Teen workers

[susana1954]

I got involved in a FB thread out of boredom.  A pet groomer is looking for teens, specifically 15-17, to help her on a per dog payment plan.  That is, they have to come, but if they aren't washing a dog, they don't get paid.  They are strictly paid per dog washed.  An adult mentioned she would be interested, but the original poster can't pay enough, she said, to hire adults right now even part-time.  She isn't interested in college students either . . . and this is a college town.

So I pointed out, with a link to a government website, that she has to pay minimum wage for the hours the kids are there.  Someone else pointed out that they would be independent contractors.  I don't think so according to IRS rules since she controls when they work, etc.  But if they are independent contractors and she gives them a 1099 at the end of the year, they have to pay both halves of the SS tax.

I left out my thoughts that she is paying them under the table.  Also, she probably isn't pulling work permits for the ones who need them.

She said that the per washed dog equals minimum wage in the end so I asked why she didn't just pay them minimum wage to begin with.

She told me to mind my own business. So I will since I really need to go back to packing. She did edit her post to remove the "per dog" payment plan.  I guess she will explain that aspect at orientation.

[teen persuasion]

And how much is minimum in your area?

It's $14.20 here, going to $15 at the end of the year. But most jobs start above minimum, even/especially fast food.

[giramomma]

I dunno.

I'm a little eh.

In a former life, I hired teen babysitters. We pay above minimum (minimum is 7.50 an hour in my state), but we are not paid enough to pay our sitters 15-20/hour, which is what is the typical salary now.

I paid cash. No work permits.

How much I paid also depended. One kid or two. Kids are awake or asleep? How many meals need to be cooked.

I work in a land where kids are hired to pick strawberries...if they hustle, the kids can make $10 an hour. Cash, no permits. Kids generally don't last beyond a day or two.

Corn detassling is another job. Not paid well. from what I hear, takes advantage of kid labor.

I also conditionally pay our neighbhor kid to mow our lawn. The conditions are 1) do I see him walking down the street with the mower 2) do I have $20 in my pocket, and 3) is he willing to it me in.

But, farm work has a different set of norms, sometimes, than businesses do. I think the culture can bleed over a little bit, though.

DD1 needs a job, beyond watching the missy for us. (I'm paying her $10 for doing above and beyond work). With her schedule, honestly, a job like that would be awesome. No up and up job is going to hire her to work every other week or every two weeks during the summer.

[susana1954]

Jun 16, 2023 14:33:28 GMT -5 giramomma said:

I dunno.

I'm a little eh.

In a former life, I hired teen babysitters. We pay above minimum (minimum is 7.50 an hour in my state), but we are not paid enough to pay our sitters 15-20/hour, which is what is the typical salary now.

I paid cash. No work permits.

How much I paid also depended. One kid or two. Kids are awake or asleep? How many meals need to be cooked.

I work in a land where kids are hired to pick strawberries...if they hustle, the kids can make $10 an hour. Cash, no permits. Kids generally don't last beyond a day or two.

Corn detassling is another job. Not paid well. from what I hear, takes advantage of kid labor.

I also conditionally pay our neighbhor kid to mow our lawn. The conditions are 1) do I see him walking down the street with the mower 2) do I have $20 in my pocket, and 3) is he willing to it me in.

But, farm work has a different set of norms, sometimes, than businesses do. I think the culture can bleed over a little bit, though.

DD1 needs a job, beyond watching the missy for us. (I'm paying her $10 for doing above and beyond work). With her schedule, honestly, a job like that would be awesome. No up and up job is going to hire her to work every other week or every two weeks during the summer.

Minimum wage here is $7.25 an hour.

It was the "you get paid per dog washed" part that bothered me.  She made it clear that you had to be there for X number of hours each day, but you only got paid per dog washed.  So a kid could sit there for 5 hours and make whatever she is paying to help wash 5 dogs.  A dog's bath is less than $20 here although maybe she is an expensive salon (in the middle of a college town in the middle of a rural area).  

I see it as taking advantage of the kids . . . sort of the way some employers take advantage of migrant workers.  And I didn't like that.

[swamp]

Jun 16, 2023 13:11:58 GMT -5 susana1954 said:

I got involved in a FB thread out of boredom.  A pet groomer is looking for teens, specifically 15-17, to help her on a per dog payment plan.  That is, they have to come, but if they aren't washing a dog, they don't get paid.  They are strictly paid per dog washed.  An adult mentioned she would be interested, but the original poster can't pay enough, she said, to hire adults right now even part-time.  She isn't interested in college students either . . . and this is a college town.

So I pointed out, with a link to a government website, that she has to pay minimum wage for the hours the kids are there.  Someone else pointed out that they would be independent contractors.  I don't think so according to IRS rules since she controls when they work, etc.  But if they are independent contractors and she gives them a 1099 at the end of the year, they have to pay both halves of the SS tax.

I left out my thoughts that she is paying them under the table.  Also, she probably isn't pulling work permits for the ones who need them.

She said that the per washed dog equals minimum wage in the end so I asked why she didn't just pay them minimum wage to begin with.

She told me to mind my own business. So I will since I really need to go back to packing. She did edit her post to remove the "per dog" payment plan.  I guess she will explain that aspect at orientation.

THey aren't contractors.  She requires them to be on site at a certain time, directs their work, and provides the equipment. 

And requiring them to be there but not pay them is pretty crappy.  

[TheOtherMe]

Jun 16, 2023 14:49:40 GMT -5 swamp said:

Jun 16, 2023 13:11:58 GMT -5 susana1954 said:

I got involved in a FB thread out of boredom.  A pet groomer is looking for teens, specifically 15-17, to help her on a per dog payment plan.  That is, they have to come, but if they aren't washing a dog, they don't get paid.  They are strictly paid per dog washed.  An adult mentioned she would be interested, but the original poster can't pay enough, she said, to hire adults right now even part-time.  She isn't interested in college students either . . . and this is a college town.

So I pointed out, with a link to a government website, that she has to pay minimum wage for the hours the kids are there.  Someone else pointed out that they would be independent contractors.  I don't think so according to IRS rules since she controls when they work, etc.  But if they are independent contractors and she gives them a 1099 at the end of the year, they have to pay both halves of the SS tax.

I left out my thoughts that she is paying them under the table.  Also, she probably isn't pulling work permits for the ones who need them.

She said that the per washed dog equals minimum wage in the end so I asked why she didn't just pay them minimum wage to begin with.

She told me to mind my own business. So I will since I really need to go back to packing. She did edit her post to remove the "per dog" payment plan.  I guess she will explain that aspect at orientation.

THey aren't contractors.  She requires them to be on site at a certain time, directs their work, and provides the equipment. 

And requiring them to be there but not pay them is pretty crappy.  

Just came here to say that.  They absolutely are not contract labor.

Iowa passed a law this legislative session allowing kids 14 and up to work in meat packing plants.  There is a shortage of workers which no one seems to correlate with people moving out of the state due to all of these crazy laws being passed and that is why the meat packing plants can't find people to work.

The kids will be used and abused just like the adults are.  During Covid, the county went in and set up a Covid testing site because people don't live in a bubble and there was a huge outbreak of Covid.  The workers lived in 3 generation homes so lots of death.  Turns out management was taking bets on how many would "drop" today. 


So now we are letting 14 year olds work in these conditions. 

[pulmonarymd]

Her plan is so wrong in so many ways. 

My sons worked as farmhands for many years as teenagers. The farm owner somehow found a way to pay them both minimum wage, so anyone who says farmers can't is wrong. 

If I am forced to be at work, I damn well ought to be paid. If I only have to be there when there is work, well, all me in and I will come if I am available. If I am "on call" you better be paying me for my availability. If your business cannot manage that, you need a new business plan

[Opti]

Jun 16, 2023 15:38:55 GMT -5 TheOtherMe said:

Jun 16, 2023 14:49:40 GMT -5 swamp said:

THey aren't contractors.  She requires them to be on site at a certain time, directs their work, and provides the equipment. 

And requiring them to be there but not pay them is pretty crappy.  

Just came here to say that.  They absolutely are not contract labor.

Iowa passed a law this legislative session allowing kids 14 and up to work in meat packing plants.  There is a shortage of workers which no one seems to correlate with people moving out of the state due to all of these crazy laws being passed and that is why the meat packing plants can't find people to work.

The kids will be used and abused just like the adults are.  During Covid, the county went in and set up a Covid testing site because people don't live in a bubble and there was a huge outbreak of Covid.  The workers lived in 3 generation homes so lots of death.  Turns out management was taking bets on how many would "drop" today. 


So now we are letting 14 year olds work in these conditions. 

I would think many people moved out of Iowa and away from meat-packing plants because they protected the health of their workers so very badly. Even many of the worst abusers in healthcare facilities did better. 

They need to be paid better, protected better health wise and management can cut their salaries and give something back to the workers. It shouldn't be thankless work and we should not have people dying of preventable causes in plants and factories in America. 

[giramomma]

They are trying to pass a law here that would allow kids 14 to serve alcohol in restaurants.

They have also voted to end using extra taxpayer money to help make child care more accessible for low income folks.

We've lost the undocumented immigrant labor pool.

Labor has to come from somewhere.

I'm not saying I'm agreeing with it. There's a critical mass of folks that do. Because they are voting in law makers to make these decisions. I don't have the energy to fight them. I'm too worn out for that.

Susanna didn't say PetSmart or Petco was advertising for help on facebook.

She said, groomer. I'm thinking small business, perhaps even one person.

Isn't the rhetoric that we've heard forever that you can treat small businesses the same as Petco and PetSmart? That small businesses can't afford to pay at the same rate as big companies? Offer the same benefits as big companies?

Maybe the person thought that kids 15-17 had the most flexible schedules and interest in doing an odd job.

Did the groomer insist that only options were staring at a wall or washing a dog? A  kid could do things like bring a computer and work on college essays offline while waiting for work. Or study for ACTs. Or study for their drivers license, pause to wash and dog and then continue on. Or they could do the Wordle or write thank you cards for gifts. Or if the kid is in summer school, they could do homework.....Or they could get some merit badge requirements done. Or even, read for pleasure.

Maybe there''s a kid out there that needs an excuse to get out from their parents thumb for the summer, and this "job" is a way to do it? And again, maybe they are smart enough to figure out productive ways to use down time....

All that said, I don't think the groomer is running their business wisely because why wouldn't you insist on appointments so you know when to have dog washers working for you. That would be the best way forward.

Or maybe the groomer is just getting started and needs to build up a clientele and doesn't feel they can turn work away or insist on routine scheduling.

[pulmonarymd]

So it is ok to take advantage of kids? Because that seems to be what you are alluding to. If there are no standards, it becomes a race to the bottom

[Pink Cashmere]

If I am at work because my employer has told me they expect me to be there, I expect to be paid for the time I’m there. If they don’t know how to run their business well enough to schedule me to come to work when there is work for me to do, that’s not my problem. Show me the money and pay me for my time.

Years ago, I kinda dated an attorney, and he would be on the phone chatting with me, when he had clients waiting to see him for their scheduled appointments. His attitude was that he was a professional, they could wait. That rubbed me the wrong way, and made me pay more attention to how some professionals, business owners and even random employees act as if my time is not valuable too. Just because they get paid big bucks to deal with me as a client, absolutely does not mean they get to treat me as if my time is not valuable, because it absolutely is. I could be doing something constructive, productive, or making money myself, while they are wasting my time.

Small business owners, I understand they might not be able to compete with larger businesses IRT employee pay, but that doesn’t mean they get to take advantage of people. If they can’t afford to hire help and pay them fairly, then don’t hire anyone until you can.

I absolutely would not agree with or participate in planting the seed in teenagers’ heads that their time is not valuable and they should cater to the whims of an employer that doesn’t want to pay them appropriately, because I would not want them to carry that kind of thinking into adulthood. That kind of thinking is why so many employers now think they can treat their employees any kind of way. 

So good for you susana1954 for speaking up, even if your reasons weren’t exactly the same as why I think it’s wrong.

[Tiny]

I got involved in a FB thread out of boredom. A pet groomer is looking for teens, specifically 15-17, to help her on a per dog payment plan. That is, they have to come, but if they aren't washing a dog, they don't get paid. They are strictly paid per dog washed. An adult mentioned she would be interested, but the original poster can't pay enough, she said, to hire adults right now even part-time. She isn't interested in college students either . . . and this is a college town.

So many questions: does the pet groomer not schedule appointments (so they know they will be doing X number of dogs)? Do they allow "walk ins"? Are the dogs that come in mostly short haired dogs that need little trimming? So having washed dogs queued up is good? What happens when the dog washer gets bit by a dog? Why would the pet groomer only have the teens do the dog washing? why not have them help with some of the other chores - like the clean up between dogs? or helping to keep an eye on a dog in a cage/dryer or the dogs that might be in kennels waiting for their owners to pick them up?

Odds are the pet groomer is spending 1.5 to 3 hours per dog. It might take 4 hours or more to take a pelt off a Doodle that hasn't been groomed in a very long time. (I have a relative that has an at home dog grooming business - but they also sometimes work at another groomers "shop"  Doodles are NOT their favorite dog because people forget they need to groomed regularly AND sometimes they are very large dogs.). I hear that sometimes a dog gets dropped off and not picked up for 6 or 7 hours... so some of the time is "pet sitting".

I would think the pet groomer would want the hired help to do more than just wash dogs. I would think there would be some other types of "busy work"/menial labor that (tending the towel washer and dryer, etc).

[dannylion]

If there are other jobs available for the hypothetical dog-washing teenager that pay better and pay for all hours present at the job site, the groomer may find it difficult to find a teenager willing to work on a per-dog-washed basis.  She will then need to decide whether she wants to whine about how teenagers don't want to work or restructure the job to include other duties that contribute to her bottom line and pay the hypothetical dog-washing teenager at a rate comparable to other available jobs for the hours the hypothetical teenager is present at the job site.  On the other hand, if there are few jobs available for teenagers, she might be able to find someone to wash her dogs, at least until they figure out how they are being exploited and quit.  Someone with no other opportunities to earn any money at all might be willing to take on the job, but wouldn't a dog grooming business be something more likely to be located in an area where people have disposable income, thus providing other businsses and opportunities for employment?  An area so economically depressed that this type of job might be acceptable would be unlikely to be a good location to start a dog-grooming business.  If the business owner feels the need to hire an employee but is unwilling or feels unable to pay the employee at a fair rate, that is not a business; it is a hobby.  

[TheOtherMe]

I don't know about other areas of the country, but here businesses can't find enough help to keep their businesses open as many hours as they would like to be open.

The legislature did pass a law about child care but the child care centers want kids their full time and the parents can't always work full time.  Also people are leaving Iowa, so that presents even more problems for employers and child care centers.

[susana1954]

Jun 17, 2023 9:32:18 GMT -5 dannylion said:

If there are other jobs available for the hypothetical dog-washing teenager that pay better and pay for all hours present at the job site, the groomer may find it difficult to find a teenager willing to work on a per-dog-washed basis.  She will then need to decide whether she wants to whine about how teenagers don't want to work or restructure the job to include other duties that contribute to her bottom line and pay the hypothetical dog-washing teenager at a rate comparable to other available jobs for the hours the hypothetical teenager is present at the job site.  On the other hand, if there are few jobs available for teenagers, she might be able to find someone to wash her dogs, at least until they figure out how they are being exploited and quit.  Someone with no other opportunities to earn any money at all might be willing to take on the job, but wouldn't a dog grooming business be something more likely to be located in an area where people have disposable income, thus providing other businsses and opportunities for employment?  An area so economically depressed that this type of job might be acceptable would be unlikely to be a good location to start a dog-grooming business.  If the business owner feels the need to hire an employee but is unwilling or feels unable to pay the employee at a fair rate, that is not a business; it is a hobby.  

There will always be people who are willing to work for less than minimum wage . . . way less.  They may be underage, lack documentation, etc.  In the case of the sweat shops in the last century, they were simply women and children, both groups which were valued less.  Way less as some paid for poor working conditions with their lives.  

But, hey, they or their families need to survive, right?  So if they are willing to work for peanuts, let them, right?  I had students whose employers didn't observe child labor laws, having the underage teens clock out at the appropriate time but continue working sometimes until midnight.  But, hey, they need a job, right?

Exploitation should never be condoned in the name of economics.  The descendants of slaves will tell you that.

[Pink Cashmere]

Jun 17, 2023 10:06:19 GMT -5 susana1954 said:

Jun 17, 2023 9:32:18 GMT -5 dannylion said:

If there are other jobs available for the hypothetical dog-washing teenager that pay better and pay for all hours present at the job site, the groomer may find it difficult to find a teenager willing to work on a per-dog-washed basis.  She will then need to decide whether she wants to whine about how teenagers don't want to work or restructure the job to include other duties that contribute to her bottom line and pay the hypothetical dog-washing teenager at a rate comparable to other available jobs for the hours the hypothetical teenager is present at the job site.  On the other hand, if there are few jobs available for teenagers, she might be able to find someone to wash her dogs, at least until they figure out how they are being exploited and quit.  Someone with no other opportunities to earn any money at all might be willing to take on the job, but wouldn't a dog grooming business be something more likely to be located in an area where people have disposable income, thus providing other businsses and opportunities for employment?  An area so economically depressed that this type of job might be acceptable would be unlikely to be a good location to start a dog-grooming business.  If the business owner feels the need to hire an employee but is unwilling or feels unable to pay the employee at a fair rate, that is not a business; it is a hobby.  

There will always be people who are willing to work for less than minimum wage . . . way less.  They may be underage, lack documentation, etc.  In the case of the sweat shops in the last century, they were simply women and children, both groups which were valued less.  Way less as some paid for poor working conditions with their lives.  

But, hey, they or their families need to survive, right?  So if they are willing to work for peanuts, let them, right?  I had students whose employers didn't observe child labor laws, having the underage teens clock out at the appropriate time but continue working sometimes until midnight.  But, hey, they need a job, right?

Exploitation should never be condoned in the name of economics.  The descendants of slaves will tell you that.

That is why people who aren’t in any of those dire circumstances need to stand up against exploitation of people who are.

[dannylion]

Jun 17, 2023 10:06:19 GMT -5 susana1954 said:

Jun 17, 2023 9:32:18 GMT -5 dannylion said:

If there are other jobs available for the hypothetical dog-washing teenager that pay better and pay for all hours present at the job site, the groomer may find it difficult to find a teenager willing to work on a per-dog-washed basis.  She will then need to decide whether she wants to whine about how teenagers don't want to work or restructure the job to include other duties that contribute to her bottom line and pay the hypothetical dog-washing teenager at a rate comparable to other available jobs for the hours the hypothetical teenager is present at the job site.  On the other hand, if there are few jobs available for teenagers, she might be able to find someone to wash her dogs, at least until they figure out how they are being exploited and quit.  Someone with no other opportunities to earn any money at all might be willing to take on the job, but wouldn't a dog grooming business be something more likely to be located in an area where people have disposable income, thus providing other businsses and opportunities for employment?  An area so economically depressed that this type of job might be acceptable would be unlikely to be a good location to start a dog-grooming business.  If the business owner feels the need to hire an employee but is unwilling or feels unable to pay the employee at a fair rate, that is not a business; it is a hobby.  

There will always be people who are willing to work for less than minimum wage . . . way less.  They may be underage, lack documentation, etc.  In the case of the sweat shops in the last century, they were simply women and children, both groups which were valued less.  Way less as some paid for poor working conditions with their lives.  

But, hey, they or their families need to survive, right?  So if they are willing to work for peanuts, let them, right?  I had students whose employers didn't observe child labor laws, having the underage teens clock out at the appropriate time but continue working sometimes until midnight.  But, hey, they need a job, right?

Exploitation should never be condoned in the name of economics.  The descendants of slaves will tell you that.

I was emphatically not defending the exploitation of people who have no other options.  I was simply pointing out that this particular business owner would likely find it difficult to find teenagers to exploit except in a location experiencing economic circumstances that would not be conducive to the type of business she is operating.  The exploitation of people, especially vulnerable people, is the reason there are labor laws, at least in areas of the country that still care about the exploitation of vulnerable people.  If the dog groomer is in one of those regions, she may find herself entangled in a legal problem of her own making.  If she lives in one of the states now gleefully rescinding labor laws designed to protect vulnerable workers, she might get away with it, at least for a while.