Bullying among middle schoolers

[Ryan]

My son is in 6th grade, very good kid, sweet, and funny.  He's had a couple friends since elementary school who always had some red flags, just things like excluding kids from a very early age.  Over the last year, every time he hangs out with them, it never seems to go well.  They give him ultimatums if he doesn't do certain thing and are just overall mean spirited.  After so many incidents that were pretty upsetting, we basically told him that he's not hanging out with them any longer.  He has another friend group that is SO NICE and he should invest time there.

The main problem is that by telling him to avoid these kids, he misses out on hanging with kids that are actually kinda nice.  My son doesn't have very similar interests to this larger group, they are into sports and making TikToks, he's into video games and other things.  Still, I feel kind of awful for making him miss out, but we've just been down this road too many times where, whenever the couple kids are there, it just ends horribly.  The good kids don't really stick up for him either.

Long-term, I know it's the right move for him but short term I feel guilty.  I'm 100% confident that if he invested his time with this other group of kids, he'd be happier in the long run.  I just question myself some times....

Have you ever had to deal with this situation?  Any advice?

[Pink Cashmere]

Bullying among children is something I always have something to say about, because my son was bullied so badly in middle school, that we ended up on a long and difficult road after one of his teachers found a note he’d written about wanting to commit suicide when he was 12yo. 

My son is alive and thriving, and will be 30yo this year, but bullying is still something I take very seriously and encourage parents to take seriously too. 

When DD was in 5th grade, there was a girl in her class that apparently many parents besides me, had told their children to avoid. Most of these children had gone to school together since kindergarten, so over the years, I was not the only parent that felt like this child had some issues, and advised my child to stay away from her.

So, one day I’m at the school waiting for my children to come to the car, and some little boy asked me if DD had told me what happened that day. I said no, what happened? And he told me. My children came to the car soon after that little boy told me what happened, and I asked DD what happened, and she told me the same thing the little boy had told me. So I gout out of my car and took my narrow ass inside the school because I needed answers.

When I got to DD’s classroom, there was a man already in there, talking to the teacher and he was very upset because his daughter had come to his car saying the same thing the little boy and my daughter said.

The girl who other parents had told their children to avoid, her Mom had come to the school that morning “to spend some time with her daughter and have lunch with her”. Well during lunch, she sat at the table with the children and demanded to know why the girls wouldn’t play with her daughter and told them she would “slap the shit out of them”. 

Ummmm, that behavior was probably why her daughter was the way she was. 

When I went in the school, the teacher didn’t want to deal with or discuss the issue with me or the man that was upset about what his daughter had told him.

So I went inside the school the next morning when I dropped my kids off, and asked to speak to the Principal. She didn’t really want to deal with it either. But somehow (I honestly don’t remember how), I’d learned that the woman that did that worked for the Board of Education. So I showed up at the Board of Education too, to tell them what she did while she should’ve been at work, and asked if this is the kind of shit my local taxes pay for, for employees of the school system to bully and threaten physical harm to young children while they are at school?

And just a few years later, all that stuff happened with my son being bullied at school and me having to try to get help for him and do what I could do to help him too. 3 of the boys that had been tormenting him, beat him up in the bathroom, kicking him after they’d already knocked him down. My son has never been one to cry, but when he finally got out of the bathroom and was in tears, his teacher just told him to go sit down. That memory makes me SO angry and hurts my heart so much at the same time, even after all these years. 

So while I was getting my son help so he would want to stay here with me, I was battling with his school and the Board of Education (again) at the same time, because school should’ve been a safe place for my son, and I was very clear that once I dropped him off at school in the morning, he was THEIR responsibility, and it was their fucking jobs to ensure he was safe from being bullied, and I expected them to do their damn jobs. While I was battling with them, one time I was at the school and one of my son’s teachers told me how those boys tormented my son all the time in her class, and I wanted to punch her in the throat, because why did you not do anything about it bitch? 

So, now that I’ve been through the woods and across the river, I encourage you to NOT feel bad about anything you do to try to protect your son from being bullied. You can help him pursue his interests in hopes of him making new friends that aren’t mean and he has something in common with. But whatever you do, do not feel bad for trying to protect him from bullies. A lot of children’s parents didn’t have the time that I was given to try to help my son, something I will always be grateful for. Some parents have lost their children to suicide because they were being bullied. 

I’m not saying it’s that bad for your son, I am just saying that our children don’t always have the tools to deal with bullying, by themselves, and I am encouraging you to talk to your son and let him know it’s okay for him to talk to you about whatever is going on in his life and how he feels about it. And again, I encourage you to not feel bad about trying to protect him from bullies. There are other children out there that would be glad to be your son’s friend. Figure out how to have him cross paths with those kind of children, if you can.

[Sharon]

Oh where to begin with middle school bullying.  DD went to private school for elementary school and that school also went through 6th grade so she started middle school as a 7th grader and only had two years of middle school but what a long two years.

We can start with her main tormentor S.  The girl who spit on her books, took her books and wouldn't give them back, shoved her in the hallway, would scribble all over her homework just as they were getting ready to turn it in, you get the picture.  She kept getting sat next to S by the teachers because they wanted DD to be a good influence on her.  I would have to call the school repeatedly to get them split up.  DD was facing some fines for lost school books and DD doesn't lose anything, organization should be her middle name.  The books eventually turned up in other classrooms where DD didn't even have class, oh but S did.

Then we also had A who would egg on other people to make fun of DD.  A actually outgrew some of that behavior and DD asked her in high school why she was so mean to her in middle school and she was honestly shocked that DD thought she was mean.  They talked about what happened and she saw why DD was upset and apologized.  It wasn't fun going through though when DD would come home crying.

We also had T who had PE with DD and decided for whatever reason to get very physical with DD.  Things like standing a couple feet in front of her and throwing a basketball as hard as she could into her face.  The PE teacher saw it and sent T to the office.  T then decided to start following DD home from school and threaten her.  When I talked with the PE teacher about that she told me to take those threats very seriously.  I arranged for the Aunt of a couple of her dance friends to pick DD up and take her to and from school for a few weeks until that calmed down.  We lived 3 blocks from school and DD walked.

Through it all I worked hard to keep the lines of communication open and what happened in school today, is everything okay, is there anything we need to talk about.  I also stressed how those kids would go no where in life and probably wouldn't even graduate from high school, which was the case for two of them.  DD was looking to get into honors track for high school.  A couple of the middle school teachers really encouraged her to go that route.  I don't know if the teachers helped to plant this idea or if DD figured it out herself but one day she told me if I do honors those kids won't be in my classes because they don't qualify.  I told her that's right.  S had a baby in 10th grade and dropped out.  I'm not sure if T dropped out in 10th grade or beginning of 11th grade.  DD continued with the honors track and ended up graduating high school with a year worth of college credits.

[busymom]

I would encourage you to follow your gut.  If you know these kids are no good, keep encouraging your own child to hang out with the nicer kids.  I hated the middle school years, as some of the kids are absolutely savage, and the teachers don't always do what needs to be done, or they misunderstand how seriously a child is being abused by other kids.  

[giramomma]

I think it's two fold; not only do you control who your kiddo no longer hangs out with, but also, you work extra hard to help your kid find their tribe.

My third kid marches to her own drum. Her march and drum are way off from everyone else's.

She also likes to hang out with boys, which now that she's finishing 5th grade, that's really not available to her as much as it used to be.

We have to be careful, because she can be a target for others in school.

She has friends outside of school. Honestly, I think she has more friends outside of school than in school.

She loves her video games,  martial arts and scouts bsa.

It's enough for her.

[Opti]

Mar 21, 2023 17:37:02 GMT -5 Ryan said:

My son is in 6th grade, very good kid, sweet, and funny.  He's had a couple friends since elementary school who always had some red flags, just things like excluding kids from a very early age.  Over the last year, every time he hangs out with them, it never seems to go well.  They give him ultimatums if he doesn't do certain thing and are just overall mean spirited.  After so many incidents that were pretty upsetting, we basically told him that he's not hanging out with them any longer.  He has another friend group that is SO NICE and he should invest time there.

The main problem is that by telling him to avoid these kids, he misses out on hanging with kids that are actually kinda nice.  My son doesn't have very similar interests to this larger group, they are into sports and making TikToks, he's into video games and other things.  Still, I feel kind of awful for making him miss out, but we've just been down this road too many times where, whenever the couple kids are there, it just ends horribly.  The good kids don't really stick up for him either.

Long-term, I know it's the right move for him but short term I feel guilty.  I'm 100% confident that if he invested his time with this other group of kids, he'd be happier in the long run.  I just question myself some times....

Have you ever had to deal with this situation?  Any advice?

As someone who was bullied by jealous people for a good portion of 1st grade to 9th grade, I'm going to vote with do remind him to stay away from the bad kids but try not to meddle much more than that. My initial bullies were kids my mom tried to recruit as friends when we were moving to another area in town, and she learned kids from these two families were moving there as well. What she succeeded in accomplishing was uniting them both against me and I got physically bullying from both in the future and even one of their brothers both at home, on the school bus and in school as well.

You aren't your son and are unlikely to be objective with how he really would feel hanging with kids whose interests really don't intersect his. It sucks to have 'friends' who like doing friendship tests but that can be valuable in teaching him things he doesn't want and perhaps finding the spine and strength to leave on his own.

Good kids often don't stick up for others because they become targets themselves. The child might be used to the verbally bullying, hitting, friendship tests, hair-pulling or whatever but the nice kids probably are not. One dose can make them into not supporters or at least kids that won't go into the line of fire again for your son. 

[minnesotapaintlady]

I totally control my kid's friend group and don't feel guilty about it at all.  One of the advantages of living out in the sticks is my kids are never able to just wander over to friend's houses on their own which makes it easier for me. 

[steph08]

Mar 22, 2023 9:03:41 GMT -5 minnesotapaintlady said:

I totally control my kid's friend group and don't feel guilty about it at all.  One of the advantages of living out in the sticks is my kids are never able to just wander over to friend's houses on their own which makes it easier for me. 

Raising my kids in the same area that I grew up in does have its perks - I went to school with many of the parents and definitely do steer my children in certain directions and away from others.

But my oldest (almost 9) seems to really understand the "fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me" aspect. She has one friend that wasn't always kind last year. She is friends with her still and hangs out with her in school, but she doesn't list her among her top friends (like if I ask her to narrow down to 5 kids for a birthday party, etc.). She keeps her at a distance.

Parenting is so hard. 

[azucena]

One thing that helped my older daughter was to talk about my own adult friend group. How certain friends were just so easy to be around and understood me. I could be myself among them. Perfect example is I could show up in a sweatshirt to go out to dinner with them.

Then I compared it to a different group of acquaintances. I didn't mind them but they ran in different circles - always dressed their best, big vacations, super nice cars. I told DD that I could work really hard to make myself fit in that group and likely even be mostly accepted but friendship is supposed to be mostly easy, not hard.

Seeing it amongst these groups of adults she knew well, helped her see it better in her peers.

[Tiny]

They give him ultimatums if he doesn't do certain thing and are just overall mean spirited. After so many incidents that were pretty upsetting, we basically told him that he's not hanging out with them any longer.

Be sure to talk to your son about why the mean spirited kids were not his "friends" - as in what does friendship involve. A friend doesn't need a loyalty oath or proof of loyalty to remain a friend for example.

Be sure to talk to your son about the way these kids made him feel. Do not invalidate his feelings.

I don't know how one navigates these kinds of bullies as a kid. I was told that I should try harder to get along with them.  And it just continued.  I just did my best to stay away from the bullies (which meant I stayed away from the social stuff at school and didn't hang with kids from school after school or over school breaks.)    I couldn't get away from them. it was a small grade school.   HS was a huge pool of kids - but I was socially unprepared for it.  

The type of bullying these 6th graders are doing - carries over into HS and College and their working days. They just get better at claiming "everyone was having fun! We didn't mean to be mean. The kid that got hurt WANTED to do it!" And the powers that be just go "oh, ok, it was just boys being boys (or you know how girls are), no hurt no foul. continue as you were. "

Maybe I'm too sensitive. I don't understand why being mean to a "friend" is a sign of "friendship" but apparently for many people it is.

[Tiny]

Good kids often don't stick up for others because they become targets themselves. The child might be used to the verbally bullying, hitting, friendship tests, hair-pulling or whatever but the nice kids probably are not. One dose can make them into not supporters or at least kids that won't go into the line of fire again for your son.

This is another thing to think about and/or talk to your son about.

As time goes on it's sometimes difficult for a bullied kid to "integrate" into a group of "good kids" because the good kids may also ostracize the bullied kid (in order to protect themselves from the bullies).

It is sometimes difficult for a kid who hung around with a bully (or a group of bullies) to make the transition to a group of "good kids" who witnessed the bullying. Even if the hanger on kid didn't do anything more than stand on the sidelines as the bullying happened.


Just be aware of these possible dynamics.

[Ryan]

Mar 21, 2023 18:33:26 GMT -5 Pink Cashmere said:

Bullying among children is something I always have something to say about, because my son was bullied so badly in middle school, that we ended up on a long and difficult road after one of his teachers found a note he’d written about wanting to commit suicide when he was 12yo. 

My son is alive and thriving, and will be 30yo this year, but bullying is still something I take very seriously and encourage parents to take seriously too. 

When DD was in 5th grade, there was a girl in her class that apparently many parents besides me, had told their children to avoid. Most of these children had gone to school together since kindergarten, so over the years, I was not the only parent that felt like this child had some issues, and advised my child to stay away from her.

So, one day I’m at the school waiting for my children to come to the car, and some little boy asked me if DD had told me what happened that day. I said no, what happened? And he told me. My children came to the car soon after that little boy told me what happened, and I asked DD what happened, and she told me the same thing the little boy had told me. So I gout out of my car and took my narrow ass inside the school because I needed answers.

When I got to DD’s classroom, there was a man already in there, talking to the teacher and he was very upset because his daughter had come to his car saying the same thing the little boy and my daughter said.

The girl who other parents had told their children to avoid, her Mom had come to the school that morning “to spend some time with her daughter and have lunch with her”. Well during lunch, she sat at the table with the children and demanded to know why the girls wouldn’t play with her daughter and told them she would “slap the shit out of them”. 

Ummmm, that behavior was probably why her daughter was the way she was. 

When I went in the school, the teacher didn’t want to deal with or discuss the issue with me or the man that was upset about what his daughter had told him.

So I went inside the school the next morning when I dropped my kids off, and asked to speak to the Principal. She didn’t really want to deal with it either. But somehow (I honestly don’t remember how), I’d learned that the woman that did that worked for the Board of Education. So I showed up at the Board of Education too, to tell them what she did while she should’ve been at work, and asked if this is the kind of shit my local taxes pay for, for employees of the school system to bully and threaten physical harm to young children while they are at school?

And just a few years later, all that stuff happened with my son being bullied at school and me having to try to get help for him and do what I could do to help him too. 3 of the boys that had been tormenting him, beat him up in the bathroom, kicking him after they’d already knocked him down. My son has never been one to cry, but when he finally got out of the bathroom and was in tears, his teacher just told him to go sit down. That memory makes me SO angry and hurts my heart so much at the same time, even after all these years. 

So while I was getting my son help so he would want to stay here with me, I was battling with his school and the Board of Education (again) at the same time, because school should’ve been a safe place for my son, and I was very clear that once I dropped him off at school in the morning, he was THEIR responsibility, and it was their fucking jobs to ensure he was safe from being bullied, and I expected them to do their damn jobs. While I was battling with them, one time I was at the school and one of my son’s teachers told me how those boys tormented my son all the time in her class, and I wanted to punch her in the throat, because why did you not do anything about it bitch? 

So, now that I’ve been through the woods and across the river, I encourage you to NOT feel bad about anything you do to try to protect your son from being bullied. You can help him pursue his interests in hopes of him making new friends that aren’t mean and he has something in common with. But whatever you do, do not feel bad for trying to protect him from bullies. A lot of children’s parents didn’t have the time that I was given to try to help my son, something I will always be grateful for. Some parents have lost their children to suicide because they were being bullied. 

I’m not saying it’s that bad for your son, I am just saying that our children don’t always have the tools to deal with bullying, by themselves, and I am encouraging you to talk to your son and let him know it’s okay for him to talk to you about whatever is going on in his life and how he feels about it. And again, I encourage you to not feel bad about trying to protect him from bullies. There are other children out there that would be glad to be your son’s friend. Figure out how to have him cross paths with those kind of children, if you can.

Wow that is awful, glad your son is doing well these days.  I do worry about the impact of kids, especially with my boy, he is very sensitive and seems to impact him more than other kids.  

[Ryan]

Mar 21, 2023 19:11:28 GMT -5 Sharon said:

Oh where to begin with middle school bullying.  DD went to private school for elementary school and that school also went through 6th grade so she started middle school as a 7th grader and only had two years of middle school but what a long two years.

We can start with her main tormentor S.  The girl who spit on her books, took her books and wouldn't give them back, shoved her in the hallway, would scribble all over her homework just as they were getting ready to turn it in, you get the picture.  She kept getting sat next to S by the teachers because they wanted DD to be a good influence on her.  I would have to call the school repeatedly to get them split up.  DD was facing some fines for lost school books and DD doesn't lose anything, organization should be her middle name.  The books eventually turned up in other classrooms where DD didn't even have class, oh but S did.

Then we also had A who would egg on other people to make fun of DD.  A actually outgrew some of that behavior and DD asked her in high school why she was so mean to her in middle school and she was honestly shocked that DD thought she was mean.  They talked about what happened and she saw why DD was upset and apologized.  It wasn't fun going through though when DD would come home crying.

We also had T who had PE with DD and decided for whatever reason to get very physical with DD.  Things like standing a couple feet in front of her and throwing a basketball as hard as she could into her face.  The PE teacher saw it and sent T to the office.  T then decided to start following DD home from school and threaten her.  When I talked with the PE teacher about that she told me to take those threats very seriously.  I arranged for the Aunt of a couple of her dance friends to pick DD up and take her to and from school for a few weeks until that calmed down.  We lived 3 blocks from school and DD walked.

Through it all I worked hard to keep the lines of communication open and what happened in school today, is everything okay, is there anything we need to talk about.  I also stressed how those kids would go no where in life and probably wouldn't even graduate from high school, which was the case for two of them.  DD was looking to get into honors track for high school.  A couple of the middle school teachers really encouraged her to go that route.  I don't know if the teachers helped to plant this idea or if DD figured it out herself but one day she told me if I do honors those kids won't be in my classes because they don't qualify.  I told her that's right.  S had a baby in 10th grade and dropped out.  I'm not sure if T dropped out in 10th grade or beginning of 11th grade.  DD continued with the honors track and ended up graduating high school with a year worth of college credits.

It was always a little hard for me to figure the severity of things because my son has always been a little more sensitive.  He was the type of kid that would get teary eyed as a kid reading a story.  If you catch him when he's tired, he's a little more likely to get down about things, which is why we usually tell him to just go to bed.  We now continue to check in with him each day to see if he is feeling ok, we just ask him to be 100% honest.  

[Ryan]

Mar 22, 2023 12:19:55 GMT -5 steph08 said:

Mar 22, 2023 9:03:41 GMT -5 minnesotapaintlady said:

I totally control my kid's friend group and don't feel guilty about it at all.  One of the advantages of living out in the sticks is my kids are never able to just wander over to friend's houses on their own which makes it easier for me. 

Raising my kids in the same area that I grew up in does have its perks - I went to school with many of the parents and definitely do steer my children in certain directions and away from others.

But my oldest (almost 9) seems to really understand the "fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me" aspect. She has one friend that wasn't always kind last year. She is friends with her still and hangs out with her in school, but she doesn't list her among her top friends (like if I ask her to narrow down to 5 kids for a birthday party, etc.). She keeps her at a distance.

Parenting is so hard. 

I'm so thankful where we live since it's a bit more secluded and does not have as many kids.  Having grown up in a pretty vibrant neighborhood, I did recognize that it kinda sucks to be "forced" to be friends with neighborhood kids.  Still though, I did want SOME kids around for my kids.  Seeing this whole situation makes me so happy that we don't live anywhere near these kids and my kids can choose who they want to spend time with.

[Ryan]

Just as a general update, our plan seems to be working out pretty well over the last week.  We planned a get together with his "new" friend group and pretty much cut off communication with the old one.  He was in a big group chat with his old friend group and we blocked the 2 bullies, but he was still seeing communication coming through from everyone else.  We ended up blocking everyone in the group that he doesn't have direct contact with, now at least when he sees messages, they almost make no sense because the rest of the conversation is not there.  He didn't want to have the big "exit" from the group chat and get questioned on why he left.

I think actually us blocking him from seeing them and blocking their text messages gave him a huge relief.  He can now come home and feel safe.  He also seems like he feels empowered now knowing it doesn't matter if they don't want to be his friend.  Really they were never physically bullying him, it was more like mental torture.  I think he is slowly realizing that he was scared over nothing (them not being friends with him).  

What I really want him to do at this point is move lunch tables, but one step at a time.  He's at a very large table, so he doesn't have much interaction.

I pretty much tell him daily that he is going to look back and realize more and more that they weren't good friends, they weren't even good kids.  The in-between is kinda sucky though.

[Pink Cashmere]

If someone does ask about the chat group, he can say my Dad said I can’t participate in it anymore. I think it might be easier to blame you for not doing things than to say he doesn’t want to, until he gets more confidence to say “no” on his own. 

The problem with my son was that he wasn’t a rough and tumble kind of boy, and he was small for his age. He started having growth spurts so fast, it seemed like he was outgrowing his clothes and shoes every other week. And suddenly I had to look up to talk to him, and I was like when did that happen?! So in addition to all the counseling and stuff, and me insisting that the school deal with the bullies, I’m sure it helped that he wasn’t so small anymore.

I’m glad that what you’ve done so far seems to be helping him. I’m sure knowing that you took the way it was affecting him seriously helped a lot. Parents don’t always listen to their children or just Pooh Pooh their concerns. Good job Dad!

[teen persuasion]

Mar 23, 2023 13:12:39 GMT -5 Pink Cashmere said:

If someone does ask about the chat group, he can say my Dad said I can’t participate in it anymore. I think it might be easier to blame you for not doing things than to say he doesn’t want to, until he gets more confidence to say “no” on his own. 

Yeah, we always told our kids that we had no problem being the fall-guy if they wanted to blame us (parents) for anything they didn't feel comfortable participating in.  Throw us under the bus in the eyes of your friends!  It's cool with us, they aren't OUR friends, so we don't care what they think. 


 And maybe you (whichever kid) shouldn't care so much about what others think, either.  If you don't wanna do X, then say you don't do X.  But if that's too hard, you can blame us.  Think for yourself instead of accepting the group-think.

[Tennesseer]

Came across the first video by chance on YouTube. Will briefly introduce the two main characters in video one and two. Link to the story about resignation of superintendent Lance Hindt after the videos.  Hindt was a bully in at least secondary school.

On May 10, 2018, Lance Hindt resigned as superintendent of the Katy Independent School District in Texas, USA.[1] This resignation followed intense media scrutiny after Hindt had been exposed for two distinct moral failings in his younger years; first, a history of being a violent bully as attested to by multiple witnesses,[2] and second, having plagiarized his Ed.D thesis.[3]

After resigning, Hindt was illegally paid nearly a million dollars in severance money from the Katy ISD's treasury. The State of Texas penalized the district half a million dollars in retaliation for the illegal siphoning of taxpayer money from public accounts to Hindt's pockets.

Resignation of Lance Hindt

[Ryan]

Mar 23, 2023 20:59:03 GMT -5 teen persuasion said:

Mar 23, 2023 13:12:39 GMT -5 Pink Cashmere said:

If someone does ask about the chat group, he can say my Dad said I can’t participate in it anymore. I think it might be easier to blame you for not doing things than to say he doesn’t want to, until he gets more confidence to say “no” on his own. 

Yeah, we always told our kids that we had no problem being the fall-guy if they wanted to blame us (parents) for anything they didn't feel comfortable participating in.  Throw us under the bus in the eyes of your friends!  It's cool with us, they aren't OUR friends, so we don't care what they think. 


 And maybe you (whichever kid) shouldn't care so much about what others think, either.  If you don't wanna do X, then say you don't do X.  But if that's too hard, you can blame us.  Think for yourself instead of accepting the group-think.

I tell my kids the same thing and it worked great for my older 2.  In those cases, they tended to use it when they were avoiding an activity and maybe occasionally the mix of kids.  In this case, it just got to the point where we realized this entire friend group is probably poisoned by these 2-3 kids so it wasn't worth it to have him waste time there any longer.  It was kinda pointless too because he kept making excuses for why he couldn't hang out (like my parents won't let me), which does work fine initially but is a little harder to keep using if they are asking you to do something every day.  

We pretty much just told him to switch friend groups and I think he actually started realizing it as he stepped away.  I think he remembered these kids being really nice in the past and having a lot of fun with them, but those instances were less and less.  Had to have some long conversations about how people change and sometimes you just need to move on.