And Here Goes Affirmative Action

[scgal]

Jul 3, 2023 10:35:46 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

Jul 3, 2023 10:21:38 GMT -5 scgal said:

I am probably going to get blasted again but I have to ask. 

What is wrong with considering potential students by their grades and not skin color. Is it not racist to give preferential treatment based on skin color? 

Anything wrong with having an all male class? An all Asian class? An all white class? DO any of those strike you as wrong?

 What are you trying to say. 

[scgal]

Jul 3, 2023 10:30:23 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Jul 3, 2023 10:21:38 GMT -5 scgal said:

I am probably going to get blasted again but I have to ask. 

What is wrong with considering potential students by their grades and not skin color. Is it not racist to give preferential treatment based on skin color? 

Grades are one dimension that might make an individual a quality college student but far from the most ideal.

Agreed, but skin color shouldn't be one of those dimensions

[pulmonarymd]

Jul 3, 2023 10:37:25 GMT -5 scgal said:

Jul 3, 2023 10:35:46 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

Anything wrong with having an all male class? An all Asian class? An all white class? DO any of those strike you as wrong?

 What are you trying to say. 

Are you ok if the results of the admission decisions results in the above. Do you think that legacy admissions are OK

[scgal]

Jul 3, 2023 10:40:40 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

Jul 3, 2023 10:37:25 GMT -5 scgal said:

 What are you trying to say. 

Are you ok if the results of the admission decisions results in the above. Do you think that legacy admissions are OK

Well I would have to ask the question why the results came out that way because I would think it would be impossible to have it ALL of one and none of the others, but to add in skin color it already become discrimination. 

[billisonboard]

Jul 3, 2023 10:38:36 GMT -5 scgal said:

Jul 3, 2023 10:30:23 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Grades are one dimension that might make an individual a quality college student but far from the most ideal.

Agreed, but skin color shouldn't be one of those dimensions

Studies have shown that race is a factor in many of the items used to select candidates. Why shouldn't it be a factor in the process that looks at those items.

[scgal]

Jul 3, 2023 10:58:16 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Jul 3, 2023 10:38:36 GMT -5 scgal said:

Agreed, but skin color shouldn't be one of those dimensions

Studies have shown that race is a factor in many of the items used to select candidates. Why shouldn't it be a factor in the process that looks at those items.

Ok then the question that needs to be studied would be WHY is race a factor? It shouldn't just be factored into the process causing a unbalance of qualified candidates. 

[pulmonarymd]

Jul 3, 2023 11:01:45 GMT -5 scgal said:

Jul 3, 2023 10:58:16 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Studies have shown that race is a factor in many of the items used to select candidates. Why shouldn't it be a factor in the process that looks at those items.

Ok then the question that needs to be studied would be WHY is race a factor? It shouldn't just be factored into the process causing a unbalance of qualified candidates. 

African Americans have better health outcomes when they are cared for by African AMerican physicians. Is that an important enough reason to consider the racial makeup of a medical school class

60 years ago there were few women physicians. They then started to consider sex in admission decisions. Did you have a problem with that?

[billisonboard]

Jul 3, 2023 11:01:45 GMT -5 scgal said:

Jul 3, 2023 10:58:16 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Studies have shown that race is a factor in many of the items used to select candidates. Why shouldn't it be a factor in the process that looks at those items.

Ok then the question that needs to be studied would be WHY is race a factor? It shouldn't just be factored into the process causing a unbalance of qualified candidates. 

It has been studied. For example: Black families are over represented in lower socio-economic levels. Students in lower levels frequently have family responsibilities making it impossible to participate in extracurricular activities. They are more likely to experience economic barriers to participation. They are more likely to attend schools with less such activities.

[daisylu]

Jul 3, 2023 10:49:39 GMT -5 scgal said:

Jul 3, 2023 10:40:40 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

Are you ok if the results of the admission decisions results in the above. Do you think that legacy admissions are OK

Well I would have to ask the question why the results came out that way because I would think it would be impossible to have it ALL of one and none of the others, but to add in skin color it already become discrimination. 

There are way more types of discrimination other than skin color. Your posting style shows that you have never felt discriminated against. Good for you. 

I prefer diversity in everything. It helps people grow. Not you, obviously.

[billisonboard]

SAT test scores have also been studied. Again black families are over represented in lower socio-economic levels. Students in lower levels frequently have family responsibilities making it more difficult to dedicate adequate time for study.  They are more likely to experience economic barriers to participation in testing taking preparation classes. They are more likely to attend schools/ live in areas with less access to such classes. 

[laterbloomer]

Jul 3, 2023 10:21:38 GMT -5 scgal said:

I am probably going to get blasted again but I have to ask. 

What is wrong with considering potential students by their grades and not skin color. Is it not racist to give preferential treatment based on skin color? 

It's funny they went after AA but not legacy enrollments or the kids that get admitted because their family donated a library.

[scgal]

Jul 3, 2023 11:12:32 GMT -5 daisylu said:

Jul 3, 2023 10:49:39 GMT -5 scgal said:

Well I would have to ask the question why the results came out that way because I would think it would be impossible to have it ALL of one and none of the others, but to add in skin color it already become discrimination. 

There are way more types of discrimination other than skin color. Your posting style shows that you have never felt discriminated against. Good for you. 

I prefer diversity in everything. It helps people grow. Not you, obviously.

Of course I have.
I also prefer diversity but it shouldn't be forced to get there.

[scgal]

Jul 3, 2023 11:18:29 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

SAT test scores have also been studied. Again black families are over represented in lower socio-economic levels. Students in lower levels frequently have family responsibilities making it more difficult to dedicate adequate time for study.  They are more likely to experience economic barriers to participation in testing taking preparation classes. They are more likely to attend schools/ live in areas with less access to such classes. 

I get it these are personal and some societal issues. But why should a female or male (I don't care which) candidate African American whose grades are 15% (figurative number it could be 1%) lower than a while candidate (male or female) get the admission first the white student proved themself also that would be discrimination.

[daisylu]

Jul 3, 2023 11:30:26 GMT -5 scgal said:

Jul 3, 2023 11:12:32 GMT -5 daisylu said:

There are way more types of discrimination other than skin color. Your posting style shows that you have never felt discriminated against. Good for you. 

I prefer diversity in everything. It helps people grow. Not you, obviously.

Of course I have.
I also prefer diversity but it shouldn't be forced to get there.

Sometimes it needs to be forced or it WILL NOT HAPPEN. There is no level playing field.

[pulmonarymd]

Jul 3, 2023 11:30:26 GMT -5 scgal said:

Jul 3, 2023 11:12:32 GMT -5 daisylu said:

There are way more types of discrimination other than skin color. Your posting style shows that you have never felt discriminated against. Good for you. 

I prefer diversity in everything. It helps people grow. Not you, obviously.

Of course I have.
I also prefer diversity but it shouldn't be forced to get there.

People never give up advantages voluntarily. Depending on the generosity of others is a losing proposition, especially when people feel they have a stake in the outcome

[laterbloomer]

Jul 3, 2023 10:21:38 GMT -5 scgal said:

I am probably going to get blasted again but I have to ask. 

What is wrong with considering potential students by their grades and not skin color. Is it not racist to give preferential treatment based on skin color? 

Studies have shown that the typical admissions criteria favors people that have had the life experiences and resources of white upper class people. To make it truly fair we'd make sure all students had access to the same quality primary and secondary education and count babysitting siblings and after-school jobs equal to all other extra curricula activities. AA is cheaper.

[scgal]

Jul 3, 2023 11:06:20 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

Jul 3, 2023 11:01:45 GMT -5 scgal said:

Ok then the question that needs to be studied would be WHY is race a factor? It shouldn't just be factored into the process causing a unbalance of qualified candidates. 

African Americans have better health outcomes when they are cared for by African AMerican physicians. Is that an important enough reason to consider the racial makeup of a medical school class

60 years ago there were few women physicians. They then started to consider sex in admission decisions. Did you have a problem with that?

Why? That would be the question to answer. On that note only men should be male dr and female only female dr. 

[pulmonarymd]

Jul 3, 2023 11:34:04 GMT -5 scgal said:

Jul 3, 2023 11:18:29 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

SAT test scores have also been studied. Again black families are over represented in lower socio-economic levels. Students in lower levels frequently have family responsibilities making it more difficult to dedicate adequate time for study.  They are more likely to experience economic barriers to participation in testing taking preparation classes. They are more likely to attend schools/ live in areas with less access to such classes. 

I get it these are personal and some societal issues. But why should a female or male (I don't care which) candidate African American whose grades are 15% (figurative number it could be 1%) lower than a while candidate (male or female) get the admission first the white student proved themself also that would be discrimination.

Because things aren't equal. The student who needs to work or watch their younger siblings so their parents can work(since we can't give people adequate childcare) doesn't get to do all the extra enrichment programs. Nor can their families afford the tutor for the SATs or for the class they are struggling with, or stay after school to get the extra help they need to understand a problem. They do not get to go on expensive vacations and all the enrichment programs.

You will respond with life is not fair. It isn't, but we can recognize it and try to make adjustments when possible. It has been shown that the educational level of the parents is a large determinant of a child's accomplishment. Not doing anything to factor that into the process just perpetuates inequality. You really thing it is a level playing field when you discount all of that? 

[billisonboard]

Jul 3, 2023 11:34:04 GMT -5 scgal said:

Jul 3, 2023 11:18:29 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

SAT test scores have also been studied. Again black families are over represented in lower socio-economic levels. Students in lower levels frequently have family responsibilities making it more difficult to dedicate adequate time for study.  They are more likely to experience economic barriers to participation in testing taking preparation classes. They are more likely to attend schools/ live in areas with less access to such classes. 

I get it these are personal and some societal issues. But why should a female or male (I don't care which) candidate African American whose grades are 15% (figurative number it could be 1%) lower than a while candidate (male or female) get the admission first the white student proved themself also that would be discrimination.

Because an admissions board determined, based on all the factors they considered, that the African-American student would be a better addition to their student body than the other student.

[Knee Deep in Water Chloe]

Jul 3, 2023 11:30:26 GMT -5 scgal said:

Jul 3, 2023 11:12:32 GMT -5 daisylu said:

There are way more types of discrimination other than skin color. Your posting style shows that you have never felt discriminated against. Good for you. 

I prefer diversity in everything. It helps people grow. Not you, obviously.

Of course I have.
I also prefer diversity but it shouldn't be forced to get there.

It shouldn't have to be, but it does. Otherwise there would literally still be slavery in the southern United States. 

Jul 3, 2023 11:34:04 GMT -5 scgal said:

Jul 3, 2023 11:18:29 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

SAT test scores have also been studied. Again black families are over represented in lower socio-economic levels. Students in lower levels frequently have family responsibilities making it more difficult to dedicate adequate time for study.  They are more likely to experience economic barriers to participation in testing taking preparation classes. They are more likely to attend schools/ live in areas with less access to such classes. 

I get it these are personal and some societal issues. But why should a female or male (I don't care which) candidate African American whose grades are 15% (figurative number it could be 1%) lower than a while candidate (male or female) get the admission first the white student proved themself also that would be discrimination.

Because the white kid's parents had the opportunity to go be accepted to college and thus make more money. Because they make more money, they can afford a nicer place to live with less stress. The black kid's parents did not have a realistic opportunity to go to college or trade school. The black kid lives in a noisy apartment complex and has little way to do or supervision to do additional academics at home. 

[daisylu]

Jul 3, 2023 11:36:07 GMT -5 scgal said:

Jul 3, 2023 11:06:20 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

African Americans have better health outcomes when they are cared for by African AMerican physicians. Is that an important enough reason to consider the racial makeup of a medical school class

60 years ago there were few women physicians. They then started to consider sex in admission decisions. Did you have a problem with that?

Why? That would be the question to answer. On that note only men should be male dr and female only female dr. 

First off, huh? Because that post makes no sense. Second, after decades of being blown off by male doctors who do not how a female body works and like to blame everything on "hormones", I will only see a female now.

[pulmonarymd]

Jul 3, 2023 11:36:07 GMT -5 scgal said:

Jul 3, 2023 11:06:20 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

African Americans have better health outcomes when they are cared for by African AMerican physicians. Is that an important enough reason to consider the racial makeup of a medical school class

60 years ago there were few women physicians. They then started to consider sex in admission decisions. Did you have a problem with that?

Why? That would be the question to answer. On that note only men should be male dr and female only female dr. 

Again, you don't care about fixing the problem. There is racism in our society, medicine is included. It has been studied. It involves both patient and doctor factors. It is not easy to fix. Taking it into account helps with inequality. People tend to set up practices in locations where they care for people like themselves. How many white physicians go to underserved communities? How many urban/suburban residents go to rural areas?

There should be a large diversity of physicians that patients can choose from. That solves your sex problem. Or we could have kept women down so their grades and board scores are not competitive, and kept on admitting only white males to medical school. Then we wouldn't have to worry about any of this, and we could have kept things the way they were meant to be.

[daisylu]

I   Knee Deep in Water Chloe 

[Knee Deep in Water Chloe]

I actually am okay with not having race or ethnicity "quotas" to meet for admissions to post-secondary institutions. However, GPA is a damned annoying thing and SAT & ACT scores are even worse. And don't get me started on parents paying to have their child's admission essays written for them. I say this as a parent and as a public school educator. There need to be many other data points--quantitative and qualitative--for admissions to post-secondary institutions. 

[scgal]

Jul 3, 2023 11:41:14 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

Jul 3, 2023 11:34:04 GMT -5 scgal said:

I get it these are personal and some societal issues. But why should a female or male (I don't care which) candidate African American whose grades are 15% (figurative number it could be 1%) lower than a while candidate (male or female) get the admission first the white student proved themself also that would be discrimination.

Because things aren't equal. The student who needs to work or watch their younger siblings so their parents can work(since we can't give people adequate childcare) doesn't get to do all the extra enrichment programs. Nor can their families afford the tutor for the SATs or for the class they are struggling with, or stay after school to get the extra help they need to understand a problem. They do not get to go on expensive vacations and all the enrichment programs.

You will respond with life is not fair. It isn't, but we can recognize it and try to make adjustments when possible. It has been shown that the educational level of the parents is a large determinant of a child's accomplishment. Not doing anything to factor that into the process just perpetuates inequality. You really thing it is a level playing field when you discount all of that? 

No I don't think I would respond that way. How about reconizing those issues and not discriminating against the ones that don't have those issues. The way it is now we are discriminating against one group because of social economic issue from another. 

let alone not factor in not all white people have it so great and not all african american have it so bad. What happens to the white kid who has all the difficulties that you described in the first paragraph and still has to battle affirmative action. Is your answer life's not fair?

[scgal]

Jul 3, 2023 11:45:05 GMT -5 daisylu said:

Jul 3, 2023 11:36:07 GMT -5 scgal said:

Why? That would be the question to answer. On that note only men should be male dr and female only female dr. 

First off, huh? Because that post makes no sense. Second, after decades of being blown off by male doctors who do not how a female body works and like to blame everything on "hormones", I will only see a female now.

I didn't write that well I. Thought faster than I typed. I prefer a female gyno as far as a gp I don't care. On a medical knowledge standpoint I'm not going to argue that a woman knows more about women just because she is a woman. 

[jerseygirl]

Jul 3, 2023 11:44:38 GMT -5 Knee Deep in Water Chloe said:

Jul 3, 2023 11:30:26 GMT -5 scgal said:

Of course I have.
I also prefer diversity but it shouldn't be forced to get there.

It shouldn't have to be, but it does. Otherwise there would literally still be slavery in the southern United States. 

Jul 3, 2023 11:34:04 GMT -5 scgal said:

I get it these are personal and some societal issues. But why should a female or male (I don't care which) candidate African American whose grades are 15% (figurative number it could be 1%) lower than a while candidate (male or female) get the admission first the white student proved themself also that would be discrimination.

Because the white kid's parents had the opportunity to go be accepted to college and thus make more money. Because they make more money, they can afford a nicer place to live with less stress. The black kid's parents did not have a realistic opportunity to go to college or trade school. The black kid lives in a noisy apartment complex and has little way to do or supervision to do additional academics at home. 

Except there are more poor whites than Blacks simply based on more whites in present US population
Colleges and universities aren’t taking in mostly inner city poor kids . They’re kids of more prosperous families
And too many Black kids in the inner cities are trapped in failing schools.
Yet poor non English speaking immigrant Chinese somehow get their kids to be outstanding students even when they’re in the inner city schools.
These kids had a good reason to object to AA as done by Harvard and NC . Yes they’ll get into other good schools but at a big cost to knowing they’re being discriminated against.

See below from an Asian author. Hope it’s not pay walled!

www.quora.com/Affirmative-action-was-overturned-for-college-admissions-today-Why-would-people-be-upset-that-we-are-judging-people-on-the-merits-of-their-ability-rather-than-their-skin-color-or-background/answer/Amy-Chai-3?ch=17&oid=1477743677449286&share=e3ac9f8e&srid=aPxo&target_type=answer

[laterbloomer]

Jul 3, 2023 12:00:30 GMT -5 scgal said:

Jul 3, 2023 11:45:05 GMT -5 daisylu said:

First off, huh? Because that post makes no sense. Second, after decades of being blown off by male doctors who do not how a female body works and like to blame everything on "hormones", I will only see a female now.

I didn't write that well I. Thought faster than I typed. I prefer a female gyno as far as a gp I don't care. On a medical knowledge standpoint I'm not going to argue that a woman knows more about women just because she is a woman. 

Actually the thing is female doctors take women's complaints more seriously.

[Knee Deep in Water Chloe]

Jul 3, 2023 11:52:38 GMT -5 scgal said:

Jul 3, 2023 11:41:14 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

Because things aren't equal. The student who needs to work or watch their younger siblings so their parents can work(since we can't give people adequate childcare) doesn't get to do all the extra enrichment programs. Nor can their families afford the tutor for the SATs or for the class they are struggling with, or stay after school to get the extra help they need to understand a problem. They do not get to go on expensive vacations and all the enrichment programs.

You will respond with life is not fair. It isn't, but we can recognize it and try to make adjustments when possible. It has been shown that the educational level of the parents is a large determinant of a child's accomplishment. Not doing anything to factor that into the process just perpetuates inequality. You really thing it is a level playing field when you discount all of that? 

No I don't think I would respond that way. How about reconizing those issues and not discriminating against the ones that don't have those issues. The way it is now we are discriminating against one group because of social economic issue from another. 

let alone not factor in not all white people have it so great and not all african american have it so bad. What happens to the white kid who has all the difficulties that you described in the first paragraph and still has to battle affirmative action. Is your answer life's not fair?

This rationale perpetuates generational poverty for all races and ethnicities. 

[scgal]

Jul 3, 2023 11:44:38 GMT -5 Knee Deep in Water Chloe said:

Jul 3, 2023 11:30:26 GMT -5 scgal said:

Of course I have.
I also prefer diversity but it shouldn't be forced to get there.

It shouldn't have to be, but it does. Otherwise there would literally still be slavery in the southern United States. 

Jul 3, 2023 11:34:04 GMT -5 scgal said:

I get it these are personal and some societal issues. But why should a female or male (I don't care which) candidate African American whose grades are 15% (figurative number it could be 1%) lower than a while candidate (male or female) get the admission first the white student proved themself also that would be discrimination.

Because the white kid's parents had the opportunity to go be accepted to college and thus make more money. Because they make more money, they can afford a nicer place to live with less stress. The black kid's parents did not have a realistic opportunity to go to college or trade school. The black kid lives in a noisy apartment complex and has little way to do or supervision to do additional academics at home. 

I would argue your first reply they are 2 different things. 

The second reply what about the white kid's parents who didn't get to go to college and have the same issues the black kid did? As an educator are you ok with 2 kids applying to the same college one white one black having the same home life white child grades are higher the black child get the admission the white child doesn't?