SAHMs

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

That being said, I have watched my sister struggle in the last 8 years since her divorce trying to match what she had earned before she stepped out.  At this point, it has taken every bit of those 8 years to match salary wise 80% of where she was when she stepped out of the workforce.  She will never be able to recoup what she lost as her ex earns about twice that.

 She's 61, ageism is alive and well

[billisonboard]

Aug 2, 2024 11:40:02 GMT -5 The Walk of the Penguin Mich said:

There was one where the wife had been prominently involved in the development and start up of THEIR company.  As the children came, she stepped back more.  Over the years, she documented every single bit of her action, digitized it and stored it in a safe location.  

Fast forward and the kids are grown.  Son wants his wife to do what his mom did.  MIL told wife that she has a fallback in that she has been documenting her contributions to THEIR company and has it safely stored away.  Husband got all bent out of shape, how dare she expect to take part of HIS company.  Her response was ‘the fact that you consider your company YOUR company and not OUR company is the reason she has the documentation’.  

The DIL refused to be a SAHM after this.

Now there is an interesting relationship, living day after day with someone from whom you need to guard yourself.

[pulmonarymd]

The relationship may be totally fine. However, people do change nad not always for the better. It is better to be prepared for a bad outcome. Otherwise, you can be significantly worse off. As Reagan said 'Trust, but verify".

[Rukh O'Rorke]

Very smart move on her part in regards to this, although why she is being put in this position at all makes me wonder if she should have been smarter, earlier.

This conversation on its own is a red flag with his expectation of the wife to do things for his emotional comfort. Weird that that is his focus rather than the kids. It's his anxiety about the kids.

Frankly, once a partner starts asking for significant sacrifices in your life to appease their emotions - you are in a losing game. The dynamic has become one of catering to their emotional demands rather than them dealing with their own anxiety, jealousy, whatever. 

Not a relationship I'd want to be in, frankly.

What is not mentioned is what her career is, and her emotional investment in it, so the level of sacrifice is not well understood which may change things. however, men encouraging women to become 100% financially dependent on them is something of a red flag on its own. No mention of part time, just till kindergarten, etc. Just stay home. forever?

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

Aug 2, 2024 11:52:25 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Aug 2, 2024 11:40:02 GMT -5 The Walk of the Penguin Mich said:

There was one where the wife had been prominently involved in the development and start up of THEIR company.  As the children came, she stepped back more.  Over the years, she documented every single bit of her action, digitized it and stored it in a safe location.  

Fast forward and the kids are grown.  Son wants his wife to do what his mom did.  MIL told wife that she has a fallback in that she has been documenting her contributions to THEIR company and has it safely stored away.  Husband got all bent out of shape, how dare she expect to take part of HIS company.  Her response was ‘the fact that you consider your company YOUR company and not OUR company is the reason she has the documentation’.  

The DIL refused to be a SAHM after this.

Now there is an interesting relationship, living day after day with someone from whom you need to guard yourself.

Why?  50% of marriages end up in divorce.  Why is should you covering your butt (regardless of reason) be a bad thing?  

[billisonboard]

Aug 2, 2024 13:22:26 GMT -5 The Walk of the Penguin Mich said:

Aug 2, 2024 11:52:25 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Now there is an interesting relationship, living day after day with someone from whom you need to guard yourself.

Why?  50% of marriages end up in divorce.  Why is should you covering your butt (regardless of reason) be a bad thing?  

Who said bad thing? I have gone through divorces. Because I married decent human beings, there were no serious issues when we broke up, thus confirming I didn't fuck up not documenting every little thing in a secure location. I just thought it interesting she knew(?) she needed to document it all because of the type of human being she married and with whom she had children.

[daisylu]

Aug 2, 2024 13:36:20 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Aug 2, 2024 13:22:26 GMT -5 The Walk of the Penguin Mich said:

Why?  50% of marriages end up in divorce.  Why is should you covering your butt (regardless of reason) be a bad thing?  

Who said bad thing? I have gone through divorces. Because I married decent human beings, there were no serious issues when we broke up, thus confirming I didn't fuck up not documenting every little thing in a secure location. I just thought it interesting she knew(?) she needed to document it all because of the type of human being she married and with whom she had children.

You can marry decent people but divorce brings out the worst in people. People also change over time. Women in particular need to plan for the worst. SAHMs especially. A backup plan is always needed. 

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

Aug 2, 2024 13:36:20 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Aug 2, 2024 13:22:26 GMT -5 The Walk of the Penguin Mich said:

Why?  50% of marriages end up in divorce.  Why is should you covering your butt (regardless of reason) be a bad thing?  

Who said bad thing? I have gone through divorces. Because I married decent human beings, there were no serious issues when we broke up, thus confirming I didn't fuck up not documenting every little thing in a secure location. I just thought it interesting she knew(?) she needed to document it all because of the type of human being she married and with whom she had children.

My sister pulled the down payment for their house from her IRA that she had….before she even met her ex.  Fast forward 24 years, the ex shredded all proof that she, on her own, had made a considerable (25%) investment in their home purchase.  He contributed 0.  

You never know how much of an asshole someone will be in going through a divorce.  Just because nothing happened to you doesn’t mean that it doesn’t happen to others.  To assume it doesn’t is naive.

TBH, what harm is it.  If it’s never needed….great.  If it is, you have proof when you need it of your contribution.

[pulmonarymd]

Aug 2, 2024 13:36:20 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Aug 2, 2024 13:22:26 GMT -5 The Walk of the Penguin Mich said:

Why?  50% of marriages end up in divorce.  Why is should you covering your butt (regardless of reason) be a bad thing?  

Who said bad thing? I have gone through divorces. Because I married decent human beings, there were no serious issues when we broke up, thus confirming I didn't fuck up not documenting every little thing in a secure location. I just thought it interesting she knew(?) she needed to document it all because of the type of human being she married and with whom she had children.

It is insurance. Just like having other forms of insurance. I have paid a lot of money for my very expensive disability insurance. Didn't use it, but it was nice to have if needed. Same as what she was doing. People change, hide things about themselves, and divorces can get very ugly. Saw a friend of my wife who was a SAHM go through this. Husband did all kinds of things to hurt her. Wouldn't have believed he was capable of what he did

[NastyWoman]

I wish I had been smart enough to do something like this. Though we had no company to divide, as an expat spouse getting work permits was impossible so I was  SAHM by default, I should have had a backup plan. Thanks to a good dose of luck (mostly timing*), innate abilities (freebies at birth), and some really hard work I came out just fine but without those first two factors things could have gone quite badly for me.

* I re-entered the workforce just shy of 50yo. But the economy was hot so you could almost always get a job if you could fog up a mirror, and by the time the dotcom tech bust came around I had proven myself so I avoided the RIFs that came with it. But 50 -60 hour weeks were standard for me for the next two decades.

[billisonboard]

Aug 2, 2024 13:45:43 GMT -5 The Walk of the Penguin Mich said:

Aug 2, 2024 13:36:20 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Who said bad thing? I have gone through divorces. Because I married decent human beings, there were no serious issues when we broke up, thus confirming I didn't fuck up not documenting every little thing in a secure location. I just thought it interesting she knew(?) she needed to document it all because of the type of human being she married and with whom she had children.

My sister pulled the down payment for their house from her IRA that she had….before she even met her ex.  Fast forward 24 years, the ex shredded all proof that she, on her own, had made a considerable (25%) investment in their home purchase.  He contributed 0.  

You never know how much of an asshole someone will be in going through a divorce.  Just because nothing happened to you doesn’t mean that it doesn’t happen to others.  To assume it doesn’t is naive.

TBH, what harm is it.  If it’s never needed….great.  If it is, you have proof when you need it of your contribution.

I believe we manifest our reality, positive and negative, by our actions. So that colors my opinion and where I see potential harm. One could be in a relationship in which you openly document things (securely) or in one where it is done in secret. It was the secrecy that I find interesting, not the documenting.

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

Aug 2, 2024 14:06:42 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Aug 2, 2024 13:45:43 GMT -5 The Walk of the Penguin Mich said:

My sister pulled the down payment for their house from her IRA that she had….before she even met her ex.  Fast forward 24 years, the ex shredded all proof that she, on her own, had made a considerable (25%) investment in their home purchase.  He contributed 0.  

You never know how much of an asshole someone will be in going through a divorce.  Just because nothing happened to you doesn’t mean that it doesn’t happen to others.  To assume it doesn’t is naive.

TBH, what harm is it.  If it’s never needed….great.  If it is, you have proof when you need it of your contribution.

I believe we manifest our reality, positive and negative, by our actions. So that colors my opinion and where I see potential harm. One could be in a relationship in which you openly document things (securely) or in one where it is done in secret. It was the secrecy that I find interesting, not the documenting.

?  This makes absolutely sense.  My sister had documentation of her contribution in a folder of house papers.  It was not secret.  Had it been secret, she’d be sitting in a much better place today.  Her ex shredded the whole folder.  

So I’m not getting the point you are trying to make.  Should she have taken the copies and digitized them and stashed them secretly, or not?  

[NastyWoman]

Aug 2, 2024 13:36:20 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Aug 2, 2024 13:22:26 GMT -5 The Walk of the Penguin Mich said:

Why?  50% of marriages end up in divorce.  Why is should you covering your butt (regardless of reason) be a bad thing?  

Who said bad thing? I have gone through divorces. Because I married decent human beings, there were no serious issues when we broke up, thus confirming I didn't fuck up not documenting every little thing in a secure location. I just thought it interesting she knew(?) she needed to document it all because of the type of human being she married and with whom she had children.

I will counter this with something I have said IRL countless times: "I married the right man. I also divorced the right man".  Even though these men lived in the same body they were by no means the same person. Nor was I for that matter but really if you document things it is not necessarily because of the person you married but because of the person you might divorce.

[billisonboard]

Aug 2, 2024 14:20:13 GMT -5 The Walk of the Penguin Mich said:

Aug 2, 2024 14:06:42 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

I believe we manifest our reality, positive and negative, by our actions. So that colors my opinion and where I see potential harm. One could be in a relationship in which you openly document things (securely) or in one where it is done in secret. It was the secrecy that I find interesting, not the documenting.

?  This makes absolutely sense.  My sister had documentation of her contribution in a folder of house papers.  It was not secret.  Had it been secret, she’d be sitting in a much better place today.  Her ex shredded the whole folder.  

So I’m not getting the point you are trying to make.  Should she have taken the copies and digitized them and stashed them secretly, or not?  

After 24 years of shared living in a house, fighting over the details of the down payment sounds like a piece of a ugly situation. No idea what she should have done over the course of the marriage.

[billisonboard]

Aug 2, 2024 14:28:32 GMT -5 NastyWoman said:

Aug 2, 2024 13:36:20 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Who said bad thing? I have gone through divorces. Because I married decent human beings, there were no serious issues when we broke up, thus confirming I didn't fuck up not documenting every little thing in a secure location. I just thought it interesting she knew(?) she needed to document it all because of the type of human being she married and with whom she had children.

I will counter this with something I have said IRL countless times: "I married the right man. I also divorced the right man".  Even though these men lived in the same body they were by no means the same person. Nor was I for that matter but really if you document things it is not necessarily because of the person you married but because of the person you might divorce.

and the person you have become.

[Opti]

Aug 2, 2024 14:28:32 GMT -5 NastyWoman said:

Aug 2, 2024 13:36:20 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Who said bad thing? I have gone through divorces. Because I married decent human beings, there were no serious issues when we broke up, thus confirming I didn't fuck up not documenting every little thing in a secure location. I just thought it interesting she knew(?) she needed to document it all because of the type of human being she married and with whom she had children.

I will counter this with something I have said IRL countless times: "I married the right man. I also divorced the right man".  Even though these men lived in the same body they were by no means the same person. Nor was I for that matter but really if you document things it is not necessarily because of the person you married but because of the person you might divorce.

Good point. I knew someone years ago who got to discover on his wedding night into honeymoon etc. that his wife had been raped. She repressed it, so neither of them knew there was a problem until after they were married.

If he stayed married he might have to live without sex for his entire marriage. If he did divorce her, he would never attain any position higher in his church except member of the congregation. You cannot know what you don't know. 

[obelisk]

with a 50%+divorce rate, I understand why most of my younger coworkers do not want to participate in a marriage union both female and male and what else.

[billisonboard]

Aug 3, 2024 10:34:32 GMT -5 obelisk said:

with a 50%+divorce rate, I understand why most of my younger coworkers do not want to participate in a marriage union both female and male and what else.

There is all the emotional sides to "marriage" and "divorce" but there is also practical sides to it. It is a contractual agreement that takes a formal process to dissolve. If one starts to become more involved financially with another, it provides a framework to resolve problems if necessary. If children become involved, it can help there as well. Many relationships end. I think at times not ever doing some paperwork to formalize the relationship just to avoid "divorce" is shortsighted.

[mollyc]

In the interest of avoiding things I didn’t want to do, I clicked the link and read some of the comments.

Her issue wasn’t with her husband. He was surprised because it seemed more materialistic than he expected from her. After discussion, they agreed to a 49%/51% split so he still had control but she has a stake in the business’ success.

Her issue was with her friends not supporting her. I agree that her friends were unsupportive.

I’ve run across the other story brought up. The parents had been married a long time with the mom being a stay at home wife/mother. The son was trying to get his parents to help convince his wife to give up her job and be like his mother when she didn’t want to.

In that interest, the mother explained what she had done so that she would feel secure in her situation. The mother documented everything she had done so, if necessary, she could prove she had contributed to the business and deserved a share of it. Maybe the mother was just paranoid or maybe she had years of experience with her husband where ours becomes his whenever he wanted. I don’t think she ever said.


She wasn’t collecting data because she was planning on leaving. She was just covering her bases for her own peace of mind. People don’t recommend you just trust a business partner's word, no matter how long you’ve known them. Why should it be different with a spouse?

[Opti]

Aug 2, 2024 14:06:42 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Aug 2, 2024 13:45:43 GMT -5 The Walk of the Penguin Mich said:

My sister pulled the down payment for their house from her IRA that she had….before she even met her ex.  Fast forward 24 years, the ex shredded all proof that she, on her own, had made a considerable (25%) investment in their home purchase.  He contributed 0.  

You never know how much of an asshole someone will be in going through a divorce.  Just because nothing happened to you doesn’t mean that it doesn’t happen to others.  To assume it doesn’t is naive.

TBH, what harm is it.  If it’s never needed….great.  If it is, you have proof when you need it of your contribution.

I believe we manifest our reality, positive and negative, by our actions. So that colors my opinion and where I see potential harm. One could be in a relationship in which you openly document things (securely) or in one where it is done in secret. It was the secrecy that I find interesting, not the documenting.

I believe this as well, but it is good to remember this does not occur in a vacuum. It is not only you and your spouse thinking and manifesting. It is all the people around you. It is global conditions. I did not plan for the pandemic, but it came for me anyway and disrupted plans. Heck Trump being elected while I am FT working poor started the head games and worry. 

[obelisk]

I would cover my bases with peace of mind moving forward in a marriage especially with a stay at home partner.

[scgal]

In today's times being a stay at home parent is a privilege. Too bad many don't recognize that. It is harder for a family to make it on 1 income, and when both parents work to some degree kids do suffer. 

I also know that both parents work for not just living but to keep an elevated lifestyle they put that lifestyle ahead of the kids. I was very blessed that I was able to stay home to raise my girls. My husband missed a lot because of work but he made up for it. He didn't have a man cave to hide in and play online video games (not really a thing yet). He spent his free time with the family. I never thought of myself losing out in a career because I was sahm there is no better career than that. When my kids grown to adults I finished my 2nd degree and worked, life is good.

I know of couples where the father stays home and the mom works. Those men are super lucky because it is not very common

[Rukh O'Rorke]

In counter to the above, an unexpected dividend of my career was seeing how quickly DD took off professionally. I hadn’t fully realized how having a professional mother helped her along.

Wondering if the kids of wfh parents learn even more.

Entering the work world was a mystery. Now many have seen a peek ongoing in childhood.

[giramomma]

Honestly, I think it's up to the individual family to do what's right by them, whatever space they are in.

What works for me and my family doesn't work for others. How they chose to run their families...really it's none of my business.

I don't owe anyone an explanation on how we chose to run our family. Others don't owe an explanation to me.

I have skimmed, but it seems like folks should take a cue from the Pope. "Who am I to judge."

[giramomma]

Aug 3, 2024 11:33:40 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Aug 3, 2024 10:34:32 GMT -5 obelisk said:

with a 50%+divorce rate, I understand why most of my younger coworkers do not want to participate in a marriage union both female and male and what else.

There is all the emotional sides to "marriage" and "divorce" but there is also practical sides to it. It is a contractual agreement that takes a formal process to dissolve. If one starts to become more involved financially with another, it provides a framework to resolve problems if necessary. If children become involved, it can help there as well. Many relationships end. I think at times not ever doing some paperwork to formalize the relationship just to avoid "divorce" is shortsighted.

We've taught our kids that if they partner up without marriage, they still need to see a lawyer to get paperwork in place about how to divide assets incase they split. And wills, life insurance, all of that should happen.

It's cheaper to go to city hall and get the license. But, whatever.

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

Aug 9, 2024 8:16:17 GMT -5 giramomma said:

Aug 3, 2024 11:33:40 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

There is all the emotional sides to "marriage" and "divorce" but there is also practical sides to it. It is a contractual agreement that takes a formal process to dissolve. If one starts to become more involved financially with another, it provides a framework to resolve problems if necessary. If children become involved, it can help there as well. Many relationships end. I think at times not ever doing some paperwork to formalize the relationship just to avoid "divorce" is shortsighted.

We've taught our kids that if they partner up without marriage, they still need to see a lawyer to get paperwork in place about how to divide assets incase they split. And wills, life insurance, all of that should happen.

It's cheaper to go to city hall and get the license. But, whatever.

I'd add know the laws of the state you live in.  You may think it will be easy to separate if you aren't married but then surprise!  You've been together long enough that the state considers you married.

Personally I think marriage as an institution and marriage as a legality should be separate.  The reason they are tied together is so freaking icky if you read the history of marriage.

I also think it would get people to think about how serious it is.  I mean marry for love all you want but if you have to sit and do all the legal paperwork beforehand too it's going to make you really think before you entangle your life with said person.

I drive DH insane because while I love him very much I view marriage as it stands a legal/business transaction.  I can still love him and want to be with him forever without being actually married.  Being married comes with a host of legal situations I need to weigh.  I may love you but not want to entangle myself with you that way.

My dad and L have no plans on getting married and Iowa is not a common law state.  At their ages getting married would complicate things regarding SS benefits and could really hurt the other person if one or the other has to go in a home.  Comingling assets comes with no real upside.  

[TheOtherMe]

Colorado is a common law state and I can't tell you how many people I "married".  

My mom's little brother is living in sin because of her much higher SS benefits and a pension from her husband.  Mom insisted they didn't share a bedroom.  

Yes, mom was very naive.  

When I did senior bowling with my dad there was a couple both over 90 that bowled.  They were living in sin because of SS.  I never understood why but he rented a very basic room because he thought he needed to have his own address.  They lived in a very nice apartment.  

[zibazinski]

Aug 2, 2024 14:20:13 GMT -5 The Walk of the Penguin Mich said:

Aug 2, 2024 14:06:42 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

I believe we manifest our reality, positive and negative, by our actions. So that colors my opinion and where I see potential harm. One could be in a relationship in which you openly document things (securely) or in one where it is done in secret. It was the secrecy that I find interesting, not the documenting.

?  This makes absolutely sense.  My sister had documentation of her contribution in a folder of house papers.  It was not secret.  Had it been secret, she’d be sitting in a much better place today.  Her ex shredded the whole folder.  

So I’m not getting the point you are trying to make.  Should she have taken the copies and digitized them and stashed them secretly, or not?  

There’s a traceable paper trail including her IRA withdrawal.

[zibazinski]

Aug 2, 2024 15:26:06 GMT -5 Opti said:

Aug 2, 2024 14:28:32 GMT -5 NastyWoman said:

I will counter this with something I have said IRL countless times: "I married the right man. I also divorced the right man".  Even though these men lived in the same body they were by no means the same person. Nor was I for that matter but really if you document things it is not necessarily because of the person you married but because of the person you might divorce.

Good point. I knew someone years ago who got to discover on his wedding night into honeymoon etc. that his wife had been raped. She repressed it, so neither of them knew there was a problem until after they were married.

If he stayed married he might have to live without sex for his entire marriage. If he did divorce her, he would never attain any position higher in his church except member of the congregation. You cannot know what you don't know. 

That’s why there’s a thing called “ annulment.”

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

Aug 9, 2024 14:18:46 GMT -5 zibazinski said:

Aug 2, 2024 14:20:13 GMT -5 The Walk of the Penguin Mich said:

?  This makes absolutely sense.  My sister had documentation of her contribution in a folder of house papers.  It was not secret.  Had it been secret, she’d be sitting in a much better place today.  Her ex shredded the whole folder.  

So I’m not getting the point you are trying to make.  Should she have taken the copies and digitized them and stashed them secretly, or not?  

There’s a traceable paper trail including her IRA withdrawal.

Unfortunately, not after 24 years.  She went back to the investment firms and they don’t keep records that long.