Games

[djAdvocate]

i had a thought as i slept last night.

every game has rules.  some rules of the game have to do with conduct.  you won't punch an opponent in the face unless that is part of the game (boxing).  some have to do with the field of play.  you can't hit the ball outside of the prescribed dimensions in tennis.  and some have to do with the game itself.  you only have 24 second per possession in basketball.  

but there are also some rules that are so basic that they are unwritten.  for example, when you are a contestant in a game, you agree to play by the rules of the game.  you also agree to have basic serial respect and decency toward your opponent.  and finally, you agree to be graceful in defeat.

the second pillar in the argument is that contests are sorts of games.  

the third pillar is that elections are contests.

the final notion that i would like to present is that Trump is the first candidate out of thousands that have contested for the presidency to violate ALL of those rules.  he is utterly unique.  what is different in this game is that there is no referee to kick him out.  we tried with the SCOTUS, but thusfar it has failed.  the electorate is not the referee, they are the JUDGE in the contest.  we determine the winner- but not the contestant.  for that, we rely on the referee (the parties and the courts).

so, we have a contestant that cheats.  that is what we are left with.

what shall we do about it, now and in the future?

[ken a.k.a OMK]

Hopefully we will learn from this before it is too late and trump gets to continue ruining our country. People in position to enforce these rules have to start doing so. He has gotten away with too much in the past. I'm hoping we are starting to see that now. He's not above the law. Waiting for justice there. He can't misbehave at this debate like he did in the past. Shutting off the mic is a start, but I expect them to stop the debate if he continues to attack President Biden on stage. ENFORCE the rules. Something that should have been done before. I wish Hillary had swung around with her arms out as if she didn't know he was behind her.

[swamp]

I have no idea.   Government evolved on the assumption everyone would follow the unwritten and written rules.  As far as Trump is concerned, the rules don't apply to him, so there is no way to make him follow the rules. 

I think societally we're fucked.   

[billisonboard]

We have effectively eliminated professional "gatekeepers" from the nominating process for political offices through direct primaries and are now seeing the full force of that having taken place.

[billisonboard]

Very interesting book on the "games" we humans play, much in line with the idea in the OP: Finite and Infinite Games by Carse.

EDIT to include link: en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finite_and_Infinite_Games

[djAdvocate]

i am kinda between you two.

i think we are fucked in the short term. and if we are SO FUCKED that it keeps going off the rails, we are PERMANENTLY fucked. i don't mean to exaggerate saying that. i mean it. there are democracies that get so damaged by people like Trump and the fascist cabal that is behind him that they never recover.

so that is where the decision lies right now: how fucked we are.

[ken a.k.a OMK]

By liking that   , I mean I am also concerned about our future under trump and his party. Time for the GOP to get back to their roots.

[djAdvocate]

Jun 26, 2024 9:00:15 GMT -5 ken a.k.a OMK said:

By liking that   , I mean I am also concerned about our future under trump and his party. Time for the GOP to get back to their roots.

yes.  and that MIGHT actually happen.

if the Democrats sweep public office this Fall, which is entirely possible, that would give the GOP a stark choice: continually losing, or changing.  i think that political survival MIGHT cause them to change.  

right now they are "all in" on hard right social and economic conservatism.  if they are convinced that this will mean permanent powerlessness, they MIGHT change.

[billisonboard]

Staying with the premise of the thread, I think a lot depends on how the two candidates play the debate game tomorrow night. Will Biden be up for the game? Will Trump employ a conventional strategy? And will the referees (moderators) control the contestants? I think the early calls will be important on that front. The pre-season is over and the first real game is about to begin.

[billisonboard]

Jun 26, 2024 9:27:26 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Jun 26, 2024 9:00:15 GMT -5 ken a.k.a OMK said:

By liking that   , I mean I am also concerned about our future under trump and his party. Time for the GOP to get back to their roots.

yes.  and that MIGHT actually happen.

if the Democrats sweep public office this Fall, which is entirely possible, that would give the GOP a stark choice: continually losing, or changing.  i think that political survival MIGHT cause them to change.  

right now they are "all in" on hard right social and economic conservatism.  if they are convinced that this will mean permanent powerlessness, they MIGHT change.

There are at least three general groups of Republicans. There is the professional political class. There is the knee jerk person on the street (now MAGA). There is a policy driven person. If the Republicans lose, it will be cheating and the fault of the RINO's for too many the GOP. Not a recipe for change.

[thyme4change]

Jun 25, 2024 11:40:28 GMT -5 swamp said:

I have no idea.   Government evolved on the assumption everyone would follow the unwritten and written rules.  As far as Trump is concerned, the rules don't apply to him, so there is no way to make him follow the rules. 

I think societally we're fucked.   

I heard someone say that we didn’t even realize how many accepted norms our country relied on until Trump and the GOP started pushing every boundary. And now any opposers are in a moral gray area between needing to hold the norms to save our flavor of democracy and the need to break the rules to compete.

Quite tricky.

Even if every Republican loses this fall - Trump will be a danger until he dies. The longer he lives the more ingrained his influence will be. Luckily, he is almost 80. Unfortunately, he could live 20 more years.

[djAdvocate]

it is not that tricky if you believe in the norms more than power.

that is where Democrats are.

[billisonboard]

Something akin to:

When Henry Clay explained his loss to Jackson for the presidency in 1832, he said, “I would rather be right than president.” link

[teen persuasion]

Jun 26, 2024 9:36:00 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Staying with the premise of the thread, I think a lot depends on how the two candidates play the debate game tomorrow night. Will Biden be up for the game? Will Trump employ a conventional strategy? And will the referees (moderators) control the contestants? I think the early calls will be important on that front. The pre-season is over and the first real game is about to begin.

Spot on. I'm already fed up and have turned the "debate" off. Trump isn't answering moderators' questions, he's just using his 2 minutes to spout off as many talking points bashing Biden as he can. Biden answers the question and cedes  back his time. Trump then spends another long time bashing Biden. And repeat. Moderators are not saying peep, no stopping him, no fact checking, NOTHING.

I can't take any more of his verbal crap. I had to tune out.