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Post by Deleted on Apr 29, 2011 18:44:52 GMT -5
Make certain that your daughter is onboard with whatever commitment that braces take. My daughter had them for years (and then had to have veneers because she had them on so long that her teeth got cavities under the braces). My son had something to correct an overbite from the time he was about 7. He HATED it and wouldn't wear it. When the doctor asked me about putting full braces on him, I honestly said, "Why?"
My son is 32, and his overbite isn't bothering him yet.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Apr 29, 2011 18:53:09 GMT -5
I'd get some other estimates, then I'd make sure I went to an older dentist not a young one with loans and a family to support. A 5% discount for cash isn't squat, either. I go to an older dentist who actually works part-time now. I did go, as did my kids, to a younger dentist and we all needed tons of work. I got suspicious and asked around for another dentist. Guess what? NONE of us had a problem. Find an older ortho and if it is ONLY going to be appearance not damage to her mouth, I'd wait for a few more years. Those of us that are older got braces in middle school but I bought into the 2 sets of braces for each kid, Phase One and Phase Two. I got royally ripped off my a young dentist with a young ortho brother. Sadder but wiser now. Don't make the same mistakes. I had dental and ortho thru my school insurance. If Loopy can get a school job, you will be amazed at the benefits.
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simser
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Post by simser on Apr 29, 2011 18:56:11 GMT -5
Just as a note- my dentist when I was a baby told my parents to not get me braces until I was 18 (I'm a pretty small female) because that was when my mouth would stop growing. When I was 10 (different dentist) the "your daughter needs braces" comments started coming... and they stopped when I was 16. Because my mouth finally had grown enough for all of my teeth.
I'd hold off on the child's and just get yours. You can see if you can get private dental insurance, or just cash flow it. When you're done see how she (and her sister) are doing.
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Apr 29, 2011 19:24:25 GMT -5
1) You're not an asshole for feeling squeezed at your salary, I make about 1/2 that (in a LCOLA), no kids, and I feel the same way. Some of it is probably the single wage-earner aspect.
2) You mentioned in another thread that you'd about hit the salary ceiling for your current job, right? Short-term answer would probably be summer babysitting or Derby referrals (good idea, Shenandoah), but long-term, you might start looking for another job.
3) (a spinoff of #2) Not having any non-retirement savings built into the budget might become a problem down the road. With 2 kids and a house, you may be running into a few more $5K or $10K emergencies in the next decade. Plus kids tend to get more expensive as they get older. I know you mentioned the company ownership ($35K?) but it seems like you and Loop need to sort out what that represents first. Your EF should not be her retirement fund or the kids' college money. That seems like a shitstorm waiting to happen. And if you don't feel comfortable liquidating it to come up with $450/month, is it really an EF?
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Apr 29, 2011 19:29:58 GMT -5
One of the extra checks will hit right about Christmas time, which is also my birthday, the wife's birthday, and one of my daughter's birthdays. December is always an expensive month for us. The other "extra" paycheck could go straight towards the braces though.
The more I look at the numbers the more I realize we're alright, with a few tweaks. We've never had this little wiggle room in the budget though. We haven't been that great at saving any of the extra, but we've always had quite a bit left over after paying the mandatory monthly expenses. Partly it was letting some stuff creep up, like groceries, and partly it's just the COL out here. We're still getting used to budgeting on 26 paychecks a year instead of 24, and our house.
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Post by debtheaven on Apr 29, 2011 19:30:31 GMT -5
This really depends on what is wrong with the kid's mouth. If it is just cosmetic then it can probably wait. My dd would have never gotten her lateral incisors without either an expander or having teeth pulled. Pooks I agree. My daughter spent about two years with an expander and ended up having a couple of teeth pulled anyway. And in retrospect, I think we should have started two years later and just pulled thse teeth since that's what ended up happening, but of course hindsight is 20/20. Of course it depends on the specific issues, but I'm not sure many 10YOs are mature enough to follow the constraints, they are generally too young to realize what is at stake. I'm not trying to start a debate here (I need to go to bed now) and of course it's like everything, some are, and some aren't. But if money is tight, perhaps's Dark's DD could wait just six months. I'm not suggesting putting it off forever, or even for years. Dark, I do think you should get a second opinion (I forgot to say that in my first post.) Even if the prices end up to be identical, it's better for you to see two and decide who you prefer to work with.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Apr 29, 2011 19:42:50 GMT -5
I know you mentioned the company ownership ($35K?) but it seems like you and Loop need to sort out what that represents first. Your EF should not be her retirement fund or the kids' college money. That seems like a shitstorm waiting to happen. And if you don't feel comfortable liquidating it to come up with $450/month, is it really an EF? We really do need to hash that out. It's a bit of a mess. It's her share of the families old plantation in Mississippi. It's a huge estate, which is currently being used to grow timber. They also rent out the plantation house as a private hunting lodge. The hunting money pays for the upkeep on the trees, and along with some selective thinning kicks off a small dividend every year. Once they start really harvesting the wood the plan is to reinvest some of the money to replant, and use the rest to pay dividends. They have various types of wood which will be harvested at different times, but it worked out so that most of it would happen right about the time our daughters are college aged, so Loop has always planned to use that money to pay for their college. I think she's expecting low five figure dividends during the main harvest years. Once the kids are through school any future dividends would be reinvested in something and become her retirement. She got her shares when she turned 18, so it was some of the first "money" we ever had, so we've always tended to view it as an emergency fund. However, it would have to be a true emergency before she'd be willing to sell. I've always been a little more skeptical of just how much future money the shares will really provide, but it's her birthright so selling them and investing somewhere else is pretty much off the table. Because of all the emotional attachment, it might be better to classify them totally as college/retirement money and save up an EF in cash.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 29, 2011 19:48:43 GMT -5
This said, Dark, I have four kids, three have had braces so far, and 10 sounds pretty young to me. 12 or 13 is more common here. This really depends on what is wrong with the kid's mouth. If it is just cosmetic then it can probably wait. My dd would have never gotten her lateral incisors without either an expander or having teeth pulled. My oldest DD also had an adult tooth that couldn't come in until she got her palate expander. Also, just because they want to start orthodontia now, doesn't mean a full set of top and bottom braces. My 12 year old has 4 or 5 brackets on the top (had one tooth completely behind another so they had to be realigned) and 4 brackets on the bottom. Until they have the majority of their adult teeth, they normally don't get the cosmetic portion, and instead just have bite and alignment issues done.
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Apr 29, 2011 20:54:36 GMT -5
Will you at least be able to use FSA for braces? Split it between two years ($5K each yr maximum) and you will get some savings that way.
I think you need more income. Yes, you can cut a bit here and there, but one "unforeseen" house or car expense and you'll have to use credit cards. Since you've only have the house for less than a year, you don't know it very well yet, so you might get something you didn't consider. Also, with summer coming up, I don't know if your girls are doing camp, etc - also extra money. Yes, you can go on a strict "diet" budget, but how realistic is it to do for the next 2 yrs?
I have always been of an opinion of not touching 401K unless it's a dire emergency and not stopping contributions unless it's a dire emergency.
Can your wife or you tutor, babysit, or whatever to bring a few hundred dollars a month? I would go the income route vs cutting expenses route. Just my opinion.
Lena
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Apr 29, 2011 20:56:02 GMT -5
So I had a water bill waiting when I got home today. $139.96. Only $51 is water, $86 is sewer, and the last few bucks is street sweeping. I don't feel so bad about our water bills now. Well, other than the fact that this is the first one I'd ever looked at.
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Post by gsbrq on Apr 29, 2011 21:17:39 GMT -5
Well, you need a liquid EF, as you probably now realize. If your wife is a SAHM it shouldn't be that hard to cut your grocery bill quite a bit.
I know a lot of folks like to do the "extra paycheck", but I prefer a "per paycheck" budget...most of my paycheck is earmarked and tucked away into various savings, retirement, and operating accounts, and I get an "allowance" for my discretionary spending. I save for everything using this method: gifts, vacations, medical & vet expense, etc.
But if your wife can bring in any part-time income without adding to your expenses, that might be easier since you essentially have no cash savings to fall back on at this point.
Also, Lena makes a good point about fully utilizing the FSA, especially in your tax bracket.
You have over $12k in unallocated income, as far as I can tell...you should be able to make this work. Good luck!
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lurkyloo
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Post by lurkyloo on Apr 29, 2011 22:54:16 GMT -5
How's your tax refund situation? Any possibility of adjusting that so you pay less during the year as opposed to getting a refund?
You are living a little tight, honestly. 10-11K is expensive, but repeat unexpected expenses tend to be a fact of life. I know your earning power is higher, but Loop has (theoretically) more free time, at least during the school year. In a couple of years, your girls will be old enough that she could even look at full-time; might be a good time to think about getting a foot in the door?
My other mantra is that an extra dollar earned is only about $0.50 after taxes; a dollar saved you get to keep 100%. The thing that really jumps out at me is your grocery bill. I bet you can cut at least $200 off that just by planning meals around sales. I'm not too far away from y'all, and I'm constantly amazed at the difference between everyday prices and what you can score by stocking up at a good sale. Example: Chicken breasts are pretty much always available somewhere for $2/lb; top and ground sirloin periodically go on sale for $3/lb (regular price typically $6-8/lb). Freezer space is your friend!
Good luck!
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Apr 30, 2011 7:22:29 GMT -5
I counsel wait. In 2 months you will have an extra $450 a month. IF you can sell the bike, there's some cash as well. That grocery budget can and should be cut BIG TIME. By at LEAST $200 a month. Babysitting this summer a couple of kids your girls ages will be company for them and extra money for your coffers. Loop needs to find school based employtment or nights/weekends part-time. Libraries are big on part-time help. Lots of places are. Auto dealerships reception centers, etc. I'd wait a year mimimum and 18-24 months is better. Also get other estimates.
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happyscooter
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Post by happyscooter on Apr 30, 2011 7:52:55 GMT -5
Not so much a money issue, but please have them check the x-rays for incoming wisdom teeth. Both of my sons had braces and had to have their wisdom teeth cut out while the braces were on. Not quite so bad when you consider one of our friends put braces on their child's teeth. Took them off, looked fine. Wisdom teeth came in, crowded back up. Insurance of course would not pay a second time. (Not the whole thing the first time) So they had to put them back on for a while.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on May 1, 2011 5:31:17 GMT -5
OP, what have you decided to do?
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doxieluvr
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Post by doxieluvr on May 1, 2011 9:11:04 GMT -5
I think you need to show us a picture of both mouths and we will decide which one is the most needing of braces. ;D
Personally I would provide the braces for my daughter and hold off for me, but I generally always put my kids needs before my own. It is just how I work.
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Post by Deleted on May 1, 2011 11:10:49 GMT -5
The answer is always put the woman to work. Because of the economy or education level, that might not be something that can happen right away. It is hard to replicate the 1950's ideal of a SAHM when you have a house larger than 1300sq ft. There are many reasons the 1950's ideal is hard to replicate today, but it mostly has to do with people want to live at the same level as 2 earner families.
Get a 2nd or 3rd opinion on the braces in the short term and evaluate your wife's earning potential for the long term.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on May 1, 2011 16:03:33 GMT -5
I'd wait a year mimimum and 18-24 months is better. Also get other estimates. We'll get other estimates, but I've already been putting mine off too long. My lower teeth chipped one of my upper front teeth just a few weeks ago. The day after I had my consult with the orthodontist actually. My daughter's might be able to wait a bit, but she has a very similar bite to mine and she needs them to keep from damaging her front upper and lower teeth as well. Neither of us need them just for cosmetic reasons. Both of us have really straight looking teeth, they just hit wrong when we bite. OP, what have you decided to do? Not much yet. My wife gets back from the convention tonight and we'll talk about it. We can probably cut enough from the budget to make it workable, but I don't think either of us will really be comfortable with that. We've pretty much always had right around $1,000 a month left after taxes, insurance, retirement, groveries, and our monthly bills. That's really where we're comfortable. We were already a little tighter than normal due to the house, and moving to 26 paychecks instead of 24 made it feel like I got a pay cut on top of it. Neither of us like the idea of adding to our monthly obligations right now. We'll probably try to trim the grocery budget, lower our cell phone bill, and maybe cut cable, but I imagine Loop will be looking for work tomorrow. Oh, and I'm selling the bike obviously, which I've been meaning to do for months.
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qofcc
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Post by qofcc on May 2, 2011 7:54:19 GMT -5
We'll probably try to trim the grocery budget, lower our cell phone bill, and maybe cut cable, but I imagine Loop will be looking for work tomorrow.
Your kids are almost to the point of not needing a babysitter and starting to pull away from their parents in favor of hanging out with friends. This is a great time for her to start looking into re-entering the workforce if that's what she wants to do, but if it was me, i'd try to enjoy the summer with the kids and plan on starting work in the fall. Another carefree summer hanging out with mom is probably going to be more beneficial to your kids development than braces a few months early.
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Post by robbase on May 2, 2011 8:38:22 GMT -5
have you factored in your annual tax return?
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Wisconsin Beth
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Post by Wisconsin Beth on May 2, 2011 9:04:21 GMT -5
Dark, I think DH and I bring in similar pay to yours in a MCOL and I have similar feelings. Stop procrastinating and deal with the bike. Are you paying car insurance on it? And before you feel really guilty about your daughter's teeth, TALK to her about braces. My parents could only afford to put braces on my top 6 front teeth (I had a tooth come in sideways) and couldn't afford to deal with my crossbite. They were paying for full braces on my older brother and sister. I was delighted to not have full braces. Admittedly this was 30 years ago when I was 10, but she's old enough to have her own thoughts and feelings on this. Find out what they are. If she's embarrassed or ashamed of her teeth as they are, then yes, deal with them. But if she's good with doing yours first, then do it and don't feel guilty. Sorry, but there's no way I would let my 10 year old decide whether or not they wanted braces. They have no idea of the future impact of poor looking teeth (if it's purely cosmetic) or the possible jaw/bite problems they could encounter. Orthodontia starts earlier these days because if the mouth is too small they can do palate expanders, which work better before the bones are fully fused, instead of pulling teeth (it's always best to keep your teeth). All my kids started their ortho at 9/10 years old. I would start with whichever one of you is more urgent (with the 24 month no-interest payments) and then in 6 months (after you've had some time to save up for a larger down payment) do the other one, again with the 24 months no-interest plan. I didn't explain that well. What I meant was finding out if she was ok delaying the braces until Dark's done as he's stated/implied that his is more urgent than her.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 2, 2011 10:01:54 GMT -5
Sorry, but there's no way I would let my 10 year old decide whether or not they wanted braces. They have no idea of the future impact of poor looking teeth (if it's purely cosmetic) or the possible jaw/bite problems they could encounter. Orthodontia starts earlier these days because if the mouth is too small they can do palate expanders, which work better before the bones are fully fused, instead of pulling teeth (it's always best to keep your teeth). All my kids started their ortho at 9/10 years old. I would start with whichever one of you is more urgent (with the 24 month no-interest payments) and then in 6 months (after you've had some time to save up for a larger down payment) do the other one, again with the 24 months no-interest plan. I didn't explain that well. What I meant was finding out if she was ok delaying the braces until Dark's done as he's stated/implied that his is more urgent than her. Which is sort of what I said - don't start them both at the same time so you can at least save up for the second set for a little longer and have lower payments.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on May 2, 2011 15:16:22 GMT -5
Okay $11,000 less $2500 cash from the sale of the bike less $1500 insurance payment only leave you with $7,000 that you will owe.
One of your freebie paychecks will be coming in June or July (right?) so wait until then to get started. Just start with you. Now, you can take half or 2/3rds of the freebie paycheck, plus the $2500 from the sale of the bike, and pay all of it. Then, you want to get started with your daughter. Now, you will only be financing half of what you originally said - so let's say your payment will be $250 instead of $450. Well, $180 of that can come from the bike payment, which you will no longer have, and the remainder can come from you just dumping your data plan and going to a pre-paid cell or a basic plan.
But, in reality, I'm thinking your payment will be even less than $250 - unless her teeth are really bad and she has the lion's share of the $11k. So, I would still look to slim up the television bill, and start upping your cash reserves. But, to pay for these braces, I think you will be fine.
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Post by robbase on May 2, 2011 15:17:26 GMT -5
You won't like my answer but I see a few possibilities:
1) (probably more tolerable)- get a second job or get wife to work part time off hours so as not to incur day care costs
2) consider an equivalent gov position in a lower COL location or maybe some other housing arrangement in your current location. You will lose some of your COLA adjustment portion of the salary but the base gov salary will be the same (you are GS Federal if I remember correctly). Of course this depends on things like if you own and are underwater on your house and other factors but this is a possibility
3) How old are you? How long do you plan to work? Maybe retirement can be cut some (because if you are as young as I think you are saving a lot...I know there is no such thing as saving too much for retirement, but if you have serious issues like teeth that may be more of a priority)
4) When will the $700 car payments be done? And will you keep the same cars after they paid off?
appears you have bit off a lot already, close to $100K base and almost paycheck to paycheck living is not a good situation (no matter even if in a high COL), sorry I warned you up front you would not like my answer
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on May 2, 2011 15:33:08 GMT -5
One of your freebie paychecks will be coming in June or July (right?) so wait until then to get started. No, I thought so too, but I checked last week and it looks like I'll get them in September and December this year. Rob, I'm a contractor not GS, so I don't get a COLA adjustment and I don't have a set base salary that would stay the same somewhere else. I'm 29, and I am saving kind of a lot for retirement. I mean, I don't think it's a lot, but compared to national averages it's a lot. The only car payments we have is the $180 a month for my bike which has two months left. Most of the $700 in transportation costs is the $400 a month in gas. Our two cars are both 2004s so the absolute earliest we'd look at replacing those will be in 2014.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on May 2, 2011 15:37:29 GMT -5
That's weird. But, okay - why not sell the bike now, and get yours started, and then make payments until September - pay off yours and get your daughter started then. I know you say that you will feel bad about not getting her started right away, but 5 months won't really matter that much. So, when September rolls around, yours will be paid off, summer will be over, Loop can look for a job, and you can start making payments on your daughter's mouth. If that is totally unacceptable - push yours off for another 5 or 6 months and use the insurance and the bike money (and the bike payment money) to pay for your daughter to get started, and then kick yours off in September.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on May 2, 2011 15:42:14 GMT -5
why not sell the bike now, and get yours started, and then make payments until September - pay off yours and get your daughter started then. That's pretty much what we're looking at. Along with getting a second price quote on both of us from another orthodontist to see if we can get the total down. We still need to make some cuts in the budget though. We shouldn't be living this tight on my salary. I don't mean that to sound stuck up or anything, it's just the way I feel. I know we don't live in the cheapest area, but still, we can do better without really sacrificing our lifestyle.
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suziq38
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Post by suziq38 on May 2, 2011 17:32:24 GMT -5
Where do you live, Dark? I guess a $2300.00 house payment isn't all that much in California. How old are your kids? If your DD is 10, and your other child is older, it is nice that your wife is home with them. On the other hand, there is time from 8:30 AM until 2:00 or 3:00 PM that she can work.
That extra money can pay for both sets of braces, plus setting up an EF for emergencies. Also, college is around the corner. The income from your wife's job can help pay for that.
I say that she needs to think about a good part-time job, close to home. Volunteering is great, I did a lot of that, but it doesn't pay the bills.
I still volunteer as much as time permits, I just get paid a little something for my trouble.
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suziq38
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Post by suziq38 on May 2, 2011 17:35:55 GMT -5
why not sell the bike now, and get yours started, and then make payments until September - pay off yours and get your daughter started then. That's pretty much what we're looking at. Along with getting a second price quote on both of us from another orthodontist to see if we can get the total down. We still need to make some cuts in the budget though. We shouldn't be living this tight on my salary. I don't mean that to sound stuck up or anything, it's just the way I feel. I know we don't live in the cheapest area, but still, we can do better without really sacrificing our lifestyle. Talk to the orthodontist. He/she may be able to lower the price, since he/she will be getting TWO paying patients. You also need to "shop" around for the price. Call around. My 2 kids needed braces, and I shopped the price around. I wanted good orthos, but I also wanted to make sure I had the best price.
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suziq38
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Post by suziq38 on May 2, 2011 17:37:14 GMT -5
Food $800 Groceries 800 Of course, I have to talk about these expenditures with you, because they total $1,600.00. That is more than my house payment.
What is "food" vs. groceries? I thought that they were the same thing.
Do you mean food=restaurants and meals out?
If you multiply $1,600.00 X 12 months, this equals $19,200.00 a year.
Do you buy strictly "organic" which is good but very expensive. Are you eating out a great deal? Are you hosting numerous parties or events to "push up" this food total? It is my understanding that you feed only 4 people (2 adults and 2 children). How old are the children?
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