This is about as clear as can be

[Opti]

www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2020/11/right-wing-militias-civil-war/616473/


Stewart rhodes was living his vision of the future. On television, American cities were burning, while on the internet, rumors warned that antifa bands were coming to terrorize the suburbs. Rhodes was driving around South Texas, getting ready for them. He answered his phone. “Let’s not fuck around,” he said. “We’ve descended into civil war.”

Most people in RL knew there was no civil war. There were no bands of antifa waiting in the wings. 

[Rukh O'Rorke]

Sept 9, 2023 13:08:46 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Sept 9, 2023 12:37:12 GMT -5 Rukh O'Rorke said:

Typical response to someone who has a plausible, yet differing point of view than yourself. You lessen yourself and the credibility of your argument with such tactics.


To do? I'm in the middle of one of the bluest cities in one of the bluest states in the country. I will wish you all good luck if it comes to that. 

You criticize people for what they have posted in regards to the situation and then you let us know you got nothing better to offer. Yes, I offered a joking response. And you criticize that as well. I live in the middle of a red town in a red region of a blue state. My opinion is that we don't need your luck. We need intelligent responses to the situation. And that includes not overreacting. I would like to hear ideas on what we should be doing that others think would be effective. 

I wouldn't be too comfortable in your bluest of blue world. No matter how few, you do have local right wing radicals plus no walls surrounding you. Where/who do you think they will attack when they feel disrespected and dismissed?

I didn't "criticize" people for what they posted - I posted an alternate POV. Which you mocked, acting like my more concerned pov was equivalent to a panicked child running around aimlessly. Hardly.

And yes - I criticized you for posting a mocking post. Obviously - you have nothing of substance to add. Seemingly so thin-skinned you interpret a different POV as criticism (I didn't quote you, I did not reference you in one bit). I was merely agreeing with latebloomer and disagreeing with the generalized sentiment that this was not going to be an huge issue. 

You then tried to on me to find a solution. To offer "intelligent solutions". Why? YOU don't even think there's going to an issue! Why would I offer you solutions to something you are clearly stating isn't a problem?

But suddenly now it is a problem, which my blue enmeshment is not likely to withstand. So now we have gone from it being a complete non-issue, to violence within the cidetal of blueness.

So which is it? Why are you jockeying around from one extreme to another? This smacks to me of not debating the issue in good faith at all. Which I have very little interest or patience in engaging with. I'm in the middle of cooking a fantastic, so-blue-it-hurts luncheon, so I can't be bothered overmuch.


For those interested, it is my acclaimed tofu kung pao - completely vegan, gluten free, mostly certified organic or grown in the garden ingredients, and of course stemming from immigrants bringing their cuisines with them to the US.....

[djAdvocate]

Sept 9, 2023 14:40:10 GMT -5 Rukh O'Rorke said:

Sept 9, 2023 13:08:46 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

You criticize people for what they have posted in regards to the situation and then you let us know you got nothing better to offer. Yes, I offered a joking response. And you criticize that as well. I live in the middle of a red town in a red region of a blue state. My opinion is that we don't need your luck. We need intelligent responses to the situation. And that includes not overreacting. I would like to hear ideas on what we should be doing that others think would be effective. 

I wouldn't be too comfortable in your bluest of blue world. No matter how few, you do have local right wing radicals plus no walls surrounding you. Where/who do you think they will attack when they feel disrespected and dismissed?

I didn't "criticize" people for what they posted - I posted an alternate POV. Which you mocked, acting like my more concerned pov was equivalent to a panicked child running around aimlessly. Hardly.

And yes - I criticized you for posting a mocking post. Obviously - you have nothing of substance to add. Seemingly so thin-skinned you interpret a different POV as criticism (I didn't quote you, I did not reference you in one bit). I was merely agreeing with latebloomer and disagreeing with the generalized sentiment that this was not going to be an huge issue. 

You then tried to on me to find a solution. To offer "intelligent solutions". Why? YOU don't even think there's going to an issue! Why would I offer you solutions to something you are clearly stating isn't a problem?

But suddenly now it is a problem, which my blue enmeshment is not likely to withstand. So now we have gone from it being a complete non-issue, to violence within the cidetal of blueness.

So which is it? Why are you jockeying around from one extreme to another? This smacks to me of not debating the issue in good faith at all. Which I have very little interest or patience in engaging with. I'm in the middle of cooking a fantastic, so-blue-it-hurts luncheon, so I can't be bothered overmuch.


For those interested, it is my acclaimed tofu kung pao - completely vegan, gluten free, mostly certified organic or grown in the garden ingredients, and of course stemming from immigrants bringing their cuisines with them to the US.....

i was a bit surprised by your post, Rukh.  i have come to kind of appreciate Biden.  i think his political skills and instincts are good, and he gets things done.  he has respect for the office, and cares about the image of the US, and it's place in the world.  that is about as much as i can expect from any president, ime.  

having said that, i didn't vote for Biden, and won't vote for him this time.  that is because my vote doesn't matter much in a deep blue state.  i have the freedom to choose who i want.  and i want an anti-interventionist president.  neither mainstream candidate will be that in the next election, ergo.....

all a president has to do to win my vote is say they will cut defense spending 40%, and invest it in US infrastructure.  that's it.  nothing more or less.

[billisonboard]

Sept 9, 2023 14:40:10 GMT -5 Rukh O'Rorke said:

Sept 9, 2023 13:08:46 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

You criticize people for what they have posted in regards to the situation and then you let us know you got nothing better to offer. Yes, I offered a joking response. And you criticize that as well. I live in the middle of a red town in a red region of a blue state. My opinion is that we don't need your luck. We need intelligent responses to the situation. And that includes not overreacting. I would like to hear ideas on what we should be doing that others think would be effective. 

I wouldn't be too comfortable in your bluest of blue world. No matter how few, you do have local right wing radicals plus no walls surrounding you. Where/who do you think they will attack when they feel disrespected and dismissed?

I didn't "criticize" people for what they posted - I posted an alternate POV. Which you mocked, acting like my more concerned pov was equivalent to a panicked child running around aimlessly. Hardly.

And yes - I criticized you for posting a mocking post. Obviously - you have nothing of substance to add. Seemingly so thin-skinned you interpret a different POV as criticism (I didn't quote you, I did not reference you in one bit). I was merely agreeing with latebloomer and disagreeing with the generalized sentiment that this was not going to be an huge issue. 

You then tried to on me to find a solution. To offer "intelligent solutions". Why? YOU don't even think there's going to an issue! Why would I offer you solutions to something you are clearly stating isn't a problem?

But suddenly now it is a problem, which my blue enmeshment is not likely to withstand. So now we have gone from it being a complete non-issue, to violence within the cidetal of blueness.

So which is it? Why are you jockeying around from one extreme to another? This smacks to me of not debating the issue in good faith at all. Which I have very little interest or patience in engaging with. I'm in the middle of cooking a fantastic, so-blue-it-hurts luncheon, so I can't be bothered overmuch.


For those interested, it is my acclaimed tofu kung pao - completely vegan, gluten free, mostly certified organic or grown in the garden ingredients, and of course stemming from immigrants bringing their cuisines with them to the US.....

Here is actually what i have posted:

Sept 8, 2023 14:16:20 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Thomas Jefferson:

... And what country can preserve it’s liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms. The remedy is to set them right as to facts, pardon and pacify them. What signify a few lives lost in a century or two? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is it’s natural manure. ... link

I do believe there will be more bloodshed. I don't think it is avoidable while maintaining our liberties.

Sept 9, 2023 10:04:20 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

... And on the first half of your post: Totally agree that it would be guerrilla style warfare resistance to government authority. One thing I have seen is what I perceive as an understanding of the need for a very measured response. I look at the reaction to the Occupation of the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge. It would have been easy to go in with overwhelming force. But the way it was handled give no opportunity for a negative reaction. If government forces don't overreact, right wing extremist acts will not generate support.

I indicate there will be inevitable bloodshed. I indicate there will be guerrilla style resistance and acts. So, "problems". My substantive solution is don't overreact.

[Rukh O'Rorke]

Sept 9, 2023 15:05:57 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Sept 9, 2023 14:40:10 GMT -5 Rukh O'Rorke said:

I didn't "criticize" people for what they posted - I posted an alternate POV. Which you mocked, acting like my more concerned pov was equivalent to a panicked child running around aimlessly. Hardly.

And yes - I criticized you for posting a mocking post. Obviously - you have nothing of substance to add. Seemingly so thin-skinned you interpret a different POV as criticism (I didn't quote you, I did not reference you in one bit). I was merely agreeing with latebloomer and disagreeing with the generalized sentiment that this was not going to be an huge issue. 

You then tried to on me to find a solution. To offer "intelligent solutions". Why? YOU don't even think there's going to an issue! Why would I offer you solutions to something you are clearly stating isn't a problem?

But suddenly now it is a problem, which my blue enmeshment is not likely to withstand. So now we have gone from it being a complete non-issue, to violence within the cidetal of blueness.

So which is it? Why are you jockeying around from one extreme to another? This smacks to me of not debating the issue in good faith at all. Which I have very little interest or patience in engaging with. I'm in the middle of cooking a fantastic, so-blue-it-hurts luncheon, so I can't be bothered overmuch.


For those interested, it is my acclaimed tofu kung pao - completely vegan, gluten free, mostly certified organic or grown in the garden ingredients, and of course stemming from immigrants bringing their cuisines with them to the US.....

Here is actually what i have posted:

Sept 8, 2023 14:16:20 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Thomas Jefferson:

... And what country can preserve it’s liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms. The remedy is to set them right as to facts, pardon and pacify them. What signify a few lives lost in a century or two? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is it’s natural manure. ... link

I do believe there will be more bloodshed. I don't think it is avoidable while maintaining our liberties.

Sept 9, 2023 10:04:20 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

... And on the first half of your post: Totally agree that it would be guerrilla style warfare resistance to government authority. One thing I have seen is what I perceive as an understanding of the need for a very measured response. I look at the reaction to the Occupation of the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge. It would have been easy to go in with overwhelming force. But the way it was handled give no opportunity for a negative reaction. If government forces don't overreact, right wing extremist acts will not generate support.

I indicate there will be inevitable bloodshed. I indicate there will be guerrilla style resistance and acts. So, "problems". My substantive solution is don't overreact.

So it's unavoidable. Part of the process..... so.....?

[Rukh O'Rorke]

Sept 9, 2023 14:48:47 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Sept 9, 2023 14:40:10 GMT -5 Rukh O'Rorke said:

I didn't "criticize" people for what they posted - I posted an alternate POV. Which you mocked, acting like my more concerned pov was equivalent to a panicked child running around aimlessly. Hardly.

And yes - I criticized you for posting a mocking post. Obviously - you have nothing of substance to add. Seemingly so thin-skinned you interpret a different POV as criticism (I didn't quote you, I did not reference you in one bit). I was merely agreeing with latebloomer and disagreeing with the generalized sentiment that this was not going to be an huge issue. 

You then tried to on me to find a solution. To offer "intelligent solutions". Why? YOU don't even think there's going to an issue! Why would I offer you solutions to something you are clearly stating isn't a problem?

But suddenly now it is a problem, which my blue enmeshment is not likely to withstand. So now we have gone from it being a complete non-issue, to violence within the cidetal of blueness.

So which is it? Why are you jockeying around from one extreme to another? This smacks to me of not debating the issue in good faith at all. Which I have very little interest or patience in engaging with. I'm in the middle of cooking a fantastic, so-blue-it-hurts luncheon, so I can't be bothered overmuch.


For those interested, it is my acclaimed tofu kung pao - completely vegan, gluten free, mostly certified organic or grown in the garden ingredients, and of course stemming from immigrants bringing their cuisines with them to the US.....

i was a bit surprised by your post, Rukh.  i have come to kind of appreciate Biden.  i think his political skills and instincts are good, and he gets things done.  he has respect for the office, and cares about the image of the US, and it's place in the world.  that is about as much as i can expect from any president, ime.  

having said that, i didn't vote for Biden, and won't vote for him this time.  that is because my vote doesn't matter much in a deep blue state.  i have the freedom to choose who i want.  and i want an anti-interventionist president.  neither mainstream candidate will be that in the next election, ergo.....

all a president has to do to win my vote is say they will cut defense spending 40%, and invest it in US infrastructure.  that's it.  nothing more or less.

think this was in response to my post on a different thread?

But - I'm just not a fan. He's stuck in 1959 in some ways. See his recent concessions to big oil for an example. He isn't taking the global leadership role in environmental and climate issue that the world needs for the US president. 

[billisonboard]

Sept 9, 2023 15:22:12 GMT -5 Rukh O'Rorke said:

Sept 9, 2023 15:05:57 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Here is actually what i have posted:I indicate there will be inevitable bloodshed. I indicate there will be guerrilla style resistance and acts. So, "problems". My substantive solution is don't overreact.

So it's unavoidable. Part of the process..... so.....?

No clue. You don't agree with what was being said so I was looking for a why.

[laterbloomer]

Sept 9, 2023 11:46:59 GMT -5 Rukh O'Rorke said:

I think a lot of you are being far too placid. I would think likewise if Jan 6th hadn't happened.


Remember - it wasn't just the mob, there was support and collusion from some members of congress. There were current and ex military and law enforcement in the mob. They have all been seething on this for 4 years. 

The road ahead is bumpy. Possibly bloody. Which, ok, maybe that is the cost of democracy. Is there any chance they could pull it off? Or actually fracture the US, even temporarily?

I don't know, I sure hope Jan 6th was the bursting of the bubble rather than the canary in the coal mine. But these people are stupid, they will believe anything! Many are trained from birth to blindly follow, they are whipped into a passion easily. They never met a fact they could not ignore, twist, or whatabout into their own narrative. Many already will say they would rather align with russians then democrats.

Stupid, passionate, angry, bored, and stockpiling for armageddon for decades. And they honestly believe that democrats won't fight back if push comes to shove because "gun control".


Really - what could go wrone? 

What worries me is the assumption that the military and police are on our side. I've seen a lot of studies talking about how many military and police are right wing. And there are enough of them in Congress to make a claim to "democratically elected". It's hard to come up with a solution when people don't acknowledge a problem.

[billisonboard]

Sept 9, 2023 16:54:01 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

Sept 9, 2023 11:46:59 GMT -5 Rukh O'Rorke said:

I think a lot of you are being far too placid. I would think likewise if Jan 6th hadn't happened.


Remember - it wasn't just the mob, there was support and collusion from some members of congress. There were current and ex military and law enforcement in the mob. They have all been seething on this for 4 years. 

The road ahead is bumpy. Possibly bloody. Which, ok, maybe that is the cost of democracy. Is there any chance they could pull it off? Or actually fracture the US, even temporarily?

I don't know, I sure hope Jan 6th was the bursting of the bubble rather than the canary in the coal mine. But these people are stupid, they will believe anything! Many are trained from birth to blindly follow, they are whipped into a passion easily. They never met a fact they could not ignore, twist, or whatabout into their own narrative. Many already will say they would rather align with russians then democrats.

Stupid, passionate, angry, bored, and stockpiling for armageddon for decades. And they honestly believe that democrats won't fight back if push comes to shove because "gun control".


Really - what could go wrone? 

What worries me is the assumption that the military and police are on our side. I've seen a lot of studies talking about how many military and police are right wing. And there are enough of them in Congress to make a claim to "democratically elected". It's hard to come up with a solution when people don't acknowledge a problem.

It is hard, if not impossible, to activate a solution to a problem if you need the assistance from people who won't acknowledge the problem. However most solutions are actually developed by smaller groups of people with a particular view of the situation and then they "sell" their plan to others who didn't see the problem initially.

As far as police and military being on "our side", how would we determine and deal with it if they aren't? Should we do a test and purge?

[Opti]

Sept 9, 2023 15:29:47 GMT -5 Rukh O'Rorke said:

Sept 9, 2023 14:48:47 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

i was a bit surprised by your post, Rukh.  i have come to kind of appreciate Biden.  i think his political skills and instincts are good, and he gets things done.  he has respect for the office, and cares about the image of the US, and it's place in the world.  that is about as much as i can expect from any president, ime.  

having said that, i didn't vote for Biden, and won't vote for him this time.  that is because my vote doesn't matter much in a deep blue state.  i have the freedom to choose who i want.  and i want an anti-interventionist president.  neither mainstream candidate will be that in the next election, ergo.....

all a president has to do to win my vote is say they will cut defense spending 40%, and invest it in US infrastructure.  that's it.  nothing more or less.

think this was in response to my post on a different thread?

But - I'm just not a fan. He's stuck in 1959 in some ways. See his recent concessions to big oil for an example. He isn't taking the global leadership role in environmental and climate issue that the world needs for the US president. 

I have no idea what politics were like with big oil in 1959 as I wasn't alive then. According to his birthdate Biden would be 17 or 18 then, so seems to me he wouldn't know enough then either to be stuck in whatever 1959 big oil mores were.

Politics is complicated and often slow. When you move too fast, there is backlash, like when Obama and Eric Holder tried to move things forward too quickly IMO for trans and other rights. Now I feel we may have rubber banded back to worse overall than when they started. 

I have not been following closely what has happened, but I personally do not need the US President to be "the leader" in all of this. There are other countries that have gravitas as well, we just need to not be behind and preferably in the lead with others.

I will have to do more research, but I found this article -


www.factandmyth.com/joe-biden/oil-drilling-has-increased-under-joe-biden

Having issues cutting and pasting, but apparently Trump shortened the time to review drilling applications and things were in the pipeline. (Not sure why trying to copy things is getting me the automatic reading of text.  Argh!) 

[pulmonarymd]

If the military stays out of it, or worse, side with the insurgents, we are doomed. Not sure what we can as n do about it. Whichever side they support wins.

[billisonboard]

Sept 9, 2023 21:09:06 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

If the military stays out of it, or worse, side with the insurgents, we are doomed. Not sure what we can as n do about it. Whichever side they support wins.

We can continue to honor them and voice our faith that they will honor their oath: to "... support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that (they) will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; ...". We shouldn't work to create doubt.

[Rukh O'Rorke]

Sept 9, 2023 16:54:01 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

Sept 9, 2023 11:46:59 GMT -5 Rukh O'Rorke said:

I think a lot of you are being far too placid. I would think likewise if Jan 6th hadn't happened.


Remember - it wasn't just the mob, there was support and collusion from some members of congress. There were current and ex military and law enforcement in the mob. They have all been seething on this for 4 years. 

The road ahead is bumpy. Possibly bloody. Which, ok, maybe that is the cost of democracy. Is there any chance they could pull it off? Or actually fracture the US, even temporarily?

I don't know, I sure hope Jan 6th was the bursting of the bubble rather than the canary in the coal mine. But these people are stupid, they will believe anything! Many are trained from birth to blindly follow, they are whipped into a passion easily. They never met a fact they could not ignore, twist, or whatabout into their own narrative. Many already will say they would rather align with russians then democrats.

Stupid, passionate, angry, bored, and stockpiling for armageddon for decades. And they honestly believe that democrats won't fight back if push comes to shove because "gun control".


Really - what could go wrone? 

What worries me is the assumption that the military and police are on our side. I've seen a lot of studies talking about how many military and police are right wing. And there are enough of them in Congress to make a claim to "democratically elected". It's hard to come up with a solution when people don't acknowledge a problem.

yeah - it could end up a shit show. 

I don't think it's likely to be a huge shit show though.....maybe just some skid marks here and there...but the potential exists and I won't be surprised by anything - well most things anyway!

I'm encouraged by the ongoing prosecutions for jan 6, hope there will be more and more significant people too. And maybe that will be a deterent to some....and maybe a lot of the most active ones will be out of the fray due to....being incarcerated....

[djAdvocate]

Sept 9, 2023 15:29:47 GMT -5 Rukh O'Rorke said:

Sept 9, 2023 14:48:47 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

i was a bit surprised by your post, Rukh.  i have come to kind of appreciate Biden.  i think his political skills and instincts are good, and he gets things done.  he has respect for the office, and cares about the image of the US, and it's place in the world.  that is about as much as i can expect from any president, ime.  

having said that, i didn't vote for Biden, and won't vote for him this time.  that is because my vote doesn't matter much in a deep blue state.  i have the freedom to choose who i want.  and i want an anti-interventionist president.  neither mainstream candidate will be that in the next election, ergo.....

all a president has to do to win my vote is say they will cut defense spending 40%, and invest it in US infrastructure.  that's it.  nothing more or less.

think this was in response to my post on a different thread?

But - I'm just not a fan. He's stuck in 1959 in some ways. See his recent concessions to big oil for an example. He isn't taking the global leadership role in environmental and climate issue that the world needs for the US president. 

i think he is a typical moderate.  i didn't have ANY expectations of him, other than NORMAL.

i am happy with normal.  

but i am glad that someone is still as idealistic as i once was.  that is hopeful.

[djAdvocate]

Sept 9, 2023 21:09:06 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

If the military stays out of it, or worse, side with the insurgents, we are doomed. Not sure what we can as n do about it. Whichever side they support wins.

i am not that worried about this, now.  i was certainly worried on J6, and i was worried when i was much younger.  but the military, when it comes down to it, seems more obligated to the constitution and the rule of law than to Trump.  my opinion, of course.

of course, if Trump wins, all bets are off.  that is probably the near term end for democracy, here.

[happyhoix]

Sept 10, 2023 4:11:39 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Sept 9, 2023 21:09:06 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

If the military stays out of it, or worse, side with the insurgents, we are doomed. Not sure what we can as n do about it. Whichever side they support wins.

i am not that worried about this, now.  i was certainly worried on J6, and i was worried when i was much younger.  but the military, when it comes down to it, seems more obligated to the constitution and the rule of law than to Trump.  my opinion, of course.

of course, if Trump wins, all bets are off.  that is probably the near term end for democracy, here.

I also think most of the military will stick with their oath to uphold the constitution. The military hammers that pretty solidly into people’s heads. Not that some of the military wouldn’t go AWOL and join with the insurrectionists - they will. 

I think the police in red rural areas may declare for Trump, but not in the suburban/urban areas. 

The main problem for the insurrectionists would be who would lead them. There will be hundreds of wanna be warlords trying to be in charge. They won’t unite under a single pro trump flag, they will be some that are wanting to establish a far right Christian theocracy, and some that are simply anti-government anarchists. They’d end up fighting themselves as much as they would against the government troops. 

[laterbloomer]

Sept 10, 2023 10:40:20 GMT -5 happyhoix said:

Sept 10, 2023 4:11:39 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

i am not that worried about this, now.  i was certainly worried on J6, and i was worried when i was much younger.  but the military, when it comes down to it, seems more obligated to the constitution and the rule of law than to Trump.  my opinion, of course.

of course, if Trump wins, all bets are off.  that is probably the near term end for democracy, here.

I also think most of the military will stick with their oath to uphold the constitution. The military hammers that pretty solidly into people’s heads. Not that some of the military wouldn’t go AWOL and join with the insurrectionists - they will. 

I think the police in red rural areas may declare for Trump, but not in the suburban/urban areas. 

The main problem for the insurrectionists would be who would lead them. There will be hundreds of wanna be warlords trying to be in charge. They won’t unite under a single pro trump flag, they will be some that are wanting to establish a far right Christian theocracy, and some that are simply anti-government anarchists. They’d end up fighting themselves as much as they would against the government troops. 

So what's happening with that Senator that won't approve the military promotions? How many unfilled positions are there?
And I think you have done a great job of explaining the threat of Trump. For some reason all those different groups can agree on him.
I want to be wrong about this. But history has shown that coups happen. I wish I could be as confident as some here that it can't happen there.

[billisonboard]

Sept 10, 2023 10:40:20 GMT -5 happyhoix said:

Sept 10, 2023 4:11:39 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

i am not that worried about this, now.  i was certainly worried on J6, and i was worried when i was much younger.  but the military, when it comes down to it, seems more obligated to the constitution and the rule of law than to Trump.  my opinion, of course.

of course, if Trump wins, all bets are off.  that is probably the near term end for democracy, here.

I also think most of the military will stick with their oath to uphold the constitution. The military hammers that pretty solidly into people’s heads. Not that some of the military wouldn’t go AWOL and join with the insurrectionists - they will. 

I think the police in red rural areas may declare for Trump, but not in the suburban/urban areas. 

The main problem for the insurrectionists would be who would lead them. There will be hundreds of wanna be warlords trying to be in charge. They won’t unite under a single pro trump flag, they will be some that are wanting to establish a far right Christian theocracy, and some that are simply anti-government anarchists. They’d end up fighting themselves as much as they would against the government troops. 

I think it is important to look at the details of "the military" in terms of risk to democracy.

Personnel: there is an important difference between commissioned officers and enlisted. It is the officers who are the greater threat. Enlisted could peel off individually but more senior officers could commit organized groups one way or the other. Another Personnel question is training and specialization. There is a limited percentage of the military who would be of real value in the type of warfare we would be seeing. Location and transportation would be a factor also. We have large numbers of troops overseas and spread throughout the country. How many would be able to be effectively utilized end how quickly is an open question which leads to

Euipment: A soldier going AWOL is one thing, taking a tank with them is something totally different. The US Army has about 5500 tanks. They reasonably don't publish details on exwctly where those tanks are sitting but you know a good number of them are overseas. How many could insurrectionists get their hands on and move into a meaningful location is hard to say. There is also the interplay with equipment and personnel. Enlisted could drive a tank miles. Officers could get them shipped across the country more easily. Air power is a whole other issue. Also with equipment comes repair skills and parts availability.

A lot of details are involved with what "the military" might do.

[pulmonarymd]

Tuberville is an idiot. A former football coach. I he is burning a lot of bridges with this stunt. 58% of Alabamans think it is time to give this up.

I think there is a risk of violence. I do not believe an organized plot or action sufficient enough to bring the government down will happen. I think(and hope) our military will follow our elected leaders, but who knows.

I still don’t under what you think we should do. We are proceeding with attempting to hold Trump accountable according to our laws. Should we upend our constitution and institutions pre-emptively because of these fears. If you fears come to fruition, the world will have to get used to a Chinese run century. Empires rise and fall. At some point we may be one of those. Not sure how we prevent it.

[billisonboard]

Sept 10, 2023 12:07:01 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

Tuberville is an idiot. A former football coach. I he is burning a lot of bridges with this stunt. 58% of Alabamans think it is time to give this up.

I think there is a risk of violence. I do not believe an organized plot or action sufficient enough to bring the government down will happen. I think(and hope) our military will follow our elected leaders, but who knows.

I still don’t under what you think we should do. We are proceeding with attempting to hold Trump accountable according to our laws. Should we upend our constitution and institutions pre-emptively because of these fears. If you fears come to fruition, the world will have to get used to a Chinese run century. Empires rise and fall. At some point we may be one of those. Not sure how we prevent it.

A question I have is, "What, if any, significant impact would result from a coup at the federal level on life as we know it?" If Trump is elected or installed by coup would it really make a difference?

[billisonboard]

Sept 10, 2023 12:07:01 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

Tuberville is an idiot. A former football coach. I he is burning a lot of bridges with this stunt. 58% of Alabamans think it is time to give this up.

I think there is a risk of violence. I do not believe an organized plot or action sufficient enough to bring the government down will happen. I think(and hope) our military will follow our elected leaders, but who knows.

I still don’t under what you think we should do. We are proceeding with attempting to hold Trump accountable according to our laws. Should we upend our constitution and institutions pre-emptively because of these fears. If you fears come to fruition, the world will have to get used to a Chinese run century. Empires rise and fall. At some point we may be one of those. Not sure how we prevent it.

The bolded reminds me of "The operation was a success but the patient died".

[djAdvocate]

Sept 10, 2023 12:07:01 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

Tuberville is an idiot. A former football coach. I he is burning a lot of bridges with this stunt. 58% of Alabamans think it is time to give this up.

I think there is a risk of violence. I do not believe an organized plot or action sufficient enough to bring the government down will happen. I think(and hope) our military will follow our elected leaders, but who knows.

I still don’t under what you think we should do. We are proceeding with attempting to hold Trump accountable according to our laws. Should we upend our constitution and institutions pre-emptively because of these fears. If you fears come to fruition, the world will have to get used to a Chinese run century. Empires rise and fall. At some point we may be one of those. Not sure how we prevent it.

i think we are doing exactly the right thing.  typically, rogue leaders are brought to yoke by the judiciary or by a popular uprising.  i don't like the latter course of action, because the number of civilian casualties is far higher than the legal way.  but the legal path, in MANY cases (Israel is the latest example of this) is subverted, rendering it impotent.  so far, our judiciary has stood up to Trump.  i am not exaggerating one bit.  he is something like 1:62 now in cases in the last four years.  he pretty much loses every time.  and that is EVEN with judges he has appointed.

[laterbloomer]

Sept 10, 2023 12:48:52 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Sept 10, 2023 12:07:01 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

Tuberville is an idiot. A former football coach. I he is burning a lot of bridges with this stunt. 58% of Alabamans think it is time to give this up.

I think there is a risk of violence. I do not believe an organized plot or action sufficient enough to bring the government down will happen. I think(and hope) our military will follow our elected leaders, but who knows.

I still don’t under what you think we should do. We are proceeding with attempting to hold Trump accountable according to our laws. Should we upend our constitution and institutions pre-emptively because of these fears. If you fears come to fruition, the world will have to get used to a Chinese run century. Empires rise and fall. At some point we may be one of those. Not sure how we prevent it.

i think we are doing exactly the right thing.  typically, rogue leaders are brought to yoke by the judiciary or by a popular uprising.  i don't like the latter course of action, because the number of civilian casualties is far higher than the legal way.  but the legal path, in MANY cases (Israel is the latest example of this) is subverted, rendering it impotent.  so far, our judiciary has stood up to Trump.  i am not exaggerating one bit.  he is something like 1:62 now in cases in the last four years.  he pretty much loses every time.  and that is EVEN with judges he has appointed.

That is the most reassuring thing I've read. How many of those have been criminal cases?

[billisonboard]

I think it is important to note that the courts are upholding the actions of election officials who are upholding the actions of voters. That speaks well to the strength of our system. 

[resolution]

MTG is now pushing for secession as well.

[happyhoix]

Sept 10, 2023 11:28:41 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

Sept 10, 2023 10:40:20 GMT -5 happyhoix said:

I also think most of the military will stick with their oath to uphold the constitution. The military hammers that pretty solidly into people’s heads. Not that some of the military wouldn’t go AWOL and join with the insurrectionists - they will. 

I think the police in red rural areas may declare for Trump, but not in the suburban/urban areas. 

The main problem for the insurrectionists would be who would lead them. There will be hundreds of wanna be warlords trying to be in charge. They won’t unite under a single pro trump flag, they will be some that are wanting to establish a far right Christian theocracy, and some that are simply anti-government anarchists. They’d end up fighting themselves as much as they would against the government troops. 

So what's happening with that Senator that won't approve the military promotions? How many unfilled positions are there?
And I think you have done a great job of explaining the threat of Trump. For some reason all those different groups can agree on him.
I want to be wrong about this. But history has shown that coups happen. I wish I could be as confident as some here that it can't happen there.

That senator is a GOP senator from Alabama who used to be a football coach, and the southern states are nuts about college football. If Ugga ran for office, he would probably win. (UGA mascot, an ugly bulldog). The senator wants to ban the military from providing money to female members who want to travel for health care (abortions) or any other pro-abortion activities. He’s willing to let our armed forces become dangerously weak in order to try to push his pro-life point. 

Everyone hates him, including a lot of his constituents. 

I think a coup could happen. I just don’t think it will be successful. It reminds me of John WIlkes Booth, a southern sympathizer who assassinated  President Lincoln at the end of the Civil War - he was absolutely convinced he would become the hero of the nation, celebrated in the streets. I think the current batch of insurrectionist similarly think the country would welcome their coup. We wouldn’t. It won’t end well. 

[seriousthistime]

What is disturbing to me is that a number of European countries have also taken a hard shift to the right over the past 20 years.  I would like to think our reputation of rugged individualism is at play here, but seeing that shift in other countries makes me realize the sentiment is more widespread. Right-wing extremism is growing in Canada too.  It''s not just here.  

I find it interesting that Trump is worried about Judge Chutkan's bias against him.  If she has to recuse herself, Thomas should similarly recuse himself (he should do it anyway) but that's not likely to happen.  Anyway, having worked for a number of years in the federal courts, I am impressed that most judges can set their biases aside and give the defendants a fair trial.  Remember, Judge Chutkan is a former defense attorney.  I'm sure that defendants' rights are top of mind. 

[thyme4change]

Sept 11, 2023 18:12:27 GMT -5 resolution said:

MTG is now pushing for secession as well.

Am I the only one who feels like we should let them?

The more amicable the national divorce, the easier it will be to set up mutually beneficial trade agreements. Granted, the cities will be a mess as educated talent would move to different states depending on their politics. And companies with a national workforce would have a lot of work to get things all kosher - but maybe we just let the most conservative states try and set up their own country and leave the rest of the states alone.

[billisonboard]

Sept 12, 2023 14:33:18 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

Sept 11, 2023 18:12:27 GMT -5 resolution said:

MTG is now pushing for secession as well.

Am I the only one who feels like we should let them?

The more amicable the national divorce, the easier it will be to set up mutually beneficial trade agreements. Granted, the cities will be a mess as educated talent would move to different states depending on their politics. And companies with a national workforce would have a lot of work to get things all kosher - but maybe we just let the most conservative states try and set up their own country and leave the rest of the states alone.

If only it could be cleanly done. The cities are obviously one problem but there are a lot of others. One is that some states have different regions. That issue was looked at earlier in this thread as it pertains to my little part of the country. Then we have asset and liability division. I don't see amicable as a real possibility.

[mollyc]

It would take a long time to negotiate, I would think. Among the things that came up before both Quebec separation votes and during discussions with Albertans are:

- Are reserves going to be able to stay under Fedral jurisdiction? They may not always like how they are acted on but generally the treaties are with the Federal government not the provincial. This assumes that Reserves in the US are also under Federal jurisdiction

- Are Federal lands (like Jasper and Banff National Parks) going to be part of the negotiations or are they going to stay Federal property?

- To Bills previous point, can individual areas choose to stay with the Status quo or can neighbouring areas declare themselves to have seceded to the new territory?

- Is there going to continue to be a joint currency ongoing or is there going to be a set time when the new country must have its own currency? How is it determined who gets to claim the current currency? That’s rather easy if only one area is leaving but harder if a bunch of places are slicing off together

- Are trade partners going to honour current agreements with the new country or will it need to create all new agreements like Britain after Brexit

It’s nice to think that “fuck you, we’re gone” is all it takes but life is way more complicated then that