FatFIRE, LeanFIRE or plain FIRE?

[finnime]

Which style is for you? Retire early with a high rate of expenditure expected to continue indefinitely, or be scrupulously frugal, or do you run between the two? A NY Times article describes the variations and what happens as some people retire very early. The point is well made, that working a W2 job does not define meaning in life for most people, but doing something valuable is important.

I admire the freedom of the FatFIREr profiled and hope he finds some way to happily exploit his gifts.

[minnesotapaintlady]

There are so many variations of FIRE now.  Fat, Lean, Coast, Barista, Cash-Flow...

I consider myself Coast at this point and shooting for plain FIRE.

[busymom]

Well, first of all we have no plan to retire early.  Both DH & I come from "good stock", meaning our relatives tend to live to be VERY old.  So, obviously we're concerned about running out of money.  We plan to be conservative in our spending as we age, and DH wants to work as long as possible.  I know, retiring early would be nice, but running out of money when you're too old to get out there & make more would be awful.  

[finnime]

It's not uncommon to retire early regardless of your plans. Ask me how I know!

It would be nice to be free to quit or retire if working in a particular situation is wearying. NancysSummerSip has my admiration.

[Rukh O'Rorke]

May 8, 2024 7:37:12 GMT -5 minnesotapaintlady said:

There are so many variations of FIRE now.  Fat, Lean, Coast, Barista, Cash-Flow...

I consider myself Coast at this point and shooting for plain FIRE.

2.5 mil is still just regular? I guess I can agree with the way inflaiton has played havoc with my spending the past few years.

[minnesotapaintlady]

May 8, 2024 10:24:52 GMT -5 Rukh O'Rorke said:

May 8, 2024 7:37:12 GMT -5 minnesotapaintlady said:

There are so many variations of FIRE now.  Fat, Lean, Coast, Barista, Cash-Flow...

I consider myself Coast at this point and shooting for plain FIRE.

2.5 mil is still just regular? I guess I can agree with the way inflaiton has played havoc with my spending the past few years.

Well, it's kind of a loosey goosey chart.   There are so many factors like COL and married vs. single. 

A married couple with two social security checks in a LCOL area would be living pretty high on the hog with 2.5 million.

[giramomma]

So, I think a pension can mess with this.

I can get a pension in 7 years.  Looking at the pension alone, that will provide for low fire at 56.  Pension+investments should put us in regular fire.

There's a good chance we'll end up at fat fire at some point, due to inheritance.

We'll still need to plan for a 100K health insurance bill from 60-65...so I can't fully stop working in 7 years. That and we'll still have a minor child at home. I'm not quite comfortable going though the HS years with no income coming in.

[tallguy]

May 8, 2024 10:24:52 GMT -5 Rukh O'Rorke said:

May 8, 2024 7:37:12 GMT -5 minnesotapaintlady said:

There are so many variations of FIRE now.  Fat, Lean, Coast, Barista, Cash-Flow...

I consider myself Coast at this point and shooting for plain FIRE.

2.5 mil is still just regular? I guess I can agree with the way inflaiton has played havoc with my spending the past few years.

I would suggest that under the general definition of FIRE the amount fits.  Remember that we are talking about people who are retiring in their 30s and 40s.  You can maybe stretch the definition to include early 50s, but I wouldn't.  By the time one hits mid-50s, certainly, it is no longer FIRE.  They are just retiring early, and didn't have to join some "movement" or make some tremendous sacrifice to do it.  And those FIRE people will need more saved to make up for all of the zero years in their Social Security calculations limiting that income.  Besides, they probably just cut it there because $100,000 per year income is a nice, round number.      

[Rukh O'Rorke]

May 8, 2024 10:41:20 GMT -5 minnesotapaintlady said:

May 8, 2024 10:24:52 GMT -5 Rukh O'Rorke said:

2.5 mil is still just regular? I guess I can agree with the way inflaiton has played havoc with my spending the past few years.

Well, it's kind of a loosey goosey chart.   There are so many factors like COL and married vs. single. 

A married couple with two social security checks in a LCOL area would be living pretty high on the hog with 2.5 million.

chart didnt mention SS!

[minnesotapaintlady]

May 8, 2024 16:52:35 GMT -5 Rukh O'Rorke said:

May 8, 2024 10:41:20 GMT -5 minnesotapaintlady said:

Well, it's kind of a loosey goosey chart.   There are so many factors like COL and married vs. single. 

A married couple with two social security checks in a LCOL area would be living pretty high on the hog with 2.5 million.

chart didnt mention SS!

No.  It doesn't take into account any supplemental income.  It's just meant to show the savings that is required to draw the desired amount, supposedly indefinitely (although I would be nervous to depend on a 4% draw for 50+ years).

Someone retiring at 45 isn't going to be getting any SS for a long, long time.

[azucena]

I keep looking at that chart and thinking I'd love to have $548/day and wondering what's the starting age and life expectancy used for that calc 

[tallguy]

May 8, 2024 18:22:08 GMT -5 azucena said:

I keep looking at that chart and thinking I'd love to have $548/day and wondering what's the starting age and life expectancy used for that calc 

There isn't one.  It's not that kind of chart.  "If you have this balance you can expect this income (using the 4% rule.)"  The 4% rule is generally considered a safe withdrawal rate (SWR) because it is expected to last indefinitely where you will never run out of money.  Conversely, it can be looked at the other way.  "If you need this amount per year you will need this balance to provide it."   

[busymom]

May 8, 2024 18:22:08 GMT -5 azucena said:

I keep looking at that chart and thinking I'd love to have $548/day and wondering what's the starting age and life expectancy used for that calc 

    Well, that would at least be enough for a Coach purse on sale, and a few crab legs.   

[finnime]

May 9, 2024 13:10:24 GMT -5 busymom said:

May 8, 2024 18:22:08 GMT -5 azucena said:

I keep looking at that chart and thinking I'd love to have $548/day and wondering what's the starting age and life expectancy used for that calc 

    Well, that would at least be enough for a Coach purse on sale, and a few crab legs.   

That's a perfect summary of retirement goals. What more could a person want?

[Rukh O'Rorke]

Not sure if I ever answered the original question in the OP. I'd love to have fat fire, but I don't think I can get there/wouldn't get there even if it seemed imminent as i am too damn old to wait!

meanwhile....I am supposedly in the regular fire range, but it's be lean-in-a-not-good way if I pulled the plug now. Sure - I could make it work, and likely be pretty plush if I radically altered my lifestyle in painful ways - such as selling the house and rehoming the cats (as I have too many to rent or live in a condo. I suppose a small house way out where could be an option that is equally unpalatable). 

As I mentioned on another thread, things really open up when I get to the end of some of these debt payments, but the student loans aren't even close to half way finished, ditto the car I got in 22.

And while it sure seemed a good idea at the time (and probably was!!) having nearly everything in pretax accounts presents its own challenges in managing things. As an example, in retirement I'd like to consider paying off a lot of these debts just at the get go and forget about them. But that would mean pulling 200-250 income out for the year and that would trigger a huge tax bite (and I don't want to burn up my precious and few Roth monies either!). I just never had enough income to max out 401k and put a lot into taxable. and most of what was taxable got spent along the way too. 

My only real path to Fatfire is to regular fire without going too lean and then be blessed with significant headwinds in the market to take me over the top. But as I shore up for the opposite scenario with more cash and hedging against a market downturn, having a headwind strong enough to do that on less than 95% or more of assets in stocks becomes less likely.

Just gotta ride whatever train we are on I suppose and see where we get.....

[Rukh O'Rorke]

May 10, 2024 2:51:19 GMT -5 finnime said:

May 9, 2024 13:10:24 GMT -5 busymom said:

    Well, that would at least be enough for a Coach purse on sale, and a few crab legs.   

That's a perfect summary of retirement goals. What more could a person want?

Lol, leaves us vegans in a bind though!

How about this handbag?


agfundernews.com/brief-modern-synthesis-and-ganni-unveil-bou-bag-made-by-bacteria-for-london-design-festival

and some really high end tofu??

[NastyWoman]

I am a proud FIR (financially independent retired). FIRE never was in the cards for me as a late in life divorce left me with very little (though without debt) in my early 50s - hence my "proud" claim

[❤ mollymouser ❤]

We're not on fire. We're not even smoldering or sizzling, lol.

We've been a single-income family (husband) for the past 20 years or so. I'm 59 and he's 58.
My plan is to start collect SS in three years, when I hit 62.

My husband gets a military pension. (8407/month ~ gross)
My husband also gets VA disability. (3823/month ~ non-taxable)
(Gross, that's 146,760 annually)

He has $350,000 in the TSP (like a military 401K).

And, currently, he's been employed in the private sector and has been putting money into a 401K since last July.
He's maxxing it, and will continue to do so for as long as he's employed. Vanguard.

We live in a high cost of living area (California), but we're debt free and have no children.

Because he's retired military, we've got Tricare for retirees (now) and will have Tricare for Life once we hit 65 and Medicare. The premiums are low and our annual out-of-pocket max is $3,000 or so.

If he dies before me, I will still get 55% of his pension, and we have a LOT of life insurance on him (to make up for the loss of the other half of his pension and the loss of his VA disability.)  With my health issues, the odds are that I won't outlive him, but having the insurance gives us peace of mind.

We're hoping this will be fine for us.

[minnesotapaintlady]

May 11, 2024 20:40:20 GMT -5 ❤ mollymouser ❤ said:

We're not on fire. We're not even smoldering or sizzling, lol.

Um...I think 12K/month before adding on SS is pretty sizzling. 

[cronewitch]

I am 76 now so a bit old for FIRE. The 4% rule is just a wild guess at what will last you 30 years. In real life nobody does 4%. My returns are more like 15% so I can take out a large amount. Problem is nothing to spend a high amount on. I am thrifty and get enough social security to live on. I paid cash for a new car so no payments and it will last the rest of my life. I spend little bits of money like $50 on Walmartdotcom. My car is 4 months old now and so far I spent $30 on gas, it came with gas. I spent $90 on groceries this week and got everything I wanted and it will last several weeks. I give away more money than I spend on junk for me. 

[Rukh O'Rorke]

May 11, 2024 15:23:21 GMT -5 NastyWoman said:

I am a proud FIR (financially independent retired). FIRE never was in the cards for me as a late in life divorce left me with very little (though without debt) in my early 50s - hence my "proud" claim

I guess that will be me too. FIR. I'll be 60 later this year so I think anything with that final E is off the table if you are double digits and start with anything over a 6.

Backtory was different, raising 2 kids on a shoestring for many years from a fairly young age. I am hoping that I am laying the foundation for FI for the family firever  . With robotics and ai, I don't know if my kids can look forward to steady employment for the next 30 years. They both have Roth and 401k but balances are not high as yet. If AI takes over in 15 years they could be in decent shape on their own. But if it is 3 years then they won't have nearly enough.

Anyway - keeps me getting up and logging in to VPN! Otherwise, even though the numbers aren't quite there, I'd be inclined to say F*@& it and just wing it and hope for a good SORR for the rest of this decade - and if not then could plan a life that is 100% or close to that paid from my soc sec. 

But I'm not willing to take the chance right now. With 1-2 years of really good stock returns, I think I will be. 3 years on average returns. I know I can't guarnatee anything with certainty, so will be pulling the plug within 3 years unless something terrible occurs that somehow working another few years would somehow actually help? Building up cash so I can take a down market more in stride as I get closer.

[finnime]

I have a suspicion that DS, just 30, may be edging to FATFire. He is saving money big time. He told me that last year he increased his savings by 110% in the market. He also won't buy a car; his lifestyle doesn't demand one and he can always rent by the day or month or Uber by the trip. He couldn't justify to himself an outlay of >$20,000, taking that out of investment play, when it isn't necessary. Maybe he's LeanFire. I don't know. He has always been a minimalist.

[tallguy]

I think anything with that final E is off the table if you are double digits and start with anything over a 6.

I'd say it's pretty much off the table if you start with a 5.  I was FIRE before FIRE had a name, with extreme saving on a relatively modest income to be able to retire early.  I knew I could retire in my mid-50s, but even that is on the border (at best) to really qualify as FIRE.  FIRE is a lifestyle, and a philosophy.  It is not simply a matter of amassing enough to retire before you can collect SS.  

[NastyWoman]

May 12, 2024 12:16:15 GMT -5 tallguy said:

I think anything with that final E is off the table if you are double digits and start with anything over a 6.

I'd say it's pretty much off the table if you start with a 5.  I was FIRE before FIRE had a name, with extreme saving on a relatively modest income to be able to retire early.  I knew I could retire in my mid-50s, but even that is on the border (at best) to really qualify as FIRE.  FIRE is a lifestyle, and a philosophy.  It is not simply a matter of amassing enough to retire before you can collect SS.  

True. But what I never read about is that this philosophy/lifestyle also means you can be very far behind in your retirement savings and still have enough to retire comfortably. How else do you think I got to where I am starting saving in my 50s as opposed to the more traditional 20s or early 30s? Some things may be harder but on the other hand at age 70 you need to have funds for the next 30 years at best v. the next 60 at age 40.

[tallguy]

May 12, 2024 12:44:56 GMT -5 NastyWoman said:

May 12, 2024 12:16:15 GMT -5 tallguy said:

I'd say it's pretty much off the table if you start with a 5.  I was FIRE before FIRE had a name, with extreme saving on a relatively modest income to be able to retire early.  I knew I could retire in my mid-50s, but even that is on the border (at best) to really qualify as FIRE.  FIRE is a lifestyle, and a philosophy.  It is not simply a matter of amassing enough to retire before you can collect SS.  

True. But what I never read about is that this philosophy/lifestyle also means you can be very far behind in your retirement savings and still have enough to retire comfortably. How else do you think I got to where I am starting saving in my 50s as opposed to the more traditional 20s or early 30s? Some things may be harder but on the other hand at age 70 you need to have funds for the next 30 years at best v. the next 60 at age 40.

You can absolutely adopt some of the same ideas and behaviors no matter when you begin, and all respect to those who do.  Anyone who gets to the point of being comfortably retired deserves respect no matter how they did it.  But if the word Early is in the name....   

People who are older and are behind are advised to do everything they can to increase their savings and investments.  That will necessarily entail some of the same ideas and choices that younger FIRE proponents advocate.  It's just not talked about the same way because there is not a label attached to it.  It is more necessity than choice at that point.  

[NastyWoman]

tallguy: I gave it a label FIR. You can always aim to be a proud and strong evergreen 

[tallguy]

May 12, 2024 13:34:27 GMT -5 NastyWoman said:

tallguy : I gave it a label FIR. You can always aim to be a proud and strong evergreen 

I've never been one to go in for labels.  I just say I retired early.  

[Rukh O'Rorke]

May 12, 2024 13:34:27 GMT -5 NastyWoman said:

tallguy : I gave it a label FIR. You can always aim to be a proud and strong evergreen 

[svwashout]

Here's some perspective on these numbers: finance.yahoo.com/news/guess-many-retire-5-million-170011124.html

"Data from the Employee Benefit Research Institute, based on the Federal Reserve’s Survey of Consumer Finances, reveals that a mere 0.1% of retirees manage to accumulate over $5 million in their retirement accounts, whereas only 3.2% amass over $1 million."

So it appears that ~97% of retirees are in the LEAN FIRE bin, assuming that these bins are per person and not per household, and that retirement accounts represent the lions share of investment net worth.

As for what constitutes "early" retirement, from www.fool.com/research/average-retirement-age/
in the latest data for 2016-2022 percentage retired by age range table, it's 1% at 40-44, 2% at 45-49, 6% at 50-54, 11% at 55-59, 32% at 60-64, 70% at 65-69, 83% at 70-74, and 88% at 75+.  Based on this data I would infer that <10% of Americans in their 50s (and <1% below age 50) are retired.

[movingforward]

Guess I am regular FIRE. 

Hoping to have enough to stop working in 5 years. I might continue to work another 2 years after that. It really just depends what is happening at the time. 

I really want to stop working early enough to enjoy traveling, hiking, etc. 

I have seen WAY too many people kick the bucket in their 70's. I can't imagine working full time past the age of 58...we will see what happens. I can see me working part-time in a bookstore or something a couple of days a week maybe.