Senate Dress Code

[billisonboard]

My two cents: We select two, combined we select 100, people to make some of the most important decisions for our country. I think they shouldn't be told how they have to dress.

Find this worth reading:Opinion: This isn’t about Ted Cruz’s shorts or John Fetterman’s hoodie

[mollyanna58]

I prefer that they not look like slobs.

It’s similar to them referring to other members as “the gentlemen from” wherever, instead of calling them a dimwit.

[Tennesseer]

I'm not sure doing the nation's business in workout clothes (especially if sweaty (ala Ted cruz)) is appropriate. I don't think wearing ties increases the productivity of senators.

A clean button down shirt (no tie) for men with slacks and comfortable shoes is fine especially when working late into the night. The same for women including sleeveless blouses.

[happyhoix]

I find it interesting that one of the loudest complainers about how unprofessional it is is Marge Greene, the woman who displayed dick ipics and who has booed the president during a state of the union address.

I would rather our representatives show up in fluffy slippers and sweat pants while being respectful and thoughtful, as opposed to wearing tiaras and evening gowns but behaving like circus monkeys.

[laterbloomer]

Dress codes are a way of reinforcing the status quo. I don't think they should exist. That said, people communicate alot by what they choose to wear. Ted Cruz wearing sweaty work out clothes reflects his general lack of respect for the office and his constituents. If I was in his district I would consider that when voting

[Icelandic Woman]

This isn't the 1950s! I live in lounge pants and jeans and I can still do my job the same way as if I were wearing a business suit or dress/skirt. In fact I think I do it better because I am comfortable. I hate dress codes. I think they are ridiculous. Wearing a suit doesn't make anyone do their job better. Yes sweaty work out clothes or a bikini is going too far but you can dress casually and still look decent. JMHO

[billisonboard]

Senate unanimously passes formal dress code

The bipartisan bill from Democratic Sen. Joe Manchin of West Virginia and Utah Republican Sen. Mitt Romney requires that members abide by a real dress code – rather than an unwritten custom – when on the Senate floor, that includes a coat, tie, and slacks for men. The resolution doesn’t specify what is deemed as business attire for women on the Senate floor.

So they decided that they did need to dictate to men what they have to wear but at least they were smart enough to leave it very generic for female attire.

[pulmonarymd]

I think this is an interesting question. I think how you present yourself matters. As a physician, I think that discussing life and death matters in a T shirt and shorts is disrespectful of the gravity of the situation. Dressing the part(especially when I was younger), helped me feel more competent, and I think added an air of competence to my interaction.

It is also situation dependent. Working in NYC and working in a Vermont are not the same. Local customs and formality matters.

These people are supposed to be adults discussing serious matters. I think they should present themselves that way. Wearing a shirt that says "let's go Brandon" is inappropriate. Formal wear such as Tuxedos is overkill. Expecting adult professionals to dress for the occasion is not too much to ask.

[giramomma]

Sept 28, 2023 12:10:33 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

I think this is an interesting question. I think how you present yourself matters. As a physician, I think that discussing life and death matters in a T shirt and shorts is disrespectful of the gravity of the situation. Dressing the part(especially when I was younger), helped me feel more competent, and I think added an air of competence to my interaction.

Well, on the flip side, when I was getting treated for breast cancer...And my breast was literally in the hands of others for things like getting little RFID chips injected into me so that they could cut all the cancer out...

The last thing on my mind was how folks were dressed.

I mean, if the drs and residents who were man handling me (quite literally, since they were men for the most part that were tending to me) were completely naked, then I'd question their competence.

I also got treated at the best cancer hospital in my state, and a pretty good ranked teaching hospital across the nation (it ranks 30th). I'm going to assume that the staff there are competent.

If the hospital decided to put my life in the hands of CNAs and say "go hog wild with her. Here's the chemo. Here's the radiation..Have at it" Then I would worry about competence..

9 months of treatment and how ALL the drs, nurses, surgeons (even the ones I didn't meet....never met the plastic surgeon that assisted in my lumpectomy), dress never crossed my mind.

Come to think of it too, when I was going to the fertility clinic to get knocked up, how folks dressed or didn't dress never crossed my mind. Now, my RE abruptly left 2 days before my IUI. So I got knocked up by a perfect stranger. Which makes for a good story, especially given DH was not in the building when I got knocked up by said stranger. And i promise you, when I was in a very compromising situation...I was like "Please god, let this work right away because I can't be shooting myself up with hormones every month." I wasn't like "ohhh, I wonder what this man has under his coat. I hope it's not a t-shirt, because then I don't know if I can trust his competence or not."

And when I was giving birth for my four kids...the dress of all the medical staff never, ever entered into the equation. My oldest kid's labor was not good. If he couldn't have been gotten out by forceps, I think I would have had to have a c-section after a day of active labor. I hadn't eaten or slept in 24 hours. What the medical staff were wearing...again, honestly, I didn't give a crap. I wanted my son out safe and healthy, and I wanted to stop throwing up. I promise I understand that whatever shoes the medical staff did or didn't wear had no bearing on either one of those things.

When I need to feel extra confident at work, I absolutely change my dress. Would I be pissed off of someone else decided to prescribe that for me..yes, yes I would.

I think we also need to be careful. Today it's bare arms. Tomorrow it's hair styles that are prescribed. Then it's oh, you are a minority that can't have a white man's hair cut, ohhh tough beans. That's a you problem. I really thought most of us were trying to not go there, instead of making policies that could unintentionally lead to keeping racism alive and well.

[pulmonarymd]

Sept 29, 2023 6:54:34 GMT -5 giramomma said:

Sept 28, 2023 12:10:33 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

I think this is an interesting question. I think how you present yourself matters. As a physician, I think that discussing life and death matters in a T shirt and shorts is disrespectful of the gravity of the situation. Dressing the part(especially when I was younger), helped me feel more competent, and I think added an air of competence to my interaction.

Well, on the flip side, when I was getting treated for breast cancer...And my breast was literally in the hands of others for things like getting little RFID chips injected into me so that they could cut all the cancer out...

The last thing on my mind was how folks were dressed.

I mean, if the drs and residents who were man handling me (quite literally, since they were men for the most part that were tending to me) were completely naked, then I'd question their competence.

I also got treated at the best cancer hospital in my state, and a pretty good ranked teaching hospital across the nation (it ranks 30th). I'm going to assume that the staff there are competent.

If the hospital decided to put my life in the hands of CNAs and say "go hog wild with her. Here's the chemo. Here's the radiation..Have at it" Then I would worry about competence..

9 months of treatment and how ALL the drs, nurses, surgeons (even the ones I didn't meet....never met the plastic surgeon that assisted in my lumpectomy), dress never crossed my mind.

Come to think of it too, when I was going to the fertility clinic to get knocked up, how folks dressed or didn't dress never crossed my mind. Now, my RE abruptly left 2 days before my IUI. So I got knocked up by a perfect stranger. Which makes for a good story, especially given DH was not in the building when I got knocked up by said stranger. And i promise you, when I was in a very compromising situation...I was like "Please god, let this work right away because I can't be shooting myself up with hormones every month." I wasn't like "ohhh, I wonder what this man has under his coat. I hope it's not a t-shirt, because then I don't know if I can trust his competence or not."

And when I was giving birth for my four kids...the dress of all the medical staff never, ever entered into the equation. My oldest kid's labor was not good. If he couldn't have been gotten out by forceps, I think I would have had to have a c-section after a day of active labor. I hadn't eaten or slept in 24 hours. What the medical staff were wearing...again, honestly, I didn't give a crap. I wanted my son out safe and healthy, and I wanted to stop throwing up. I promise I understand that whatever shoes the medical staff did or didn't wear had no bearing on either one of those things.

When I need to feel extra confident at work, I absolutely change my dress. Would I be pissed off of someone else decided to prescribe that for me..yes, yes I would.

I think we also need to be careful. Today it's bare arms. Tomorrow it's hair styles that are prescribed. Then it's oh, you are a minority that can't have a white man's hair cut, ohhh tough beans. That's a you problem. I really thought most of us were trying to not go there, instead of making policies that could unintentionally lead to keeping racism alive and well.

That is a personal experience.

A study done a few years ago asked people how they prefer their physicians to dress. They look at business attire(suit and tie for men), a white coat, scrubs, and business casual as options. The white coat was the number 1 choice, followed by the suit. Now, the study could be biased by location, age, etc. But there is data that patients do have a preference for professional dress.

There are dress codes in the hospital for safety reasons. Long fingernails harbor dangers infectious organisms. Agitated patients can grab dangling earrings and loose hair, injuring the provider. Long beards are another risk, both from an infection standpoint and risk to the individual. The idea that dress codes are unnecessary is taking it too far.

If the people who cared for you were dressed for the beach or for going clubbing, I suspect you would have noticed. I have no doubt that both the radiation and the chemotherapy area had dress codes as a patient safety protocol. You didn’t notice it because the people caring for you dressed appropriately

ETA: Here are some links about studies on patient perceptions and preferences. Women physicians who do not "look the part" have it more difficult.


jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle/2782564
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5988098/
www.medicaleconomics.com/view/how-patients-want-doctors-to-look

Again, it may not matter to you, but it does seem to matter to the majority of patients

[giramomma]

Sept 29, 2023 7:15:42 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

Sept 29, 2023 6:54:34 GMT -5 giramomma said:

There are dress codes in the hospital for safety reasons. Long fingernails harbor dangers infectious organisms. Agitated patients can grab dangling earrings and loose hair, injuring the provider. Long beards are another risk, both from an infection standpoint and risk to the individual. The idea that dress codes are unnecessary is taking it too far.

If the people who cared for you were dressed for the beach or for going clubbing, I suspect you would have noticed. I have no doubt that both the radiation and the chemotherapy area had dress codes as a patient safety protocol. You didn’t notice it because the people caring for you dressed appropriately

Right. And I get that folks were dressing per safety protocol.

Which I appreciate and would side-eye if weren't happening. Just like if I never saw the medical types wash their hands in between patients.

To my knowledge, though, not every choice for dress revolves around safety protocol. Certainly my job doesn't. And I would argue that our lawmakers are not making dress choices for safety reasons.

And, yes, I've already known I'm not like most people.

I'm hard pressed to think though that I'm so unique that "I'm the only one", much like Tiger from Winnie the Pooh.

ETA: Do you know what would bother me more than a choice of a t-shirt vs a dress shirt vs khakis vs dress pants? A dr treating me like a statistic found in studies. Or a dr basing their treatment of me based on what ever list some computer spits out and listening to the computer over me. And I actually did switch OBs because of that. My OB also wanted to treat me in such a way that his ass would be covered, whether or not I needed the treatment (which, I didn't BTW)...didn't matter. Making sure he wasn't in a position where he was sued was the most important thing to him, as a dr.

And the fact that you are telling me that most people prefer to worry about how their drs dress vs whether or not drs actually use critical thinking skills to treat patients....well, that makes me very sad for human kind.

Shoot. Even my breast cancer didn't present normally. And I am so, so grateful that the drs took the extra time to have my case reviewed by a tumor board to make sure that I was getting the right personalized treatment. I'd prefer that over them looking nice (including the white coat) and relying on whatever works for the masses.

[pulmonarymd]

Sept 29, 2023 7:32:31 GMT -5 giramomma said:

Sept 29, 2023 7:15:42 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

There are dress codes in the hospital for safety reasons. Long fingernails harbor dangers infectious organisms. Agitated patients can grab dangling earrings and loose hair, injuring the provider. Long beards are another risk, both from an infection standpoint and risk to the individual. The idea that dress codes are unnecessary is taking it too far.

If the people who cared for you were dressed for the beach or for going clubbing, I suspect you would have noticed. I have no doubt that both the radiation and the chemotherapy area had dress codes as a patient safety protocol. You didn’t notice it because the people caring for you dressed appropriately

Right. And I get that folks were dressing per safety protocol.

Which I appreciate and would side-eye if weren't happening.

To my knowledge, though, not every choice for dress revolves around safety protocol. Certainly my job doesn't. And I would argue that our lawmakers are not making dress choices for safety reasons.

And, yes, I've already known I'm not like most people.

I'm hard pressed to think though that I'm so unique that "I'm the only one", much like Tiger from Winnie the Pooh.

See the links I posted above in regards to patient preferences on physician dress. These are all pre-pandemic, so it may have changed a bit.

[Pink Cashmere]

I had a woman gynecologist that wore nice dresses and heels to work. Real heels lol. I didn’t think there was anything wrong with it, I just noticed.

When I am dealing with a professional, the way they are dressed does influence how I perceive them. I am most comfortable in jeans and t-shirts, but I don’t think they are appropriate for all situations or all jobs. 

As far as the senate, I think they should dress at least business casual when they are working. No jeans or sweatpants.

[swamp]

years ago when I used to do felony criminal defense, I was one of the "on call attorneys" when things went sideways for a witness.    We would be called up to the courthouse to speak with the witness about perjury, witness tampering, whatever was happening. 

There was a Friday i was sitting in my office doing paperwork, so i was wearing cargo shorts, a tank top, and flip flops.   And I got one of those calls.    I explained to the judge what i was wearing and why i was reluctant to show up.   I had to show up anyway.  I was mortfied to have to appear in front of a jury dressed like that.  I don't think I'm taken as seriously when I'm dressed appropriately.   

It all worked out, but i was mortified.   NFW would I EVER appear like that in a courtroom unless it was an emergency like this. 

[Spellbound454]

I think its about expectations.
You wouldn't go to an interview in your weekend sweatpants..... you'd be groomed and suited to give a good impression to potential employers.
Its what they, and members of the public expect in a business like environment.

[Opti]

Sept 29, 2023 13:17:40 GMT -5 Pink Cashmere said:

I had a woman gynecologist that wore nice dresses and heels to work. Real heels lol. I didn’t think there was anything wrong with it, I just noticed.

When I am dealing with a professional, the way they are dressed does influence how I perceive them. I am most comfortable in jeans and t-shirts, but I don’t think they are appropriate for all situations or all jobs. 

As far as the senate, I think they should dress at least business casual when they are working. No jeans or sweatpants.

I think business casual is a good line. Fetterman's hoodie does not bother me that much but seeing him and Ted Cruz in shorts and bare legged is jarring. I have seen both male and female dress shorts, but they are usually long (by the knee) and are worn with dress shoes. 

[Pink Cashmere]

Sept 29, 2023 18:41:39 GMT -5 Opti said:

Sept 29, 2023 13:17:40 GMT -5 Pink Cashmere said:

I had a woman gynecologist that wore nice dresses and heels to work. Real heels lol. I didn’t think there was anything wrong with it, I just noticed.

When I am dealing with a professional, the way they are dressed does influence how I perceive them. I am most comfortable in jeans and t-shirts, but I don’t think they are appropriate for all situations or all jobs. 

As far as the senate, I think they should dress at least business casual when they are working. No jeans or sweatpants.

I think business casual is a good line. Fetterman's hoodie does not bother me that much but seeing him and Ted Cruz in shorts and bare legged is jarring. I have seen both male and female dress shorts, but they are usually long (by the knee) and are worn with dress shoes. 

I can’t even imagine what “dress shorts” might look like. I have some shorts that I can dress up to go out in, but as “pulled together” and cute as I might feel like I look when I wear them, I can’t see them being appropriate in a business setting. 

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

Sept 29, 2023 19:23:58 GMT -5 Pink Cashmere said:

Sept 29, 2023 18:41:39 GMT -5 Opti said:

I think business casual is a good line. Fetterman's hoodie does not bother me that much but seeing him and Ted Cruz in shorts and bare legged is jarring. I have seen both male and female dress shorts, but they are usually long (by the knee) and are worn with dress shoes. 

I can’t even imagine what “dress shorts” might look like. I have some shorts that I can dress up to go out in, but as “pulled together” and cute as I might feel like I look when I wear them, I can’t see them being appropriate in a business setting. 

I've seen them. The only place I can think of is they would work on the golf course.

The mix of professional on top and down to your knees then causal from the knee down is horrid.

Very very very few men can make business shorts look appropriate.

Few women either for that matter.

Just because fashion can doesn't mean it should.

DHs mom bought him some once. I told him I ever see him in them it's grounds for divorce. A fashion faux pas that big is unforgivable.😅

[djAdvocate]

bring back the Powdered Wig.

Make America Wig Again.

[Opti]

Sept 29, 2023 19:45:33 GMT -5 NomoreDramaQ1015 said:

Sept 29, 2023 19:23:58 GMT -5 Pink Cashmere said:

I can’t even imagine what “dress shorts” might look like. I have some shorts that I can dress up to go out in, but as “pulled together” and cute as I might feel like I look when I wear them, I can’t see them being appropriate in a business setting. 

I've seen them. The only place I can think of is they would work on the golf course.

The mix of professional on top and down to your knees then causal from the knee down is horrid.

Very very very few men can make business shorts look appropriate.

Few women either for that matter.

Just because fashion can doesn't mean it should.

DHs mom bought him some once. I told him I ever see him in them it's grounds for divorce. A fashion faux pas that big is unforgivable.😅

It is a little jarring, but I remember it being something that men did in Bermuda. Looked something like the below. Although I think they usually wore shorts in dark colors that matched the jackets.

[Pink Cashmere]

Oct 1, 2023 17:26:56 GMT -5 Opti said:

Sept 29, 2023 19:45:33 GMT -5 NomoreDramaQ1015 said:

I've seen them. The only place I can think of is they would work on the golf course.

The mix of professional on top and down to your knees then causal from the knee down is horrid.

Very very very few men can make business shorts look appropriate.

Few women either for that matter.

Just because fashion can doesn't mean it should.

DHs mom bought him some once. I told him I ever see him in them it's grounds for divorce. A fashion faux pas that big is unforgivable.😅

It is a little jarring, but I remember it being something that men did in Bermuda. Looked something like the below. Although I think they usually wore shorts in dark colors that matched the jackets.

That looks awful. Even if the shorts were dark, it would look awful.

[Opti]

I think its a matter of what you are used to fashion wise. Certainly looks better than Fetterman's hoodie and athletic shorts.

[thyme4change]

I am a little sensitive to dress codes. Usually they are used to criticize women. I know lawyers who have been admonished from the bench for their skirt being too short, or their cleavage showing. If you have a dress code, it better be to make men wear underpants and not touch anyone.

[djAdvocate]

Oct 3, 2023 21:52:12 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

I am a little sensitive to dress codes. Usually they are used to criticize women. I know lawyers who have been admonished from the bench for their skirt being too short, or their cleavage showing. If you have a dress code, it better be to make men wear underpants and not touch anyone.

what the hell?  

ok, i need to hear your story.

[thyme4change]

Oct 4, 2023 7:17:41 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Oct 3, 2023 21:52:12 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

I am a little sensitive to dress codes. Usually they are used to criticize women. I know lawyers who have been admonished from the bench for their skirt being too short, or their cleavage showing. If you have a dress code, it better be to make men wear underpants and not touch anyone.

what the hell?  

ok, i need to hear your story.

Not my story, and I can’t quite recall the details - but it was a young lawyer, most people said she looked fine, but her skirt was shorter than ‘the norm’. I am sure the old creep judge thought he was being helpful. Apparently he often “mentored” young lawyers, but this was just about the only advice he gave a woman.

[djAdvocate]

<cringes>

ok.  nuff said.

[Tennesseer]

Oct 4, 2023 10:56:40 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

Oct 4, 2023 7:17:41 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

what the hell?  

ok, i need to hear your story.

Not my story, and I can’t quite recall the details - but it was a young lawyer, most people said she looked fine, but her skirt was shorter than ‘the norm’. I am sure the old creep judge thought he was being helpful. Apparently he often “mentored” young lawyers, but this was just about the only advice he gave a woman.

Years ago, Law & Order did an episode similar to what you described. But the judge in the episode was no mentor of young lawyers.

[haapai]

Sept 28, 2023 11:35:53 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Senate unanimously passes formal dress code

The bipartisan bill from Democratic Sen. Joe Manchin of West Virginia and Utah Republican Sen. Mitt Romney requires that members abide by a real dress code – rather than an unwritten custom – when on the Senate floor, that includes a coat, tie, and slacks for men. The resolution doesn’t specify what is deemed as business attire for women on the Senate floor.

So they decided that they did need to dictate to men what they have to wear but at least they were smart enough to leave it very generic for female attire.

While I generally prefer folks dressing up, especially if they are paid well enough that dressing well is not a financial burden,  I could not read this without imagining a male Senator both legs amputated being dinged by this code.  Are those cut off and tucked in slacks actually slacks or are they shorts?  Even worse, imagine a male triple amputee (no legs, one arm) who chooses to wear a kilt instead of forcing someone else to work his zipper and buckle his belt. 

[haapai]

Oct 1, 2023 18:32:49 GMT -5 Pink Cashmere said:

Oct 1, 2023 17:26:56 GMT -5 Opti said:

It is a little jarring, but I remember it being something that men did in Bermuda. Looked something like the below. Although I think they usually wore shorts in dark colors that matched the jackets.

That looks awful. Even if the shorts were dark, it would look awful.

The problem is the calf-covering socks.  Lose them and match the bottoms to the jacket and it works.  It also helps if the jacket ends closer to the waist.  I find it quite remarkable how uniformly the shorts on this trio fit and how all-over-the-place their jackets end.  They look like smocks, at least on the pale guys. 

Tupenu, a fitted jacket, and a ta'ovala can look damn smart.  Don't ask me how it is done.  A ta'ovala is basically a short mat worn around the waist, which kills the silhouette, but some guys can pull it off.  I can only speculate that if you have to wear something for church every single Sunday, you'll make it work.