And Here Goes Affirmative Action

[daisylu]

God forbid white people might feel discriminated against. 

June 29 (Reuters) - The U.S. Supreme Court on Thursday struck down race-conscious student admissions programs currently used at Harvard University and the University of North Carolina in a sharp setback to affirmative action policies often used increase the number of Black, Hispanic and other underrepresented minority groups on campuses.



The justices ruled in favor of a group called Students for Fair Admissions, founded by anti-affirmative action activist Edward Blum, in its appeal of lower court rulings upholding programs used at the two prestigious schools to foster a diverse student population.

Many institutions of higher education, corporations and military leaders have long backed affirmative action on campuses not simply to remedy racial inequity and exclusion in American life but to ensure a talent pool that can bring a range of perspectives to the workplace and U.S. armed forces ranks.



According to Harvard, around 40% of U.S. colleges and universities consider race in some fashion.



Harvard and UNC have said they use race as only one factor in a host of individualized evaluations for admission without quotas - permissible under previous Supreme Court precedents - and that curbing its consideration would cause a significant drop in enrollment of students from under-represented groups.



Critics, who have tried to topple these policies for decades, argue these policies are themselves discriminatory.









link

[haapai]

It's a sad day.  The decision is 229 pages long.  I have no idea what it means, much less what will change. 

On the other hand, I have absolutely no doubt that Harvard was blatantly discriminating against Asian-American students. 

[Tennesseer]

It's a shame SCOTUS didn't address legacy admissions. Legacy admissions are often not the brightest students.

[jerseygirl]

California already does this

[haapai]

Jun 29, 2023 11:55:39 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

It's a shame SCOTUS didn't address legacy admissions. Legacy admissions are often not the brightest students.

I agree.  They are not always the brightest but they are useful.  They tend to pay full fare or full fare plus donations.  Their dullness might actually be a virtue because it disguises (fuzzes-up) the cut-off. 

I'm very cynical today. 

[pulmonarymd]

California's banning of AA has had significant negative consequences.

Legacy admissions need to be abolished. 
Preferences for athletes needs to be abolished. They should have to meet the same standards as other students. If UNC's basketball team sucks, oh well, a sacrifice for the greater good
No preference for band or other extracurricular activities

We can admit based on test scores only. Lets make all campuses homogeneous. College should be work, can't have fun. No room for growth by meeting people different than yourself. Let's ban scholarships, if you cannot afford to pay full price, you do not belong there. All kinds of things can be done to make it safe for rich white men.

Now, we may have a problem with our economy and attracting the best and the brightest to the US, but that is just the price of freedom.

The crazy thing is that there are about 100-150 colleges and universities that reject less than 50% of their applicants. AA preferences only will really apply to them. But we have to throw the whole system into chaos. The admission process will become more opaque than it already is.

[daisylu]

At least Kentaji Brown Jackson is not biting her tongue.


On Thursday, the Supreme Court voted 6-3 to gut affirmative action programs at universities. The disgraceful majority opinion, authored by Chief Justice John Roberts, said higher education can no longer use race as an explicit factor when admitting students, as it may “involve racial stereotyping.”



Ultraconservative Justice Clarence Thomas used his concurring opinion to lament that affirmative action encourages “permanent victimhood” and claimed that Justice Kentaji Brown Jackson had argued that the legacy of slavery “locks blacks into a seemingly perpetual inferior caste.” (Yes he really said “blacks,” not “Black people.”) Jackson responded in a footnote: “[Thomas] does not dispute any historical or present fact about the origins and continued existence of race-based disparity (nor could he), yet is somehow persuaded that these realities have no bearing on a fair assessment of ‘individual achievement.’” Jackson also wrote that Thomas “ignites too many more straw men to list, or fully extinguish, here.”



Weirdly, some of the arguments for race-conscious admissions penetrated Roberts’ little brain. He specifically exempts military academies and their “potentially distinct interests” from the ban that he’s unilaterally applying to the rest of America. “The United States as amicus curiae contends that race-based admissions programs further compelling interests at our Nation’s military academies. No military academy is a party to these cases, however, and none of the courts below addressed the propriety of race-based admissions systems in that context,” Roberts wrote. “This opinion also does not address the issue, in light of the potentially distinct interests that military academies may present.”



Justice Jackson saw right through Roberts’ carveout. “The court has come to rest on the bottom-line conclusion that racial diversity in higher education is only worth potentially preserving insofar as it might be needed to prepare Black Americans and other underrepresented minorities for success in the bunker, not the boardroom (a particularly awkward place to land, in light of the history the majority opts to ignore),” she wrote in her dissent against the UNC case. (She recused herself from the Harvard case because of her connection to the school.)


link

[haapai]

Jun 29, 2023 12:12:54 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

California's banning of AA has had significant negative consequences.

Legacy admissions need to be abolished. 
Preferences for athletes needs to be abolished. They should have to meet the same standards as other students. If UNC's basketball team sucks, oh well, a sacrifice for the greater good
No preference for band or other extracurricular activities

We can admit based on test scores only. Lets make all campuses homogeneous. College should be work, can't have fun. No room for growth by meeting people different than yourself. Let's ban scholarships, if you cannot afford to pay full price, you do not belong there. All kinds of things can be done to make it safe for rich white men.

Now, we may have a problem with our economy and attracting the best and the brightest to the US, but that is just the price of freedom.

The crazy thing is that there are about 100-150 colleges and universities that reject less than 50% of their applicants. AA preferences only will really apply to them. But we have to throw the whole system into chaos. The admission process will become more opaque than it already is.

I think that you meant to type accept instead of reject.  Also, I think there might be more, possibly 200.  On the other hand, you are on the right track when you try to say that these schools educate a very small percentage of US undergraduates, something like 2%. 

And yes, Harvard screwed up badly and the rest of us seem to be paying. 

[daisylu]

Thomas is a tool. Does he not realize that slavery existed before AND after the the Constitution was written?


Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas noted that he knows about the obstacles Black people in the US have faced as he ruled affirmative action should still be outlawed.



"While I am painfully aware of the social and economic ravages which have befallen my race and all who suffer discrimination, I hold out enduring hope that this country will live up to its principles so clearly enunciated in the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution of the United States: that all men are created equal, are equal citizens, and must be treated equally before the law," Thomas wrote.



Thomas declared "the Constitution prevails" in his opinion as the Supreme Court effectively outlawed affirmative action at US colleges and universities. In a 6-3 decision, the high court ruled that policies at Harvard University and the University of North Carolina were unconstitutional.


link

[pulmonarymd]

Jun 29, 2023 12:28:00 GMT -5 haapai said:

Jun 29, 2023 12:12:54 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

California's banning of AA has had significant negative consequences.

Legacy admissions need to be abolished. 
Preferences for athletes needs to be abolished. They should have to meet the same standards as other students. If UNC's basketball team sucks, oh well, a sacrifice for the greater good
No preference for band or other extracurricular activities

We can admit based on test scores only. Lets make all campuses homogeneous. College should be work, can't have fun. No room for growth by meeting people different than yourself. Let's ban scholarships, if you cannot afford to pay full price, you do not belong there. All kinds of things can be done to make it safe for rich white men.

Now, we may have a problem with our economy and attracting the best and the brightest to the US, but that is just the price of freedom.

The crazy thing is that there are about 100-150 colleges and universities that reject less than 50% of their applicants. AA preferences only will really apply to them. But we have to throw the whole system into chaos. The admission process will become more opaque than it already is.

I think that you meant to type accept instead of reject.  Also, I think there might be more, possibly 200.  On the other hand, you are on the right track when you try to say that these schools educate a very small percentage of US undergraduates, something like 2%. 

And yes, Harvard screwed up badly and the rest of us seem to be paying. 

Yes, you are right about what i meant to say.


Here is a citation, my number is a bit low it would appear

www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2019/04/09/a-majority-of-u-s-colleges-admit-most-students-who-apply/

Looks to be less than 20% of schools. They only looked at 1300. There are over 4000 4 year universities in the US. Admission rates have gone down, at least in part due to the # schools/applicant has increased drastically, due to the ease of applying by the common application

[haapai]

This NYT piece by Adam Liptak is one of the best early summaries of the 229 page decision that I have encountered yet.  I'm linking to something that is probably pay-walled because it might be reprinted elsewhere and it's worth reading. 

Lordy! even this guy found himself talking about the barbs that the Justices directed at each other instead of the text.  Parts of the text were also pretty amazing.  Here's an example from the article. 

Chief Justice Roberts wrote on Thursday that “there is no reason to believe that respondents will — even acting in good faith — comply with the equal protection clause any time soon.”

Justices of the Supreme Court don't usually say things like that in opinions.  My goodness, this is a scattered fractured mess of concurrences and bitterness.  I have no idea which bits will prevail. 

[haapai]

This NPR article is not pay-walled but is quite different.  It's not quite as focused on the law and the text of the decision but it provides some interesting background.  The cynic in me wonders what percentage of it was written before the decision. 

I'm bewildered by the ferocity of the attack on anything that yields diversity. 

[jerseygirl]

Jun 29, 2023 14:12:53 GMT -5 haapai said:

This NPR article is not pay-walled but is quite different.  It's not quite as focused on the law and the text of the decision but it provides some interesting background.  The cynic in me wonders what percentage of it was written before the decision. 

I'm bewildered by the ferocity of the attack on anything that yields diversity. 

Problem was the 2 universities DECREASED diversity by knowingly decreasing numbers of Asians

[haapai]

I'm not sure if UNC was accused of that or was found to have done that. 

Harvard did.  Oh Lordy, they did!  I don't know why they held Asian-American students to pretty much the same percentage of the admitted class as their percentage of the US college-bound population increased dramatically.  I don't know how they expected to get away with it. 

[pulmonarymd]

Jun 29, 2023 14:30:15 GMT -5 haapai said:

I'm not sure if UNC was accused of that or was found to have done that. 

Harvard did.  Oh Lordy, they did!  I don't know why they held Asian-American students to pretty much the same percentage of the admitted class as their percentage of the US college-bound population increased dramatically.  I don't know how they expected to get away with it. 

Need to admit the legacy students.

The suit was disingenuous. Conservative think tank guy got Asian Americans to sue Harvard to overturn AA. They want to reserve more spots for whites. If you admit by test scores only, you could have an entire admission class be Asians. That doesn't help diversity either, and I suspect the white Harvard alums would have a problem with that

[haapai]

Jun 29, 2023 14:30:15 GMT -5 haapai said:

I'm not sure if UNC was accused of that or was found to have done that. 

Harvard did.  Oh Lordy, they did!  I don't know why they held Asian-American students to pretty much the same percentage of the admitted class as their percentage of the US college-bound population increased dramatically.  I don't know how they expected to get away with it. 

I typed too fast.  UNC was also found to have held Asian-American students to a higher standard. 

I'm confused as to why they did this.  UNC has a mandate to serve in-state students.  Only 18% of their first-time students can be from out of state.  Does North Carolina have enough Asian-American students heading toward college that limiting their numbers would actually make much difference? 

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

Jun 29, 2023 15:10:31 GMT -5 haapai said:

Jun 29, 2023 14:30:15 GMT -5 haapai said:

I'm not sure if UNC was accused of that or was found to have done that. 

Harvard did.  Oh Lordy, they did!  I don't know why they held Asian-American students to pretty much the same percentage of the admitted class as their percentage of the US college-bound population increased dramatically.  I don't know how they expected to get away with it. 

I typed too fast.  UNC was also found to have held Asian-American students to a higher standard. 

I'm confused as to why they did this.  UNC has a mandate to serve in-state students.  Only 18% of their first-time students can be from out of state.  Does North Carolina have enough Asian-American students heading toward college that limiting their numbers would actually make much difference? 

It's an unconscious stereotype that hurts Asian Americans.   How many people have you heard say, and I've seen it on the boards too, that Asian Americans are better at math?  That Indians and Asian Americans are better test takers?

It's a widely held belief even if it is not true.  As such admissions people have come to expect Asian Americans to have outstanding test scores compared to white or other minority students.  If they have what is perceived to be an "average" score for an Asian American admissions will pass on the application.  Meanwhile that score is seen as excellent for a different minority student.

It's been pretty well studied.   Asian American students do have a valid complaint there.

But that has nothing to do with affirmative action itself.   That is a need for diversity training in admissions and perhaps blind applications where the applicants name is omitted so you can't see a name and assume nationality.  There have been several studies in that regard that show the playing field evens out tremendously when names/genders are not included on applications so a bias can't form before things even get underway.

[haapai]

Jun 29, 2023 14:34:51 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

Jun 29, 2023 14:30:15 GMT -5 haapai said:

I'm not sure if UNC was accused of that or was found to have done that. 

Harvard did.  Oh Lordy, they did!  I don't know why they held Asian-American students to pretty much the same percentage of the admitted class as their percentage of the US college-bound population increased dramatically.  I don't know how they expected to get away with it. 

Need to admit the legacy students.

The suit was disingenuous. Conservative think tank guy got Asian Americans to sue Harvard to overturn AA. They want to reserve more spots for whites. If you admit by test scores only, you could have an entire admission class be Asians. That doesn't help diversity either, and I suspect the white Harvard alums would have a problem with that

I haven't heard a peep regarding what kind of relief Asian American students are getting, especially at Harvard, where the main mechanism for keeping them out was personality assessment.  I don't think that the school has been told to cut that out. 

I remain unconvinced that they were being discriminated against nearly as much at UNC.  UNC pretty much has two separate admission pools - one for in-state students and one for everyone else.  If the everyone-else pool is both far more competitive and includes the majority of Asian and Asian-American applicants, how strong is the argument that they are facing a higher standard?

I think they got bupkis. 

[pulmonarymd]

Asian Americans have higher SAT score averages at Harvard, and higher GPAs. If they are required to go by scores only, Asian representation goes up, African American will go down, and whites may not change much. Not the sun that conservatives think it will be, unless they increase legacy admission. My suspicion is that Harvard will use family income as a substitute for race, which in all honesty is probably a better metric.

NC has a higher Asian population than you might think. My kids got into schools like Georgetown, Middlebury, Dartmouth, and UVa, but were rejected at UNC. For out of state applicants, it might be more difficult to get into than getting into Harvard.

I do interviews for Georgetown. This past year there were 25k applicants and 3600 are admitted. If you removed those admitted, go back into the applicant pool and admit another whole class, the average SAT score, GPA, and class rank does not change. The whole case is ridiculous. There are more qualified applicants than spots, and some criteria, sometimes arbitrary, needs to be applied. The small percent that benefit from AA is really a distraction

[Opti]

Jun 29, 2023 12:33:27 GMT -5 daisylu said:

Thomas is a tool. Does he not realize that slavery existed before AND after the the Constitution was written?


Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas noted that he knows about the obstacles Black people in the US have faced as he ruled affirmative action should still be outlawed.



"While I am painfully aware of the social and economic ravages which have befallen my race and all who suffer discrimination, I hold out enduring hope that this country will live up to its principles so clearly enunciated in the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution of the United States: that all men are created equal, are equal citizens, and must be treated equally before the law," Thomas wrote.



Thomas declared "the Constitution prevails" in his opinion as the Supreme Court effectively outlawed affirmative action at US colleges and universities. In a 6-3 decision, the high court ruled that policies at Harvard University and the University of North Carolina were unconstitutional.


link

He's a man who happens to be black. He does not acknowledge probably that he had any help getting to where he is today. He probably believes it is solely based on his magnificient merit therefore shouldn't others rise to emulate him?

Yeah, he's ignoring history, but he's ignored reality so much recently it does not seem surprising at all.

[busymom]

The Supreme Court is attempting to take us back to the "bad old days", where only rich white boys had the opportunity to go to college.  Sadly, I am concerned that now that non-white Americans have fewer opportunities to attend college, the next target will be women.  I don't know the numbers nationally, but my former college has more women than men currently enrolled.  

I'm just thinking out loud here, but does anyone here think that enrollment at, for example, colleges that enroll mostly African-Americans will see increases in number of students?  

[thyme4change]

Jun 29, 2023 19:10:56 GMT -5 haapai said:

Jun 29, 2023 14:34:51 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

Need to admit the legacy students.

The suit was disingenuous. Conservative think tank guy got Asian Americans to sue Harvard to overturn AA. They want to reserve more spots for whites. If you admit by test scores only, you could have an entire admission class be Asians. That doesn't help diversity either, and I suspect the white Harvard alums would have a problem with that

I haven't heard a peep regarding what kind of relief Asian American students are getting, especially at Harvard, where the main mechanism for keeping them out was personality assessment.  I don't think that the school has been told to cut that out. 

I will (again) promote the NYT podcast The Daily. Adam Liptak, who was mentioned earlier in writing a great summary of the decision, gives a summary of the summary. He is excellent and that podcast is excellent.

John Roberts said that colleges can’t find a legal way to do an illegal thing. So, using pictures or interviews to determine race and then using race as a deciding factor is still not constitutional. They can use personality and essays to find people with a diverse viewpoint, but if it gets to the point where it is obvious from the outside that they are using race or spoken inside the admissions department and leaked, colleges will still get caught and forced to stop.

Also - an interesting run down of the statistics on how many people are actually in favor of ending AA. More than I would expect.

[pulmonarymd]

Harvard has 1700 first year students s. Subtract athletes who are admitted from that number. Subtract legacy admissions. Subtract international students. Subtract band members who play with uncommon instruments. You will arrive at the number of “competitive” spots. How many of those spots are left? How many do we think went to unqualified applicants? The people who are against AA are unlikely to benefit from its end.

The funny thing is that the students affected are likely to end up at another top 100 college. They are going to be fine. It’s no like they end up at a community college

[minnesotapaintlady]

Jun 29, 2023 21:32:19 GMT -5 busymom said:

The Supreme Court is attempting to take us back to the "bad old days", where only rich white boys had the opportunity to go to college.  Sadly, I am concerned that now that non-white Americans have fewer opportunities to attend college, the next target will be women.  I don't know the numbers nationally, but my former college has more women than men currently enrolled.  

I'm just thinking out loud here, but does anyone here think that enrollment at, for example, colleges that enroll mostly African-Americans will see increases in number of students?  

Most colleges enroll practically everyone with no regards to race or gender.  None of the state schools in MN utilize race as a criterion in admissions.  A couple of the privates like Carleton and St. Olaf consider it in their holistic review. 

[Pink Cashmere]

Jun 29, 2023 20:24:23 GMT -5 Opti said:

Jun 29, 2023 12:33:27 GMT -5 daisylu said:

Thomas is a tool. Does he not realize that slavery existed before AND after the the Constitution was written?


Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas noted that he knows about the obstacles Black people in the US have faced as he ruled affirmative action should still be outlawed.



"While I am painfully aware of the social and economic ravages which have befallen my race and all who suffer discrimination, I hold out enduring hope that this country will live up to its principles so clearly enunciated in the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution of the United States: that all men are created equal, are equal citizens, and must be treated equally before the law," Thomas wrote.



Thomas declared "the Constitution prevails" in his opinion as the Supreme Court effectively outlawed affirmative action at US colleges and universities. In a 6-3 decision, the high court ruled that policies at Harvard University and the University of North Carolina were unconstitutional.


link

He's a man who happens to be black. He does not acknowledge probably that he had any help getting to where he is today. He probably believes it is solely based on his magnificient merit therefore shouldn't others rise to emulate him?

Yeah, he's ignoring history, but he's ignored reality so much recently it does not seem surprising at all.

I can’t share my thoughts about him without using a lot of cuss words!

[haapai]

"Bought" is not a cuss word.  Neither is "delusional".  But "tool" might might be in the grey area.  Curses on that second meaning!

[tallguy]

Jun 30, 2023 21:08:29 GMT -5 Pink Cashmere said:

Jun 29, 2023 20:24:23 GMT -5 Opti said:

He's a man who happens to be black. He does not acknowledge probably that he had any help getting to where he is today. He probably believes it is solely based on his magnificient merit therefore shouldn't others rise to emulate him?

Yeah, he's ignoring history, but he's ignored reality so much recently it does not seem surprising at all.

I can’t share my thoughts about him without using a lot of cuss words!

Oh, I can...for a while.  But those cuss words would certainly come soon enough!  

[scgal]

I am probably going to get blasted again but I have to ask. 

What is wrong with considering potential students by their grades and not skin color. Is it not racist to give preferential treatment based on skin color? 

[billisonboard]

Jul 3, 2023 10:21:38 GMT -5 scgal said:

I am probably going to get blasted again but I have to ask. 

What is wrong with considering potential students by their grades and not skin color. Is it not racist to give preferential treatment based on skin color? 

Grades are one dimension that might make an individual a quality college student but far from the most ideal.

[pulmonarymd]

Jul 3, 2023 10:21:38 GMT -5 scgal said:

I am probably going to get blasted again but I have to ask. 

What is wrong with considering potential students by their grades and not skin color. Is it not racist to give preferential treatment based on skin color? 

Anything wrong with having an all male class? An all Asian class? An all white class? DO any of those strike you as wrong?