interesting to see how things develop. Wish we had a normal America loving administration at a time like this. Never feel it's America first with this regime. Seems to me whatever decisions are made on this end will be based on politics. Awful that good Americans have to die for those scum and good American tax dollars have to support them.

[deziloooooo]

May 8, 2011 16:21:42 GMT -5 @marshabar1 said:

Good stuff, Dez. It'll be interesting to see how things develop. Wish we had a normal America loving administration at a time like this. Never feel it's America first with this regime. Seems to me whatever decisions are made on this end will be based on politics. Awful that good Americans have to die for those scum and good American tax dollars have to support them.

Listened to a lot of people on Pakistan this week, and there is a reality here, possible a better meeting of the minds here after all the posturing , both sides.

Each country has their own agenda and Pakistan thinks they will be left holding the bag.

We left , packed it all in after the Soviets folded, but that won't happen this time, complete pull out, no matter the Administration so if they can see we will be there, in some form..

With it becoming a special operations type of war, and useing the droans and planes, we don't need hugh #'s of boots on the ground and if they are convinced with our continued interest, with they having over 100 Nucs, are interest definitly is peaked, possible more cooperative, not as afraid they will be left in the lurch to face their own Taliban alone, and if they can get over a bitn , their paranoia of India as ready to move in, , just my thinking.

[henryclay]

At the risk of providing some realism here, I remember that during the years after WWII there were people who were dedicated to finding Nazi war criminals. The US was in full cooperation , , , as long as it didn't include the ones that were employed as intelligence experts on the Russians.

And the US has to look inward and investigate why it takes so long to find our own terrorists before we point fingers at our allies, if we want them to continue to be our allies.

It has been reported here that bin Laden.s whereabouts has been known to US intelligence for up to 5 years, so to me, the question is not what the Pakistanis knew, it's why it took so long to go get him.

I have an even greater question for this administration. It has to do with entering the air space of another country unannounced and with murder as a purpose, and killing unarmed people and calling the entire thing a firefight, while at the same time keepng lesser men in prison for defending themselves during real firefights.

I also have another question. It has to do with the people who are now praising the take down, but are also trying to say waterboarding should be outlawed. I'd like to know how they can square one with the other.

[deziloooooo]

May 8, 2011 23:19:28 GMT -5 henryclay said:

At the risk of providing some realism here, I remember that during the years after WWII there were people who were dedicated to finding Nazi war criminals. The US was in full cooperation , , , as long as it didn't include the ones that were employed as intelligence experts on the Russians.

And the US has to look inward and investigate why it takes so long to find our own terrorists before we point fingers at our allies, if we want them to continue to be our allies.

It has been reported here that bin Laden.s whereabouts has been known to US intelligence for up to 5 years, so to me, the question is not what the Pakistanis knew, it's why it took so long to go get him.

I have an even greater question for this administration. It has to do with entering the air space of another country unannounced and with murder as a purpose, and killing unarmed people and calling the entire thing a firefight, while at the same time keepng lesser men in prison for defending themselves during real firefights.

I also have another question. It has to do with the people who are now praising the take down, but are also trying to say waterboarding should be outlawed. I'd like to know how they can square one with the other.

Henry, personally I don't believe our people would know where he was for, what did you say, some say five years, just don't believe it. I see no reason to,.. wait one here's a scenario, if five years ago we went in and got him , less reason to stay in Afganistan, hows that, and it would have been in Bushs tenure and he would have loved to get out of there, so if he knew , they would have gone for him.

I can see a few months as they finalized it, that makes sense to me, wanted to nail it and thjey hadn't quite nailed it and while they had a good idea it was/may be him, they really, from reports that have been released, have any idea who, just some one important.

" It has to do with entering the air space of another country unannounced and with murder as a purpose, and killing unarmed people and calling the entire thing a firefight, "

Think they stopped with the 'Fire Fight, that was the first reports, a shot was fired by the courier, after that, all shots came from the seals, brother of the courier, son of Osama, woman, Osama and the wounding of the wife.

Water boarding is out lawed..Obama issued that order.

Lesser people in Prison..you lost me there, who. Gitmo types?

[henryclay]

just don't believe it.

To some no expalnation is necessary. To others no explanbation would be good enough.

as long as it didn't include the ones that were employed as intelligence experts on the Russians.

Or develop our rockets, missles and space programs.

In April 1943, Heinrich Himmler visited Peenemünde. Von Braun, partially visible behind Himmler, was in his SS death's head uniform that day. At that time, the Gestapo SS took over the facility. Wernher von Braun was promoted to Sturmbannfüehrer: the equivalent of Major in the U.S. Army. Most of these top Nazis were later brought to the U.S. They were intimately acquainted with the rockets of Dr. Robert Goddard.

Water boarding is out lawed..Obama issued that order.

And slammed the door on any and all future gold mines. But he was not immune from taking credit for what is got us in the past, was he? I wonder if he has a speech ready with apologies to anybody for the harshness meted out to our enemies under HIS tutelage. He has sure put everybody before him down hard enough, , , while kissing rings and bowing and telling the world how America has so much to apologize for.

[deziloooooo]

I know all about Von Braun, he wanted to surrender to the Americans brought a lot of his people with him, a lot went to the Soviets, who ever got them first

Water Boarding ..have to leave that up to those who are in that end of the business, Pres. says no, next one may say yes., I am going to think if they really get some one important, rumor that something serious may be going down the right people will go in and plead for what ever, seems the talking was done long after the water boarding, they did it to him what 189 times...seems a long time to hold out, I would think call in a few old time cops and let them go to work, possible a lot faster..

seriously, I'm beyond second guessing things beyond my pay grade, I found most times , that was the best way , however, at times...

Boy those folks really into the uniforms weren't they, all big on cavalry style, I thought that there was a regulation all officers had to wear side arms in uniform.

[henryclay]

HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA sob HA HA HA HA HA HA HA my side hurts, HA HA HA HA where's the kool aid? HA HA HA HA AHHHHHHHHH And the earth is flat, too. HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA sob HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA sob HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA sob HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA sob HA HA HA HA HA HA HA

[deziloooooo]

guess I missed it...glad you got something to tickle your funny bone though, always like to know I make people happy, doesn't always happen.