Tyre Nichols and a City on Edge

[andi9899]

Jan 29, 2023 20:22:25 GMT -5 scgal said:

Jan 28, 2023 16:48:53 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

I can understand civil unrest when white cops kill yet another black man. When I saw pictures of the accused, I was shocked! They were all black!
Why would black cops beat a black man to death? Just for the hell of it? A slow day?
I don't get it.

That is a serious issue also. If it was a white cop that killed a black man oh it would just have to be racial. Why can't it just be a bad cop. The reason it just doesn't fit the narrative that there is so much systemic racism. 

The fact that these cops are black doesn't mean that there isn't systemic racism running rampant in this country. One incident doesn't cancel out centuries of racism that white people want to pretend doesn't exist or isn't "that bad'.

Black people are still 5 times more likely to be arrested than white people for committing the same crimes. Hell, sometimes there is no crime and they still get arrested or shot when a white person is let go with a warning. Failure to acknowledge that fact is willful ignorance on your part.

[scgal]

Jan 30, 2023 9:39:15 GMT -5 andi9899 said:

Jan 29, 2023 20:22:25 GMT -5 scgal said:

That is a serious issue also. If it was a white cop that killed a black man oh it would just have to be racial. Why can't it just be a bad cop. The reason it just doesn't fit the narrative that there is so much systemic racism. 

The fact that these cops are black doesn't mean that there isn't systemic racism running rampant in this country. One incident doesn't cancel out centuries of racism that white people want to pretend doesn't exist or isn't "that bad'.

Black people are still 5 times more likely to be arrested than white people for committing the same crimes. Hell, sometimes there is no crime and they still get arrested or shot when a white person is let go with a warning. Failure to acknowledge that fact is willful ignorance on your part.

It is not a failure to acknowledge but the numbers don't prove it on the police level. 

[andi9899]

Jan 30, 2023 9:52:08 GMT -5 scgal said:

Jan 30, 2023 9:39:15 GMT -5 andi9899 said:

The fact that these cops are black doesn't mean that there isn't systemic racism running rampant in this country. One incident doesn't cancel out centuries of racism that white people want to pretend doesn't exist or isn't "that bad'.

Black people are still 5 times more likely to be arrested than white people for committing the same crimes. Hell, sometimes there is no crime and they still get arrested or shot when a white person is let go with a warning. Failure to acknowledge that fact is willful ignorance on your part.

It is not a failure to acknowledge but the numbers don't prove it on the police level. 

Really? Tell that to the families of George Floyd, Briana Taylor, Amir Locke, etc. And those are just the most recent examples that do not include the thousands more over the history of this country including those that don't make the news.

[scgal]

Jan 30, 2023 10:00:16 GMT -5 andi9899 said:

Jan 30, 2023 9:52:08 GMT -5 scgal said:

It is not a failure to acknowledge but the numbers don't prove it on the police level. 

Really? Tell that to the families of George Floyd, Briana Taylor, Amir Locke, etc. And those are just the most recent examples that do not include the thousands more over the history of this country including those that don't make the news.

The only one I see with a racial element maybe George Floyd. Just because they're black and was killed does not mean there was racism. More of poor training

[andi9899]

Jan 30, 2023 10:13:39 GMT -5 scgal said:

Jan 30, 2023 10:00:16 GMT -5 andi9899 said:

Really? Tell that to the families of George Floyd, Briana Taylor, Amir Locke, etc. And those are just the most recent examples that do not include the thousands more over the history of this country including those that don't make the news.

The only one I see with a racial element maybe George Floyd. Just because they're black and was killed does not mean there was racism. More of poor training

You must be delusional. I never said there wasn't poor training involved. However they most definitely were treated the way they were because they were black. Had a white person been in the same situation, they would have gone home to their loved ones instead of dying.

[swamp]

Jan 30, 2023 9:25:45 GMT -5 scgal said:

Jan 30, 2023 0:11:16 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

because it is never A bad cop.  in this case it was at least five bad cops.  and if you look at every case of police brutality, it is NEVER just ONE bad cop.  so, yeah.  i have really given up on the argument that it is just a few bad eggs.  this is a systemic problem.  and it has been fairly well researched at this point as to WHY.  and yes, there is a racial element to it.  black people can absorb racist practices just as easily as black people can absorb other amoral or immoral behavior.  it is a product of training, in most cases.  that is what i mean by systemic.

I disagree the product of training being systemic. At any given time there is approx 750000 officers in the US. There is nothing systemic when you run the numbers

But there is. 

Black people are more likely to be pulled over, arrested, and sentenced to incarceration than white people. 

Black people with guns are thugs.  White people with guns are just exercising their 2nd amendment rights. 

Do you think that if the Jan 6 rioters weren't white, they would have been shot immediately upon entry?  I do.    

[scgal]

Jan 30, 2023 10:56:06 GMT -5 andi9899 said:

Jan 30, 2023 10:13:39 GMT -5 scgal said:

The only one I see with a racial element maybe George Floyd. Just because they're black and was killed does not mean there was racism. More of poor training

You must be delusional. I never said there wasn't poor training involved. However they most definitely were treated the way they were because they were black. Had a white person been in the same situation, they would have gone home to their loved ones instead of dying.

And what proof do you have for that? 

[andi9899]

Jan 30, 2023 11:41:30 GMT -5 scgal said:

Jan 30, 2023 10:56:06 GMT -5 andi9899 said:

You must be delusional. I never said there wasn't poor training involved. However they most definitely were treated the way they were because they were black. Had a white person been in the same situation, they would have gone home to their loved ones instead of dying.

And what proof do you have for that? 

History. Black people are far more likely to be pulled over than white people. They are also far more likely to be incarcerated or killed by a police officer. Can you name a white victim of police brutality off the top of your head because I can't? Hell, Jeffrey Dahmer had multiple run ins with police and was let go. He was even pulled over with a dead body in the backseat once and was let go. No way would that happen with a black person.

[scgal]

Jan 30, 2023 11:31:35 GMT -5 swamp said:

Jan 30, 2023 9:25:45 GMT -5 scgal said:

I disagree the product of training being systemic. At any given time there is approx 750000 officers in the US. There is nothing systemic when you run the numbers

But there is. 

Black people are more likely to be pulled over, arrested, and sentenced to incarceration than white people. 

Black people with guns are thugs.  White people with guns are just exercising their 2nd amendment rights. 

Do you think that if the Jan 6 rioters weren't white, they would have been shot immediately upon entry?  I do.    

lets look at the number
Murders in the us
7964 total  white comitted 3650  african american 4078. The us is 61% white and almost 14% african american. If one race is committing more of the crime then they will be more arrests. 

[swamp]

Jan 30, 2023 12:01:23 GMT -5 scgal said:

Jan 30, 2023 11:31:35 GMT -5 swamp said:

But there is. 

Black people are more likely to be pulled over, arrested, and sentenced to incarceration than white people. 

Black people with guns are thugs.  White people with guns are just exercising their 2nd amendment rights. 

Do you think that if the Jan 6 rioters weren't white, they would have been shot immediately upon entry?  I do.    

lets look at the number
Murders in the us
7964 total  white comitted 3650  african american 4078. The us is 61% white and almost 14% african american. If one race is committing more of the crime then they will be more arrests. 

murders are just one of many crimes. 

[billisonboard]

Jan 30, 2023 12:11:42 GMT -5 swamp said:

Jan 30, 2023 12:01:23 GMT -5 scgal said:

lets look at the number
Murders in the us
7964 total  white comitted 3650  african american 4078. The us is 61% white and almost 14% african american. If one race is committing more of the crime then they will be more arrests. 

murders are just one of many crimes. 

And, IM(not so)HO, the least significant. What matters more is that blacks are more likely to be contacted by police, leading to more likely to be searched, leading to more likely to be arrested if contraband is found, leading to more likely to be prosecuted, leading to more likely to be incarcerated, leading to a record difficult to overcome.

[andi9899]

Jan 30, 2023 12:01:23 GMT -5 scgal said:

Jan 30, 2023 11:31:35 GMT -5 swamp said:

But there is. 

Black people are more likely to be pulled over, arrested, and sentenced to incarceration than white people. 

Black people with guns are thugs.  White people with guns are just exercising their 2nd amendment rights. 

Do you think that if the Jan 6 rioters weren't white, they would have been shot immediately upon entry?  I do.    

lets look at the number
Murders in the us
7964 total  white comitted 3650  african american 4078. The us is 61% white and almost 14% african american. If one race is committing more of the crime then they will be more arrests. 

The people I mentioned earlier weren't even suspected of murder. They were just existing while black and paid the ultimate price for doing so.

[laterbloomer]

Jan 30, 2023 9:52:08 GMT -5 scgal said:

Jan 30, 2023 9:39:15 GMT -5 andi9899 said:

The fact that these cops are black doesn't mean that there isn't systemic racism running rampant in this country. One incident doesn't cancel out centuries of racism that white people want to pretend doesn't exist or isn't "that bad'.

Black people are still 5 times more likely to be arrested than white people for committing the same crimes. Hell, sometimes there is no crime and they still get arrested or shot when a white person is let go with a warning. Failure to acknowledge that fact is willful ignorance on your part.

It is not a failure to acknowledge but the numbers don't prove it on the police level.

You have to factor in who is collecting the numbers.

[thyme4change]

I don’t ever recall a white officer getting fired immediately for beating someone to death. Do you think their quick firing / charges is a sign that we have progressed? Or is it just easier to see black men as ‘wrong’ (even if they are the police) and start the consequences immediately?

[Pink Cashmere]

Jan 30, 2023 14:31:39 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

I don’t ever recall a white officer getting fired immediately for beating someone to death. Do you think their quick firing / charges is a sign that we have progressed? Or is it just easier to see black men as ‘wrong’ (even if they are the police) and start the consequences immediately?

These are the same concerns and questions Memphians are expressing and asking. I haven’t watched the videos, but apparently there was a white officer on the scene in the video, that everyone has been asking about. I think he is one of the 2 sheriffs deputies that have been placed on administrative leave. Many people are asking the same questions you just did, and nobody thinks it has anything to do with progress.

I think at least part of it was because they knew how bad it was and that they had to move quickly before the videos were released. Otherwise, the whole city might have burned down. Maybe not literally, but I have no doubt at all that all hell would’ve broken loose and it would’ve gotten very ugly.

[billisonboard]

Jan 30, 2023 17:28:02 GMT -5 Pink Cashmere said:

Jan 30, 2023 14:31:39 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

I don’t ever recall a white officer getting fired immediately for beating someone to death. Do you think their quick firing / charges is a sign that we have progressed? Or is it just easier to see black men as ‘wrong’ (even if they are the police) and start the consequences immediately?

These are the same concerns and questions Memphians are expressing and asking. I haven’t watched the videos, but apparently there was a white officer on the scene in the video, that everyone has been asking about. I think he is one of the 2 sheriffs deputies that have been placed on administrative leave. Many people are asking the same questions you just did, and nobody thinks it has anything to do with progress.

I think at least part of it was because they knew how bad it was and that they had to move quickly before the videos were released. Otherwise, the whole city might have burned down. Maybe not literally, but I have no doubt at all that all hell would’ve broken loose and it would’ve gotten very ugly.

Events took place at two locations. There was violence and threats at the first which caused Nichols to flee for his life. It was at the second location that the fatal blows were delivered. It has been reported that the white officer was not at the second location. link

[Pink Cashmere]

Jan 30, 2023 18:55:58 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Jan 30, 2023 17:28:02 GMT -5 Pink Cashmere said:

These are the same concerns and questions Memphians are expressing and asking. I haven’t watched the videos, but apparently there was a white officer on the scene in the video, that everyone has been asking about. I think he is one of the 2 sheriffs deputies that have been placed on administrative leave. Many people are asking the same questions you just did, and nobody thinks it has anything to do with progress.

I think at least part of it was because they knew how bad it was and that they had to move quickly before the videos were released. Otherwise, the whole city might have burned down. Maybe not literally, but I have no doubt at all that all hell would’ve broken loose and it would’ve gotten very ugly.

Events took place at two locations. There was violence and threats at the first which caused Nichols to flee for his life. It was at the second location that the fatal blows were delivered. It has been reported that the white officer was not at the second location. link

I will have to look at the link you provided later. I can only deal with what actually happened that night a little at a time and in small doses because it upsets my nerves so much. I hope you and other posters can understand that and extend me a little grace for that when it may seem like I am ignoring posts and/or the conversation.

Also, because I intentionally limit what I read about it (I most definitely do not want to see the videos or even pictures from that night), that is why when I do speak on it here, I try to be clear about what I think and heard, vs what has been reported in the media as fact. 

[billisonboard]

Jan 30, 2023 19:14:32 GMT -5 Pink Cashmere said:

Jan 30, 2023 18:55:58 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Events took place at two locations. There was violence and threats at the first which caused Nichols to flee for his life. It was at the second location that the fatal blows were delivered. It has been reported that the white officer was not at the second location. link

I will have to look at the link you provided later. I can only deal with what actually happened that night a little at a time and in small doses because it upsets my nerves so much. I hope you and other posters can understand that and extend me a little grace for that when it may seem like I am ignoring posts and/or the conversation.

Also, because I intentionally limit what I read about it (I most definitely do not want to see the videos or even pictures from that night), that is why when I do speak on it here, I try to be clear about what I think and heard, vs what has been reported in the media as fact. 

No real need to look at the link. It doesn't say much significant beyond that little factor I wrote about. I just included it to preclude any "where did you get that" comeback question.

Please know I understand your need to take care of yourself. Not an issue for me at all.

[djAdvocate]

Jan 30, 2023 9:25:45 GMT -5 scgal said:

Jan 30, 2023 0:11:16 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

because it is never A bad cop.  in this case it was at least five bad cops.  and if you look at every case of police brutality, it is NEVER just ONE bad cop.  so, yeah.  i have really given up on the argument that it is just a few bad eggs.  this is a systemic problem.  and it has been fairly well researched at this point as to WHY.  and yes, there is a racial element to it.  black people can absorb racist practices just as easily as black people can absorb other amoral or immoral behavior.  it is a product of training, in most cases.  that is what i mean by systemic.

I disagree the product of training being systemic. At any given time there is approx 750000 officers in the US. There is nothing systemic when you run the numbers

i know of no other way to describe the 1033 program.  Desensitization training is also a serious problem.  there is also a widespread use of tactical consultants that basically train police to treat problems the same as soldiers treat enemies of war.  and of course there is a long history of racism, racist policies, etc. in the police.

when you sum it all up, it is difficult to not see this as a systemic problem.

[djAdvocate]

Jan 30, 2023 12:01:23 GMT -5 scgal said:

Jan 30, 2023 11:31:35 GMT -5 swamp said:

But there is. 

Black people are more likely to be pulled over, arrested, and sentenced to incarceration than white people. 

Black people with guns are thugs.  White people with guns are just exercising their 2nd amendment rights. 

Do you think that if the Jan 6 rioters weren't white, they would have been shot immediately upon entry?  I do.    

lets look at the number
Murders in the us
7964 total  white comitted 3650  african american 4078. The us is 61% white and almost 14% african american. If one race is committing more of the crime then they will be more arrests. 

what percent of white people are living in poverty?  what percent of black people?

edit> i will save you the trouble.  5.1% and 27.7%.  so there is basically a 5/1 difference.  so, if you associate crime with poverty rather than race, you will find that the numbers are almost the same

61/14 is almost the same number as 27.7/5.1.  in fact, considering the level of poverty, i would generally expect even more crime among blacks than there is.

[djAdvocate]

Jan 30, 2023 10:13:39 GMT -5 scgal said:

Jan 30, 2023 10:00:16 GMT -5 andi9899 said:

Really? Tell that to the families of George Floyd, Briana Taylor, Amir Locke, etc. And those are just the most recent examples that do not include the thousands more over the history of this country including those that don't make the news.

The only one I see with a racial element maybe George Floyd. Just because they're black and was killed does not mean there was racism. More of poor training

i am kind of over the poor training excuse.  police are generally well funded.  if they are poorly trained, that is also a choice that has implications that are part of the systemic problem.

[djAdvocate]

Jan 30, 2023 9:52:08 GMT -5 scgal said:

Jan 30, 2023 9:39:15 GMT -5 andi9899 said:

The fact that these cops are black doesn't mean that there isn't systemic racism running rampant in this country. One incident doesn't cancel out centuries of racism that white people want to pretend doesn't exist or isn't "that bad'.

Black people are still 5 times more likely to be arrested than white people for committing the same crimes. Hell, sometimes there is no crime and they still get arrested or shot when a white person is let go with a warning. Failure to acknowledge that fact is willful ignorance on your part.

It is not a failure to acknowledge but the numbers don't prove it on the police level. 

i want to give you a personal challenge, here.

i think you are mistaking "systemic problems" for UNIVERSAL problems.  the school system has systemic problems, for example.  it has been clearly shown that the emphasis on competition- pitting students, classrooms, and schools against one another is adverse to favorable educational outcomes.  does this mean that all teachers are bad?  of course not.  does it mean that they are caught up in a system which rewards failure?  yes.  

the same is true for policing.  the best police work AROUND the system.  not through it.

[Tennesseer]

Opinion

Tyre Nichols couldn’t have obeyed the police if he wanted to
Camera footage shows Tyre Nichols being told to do the impossible.

When 29-year-old Tyre Nichols was stopped by police in Memphis, Tennessee, on Jan. 7 over what police said was suspicion of reckless driving, he was beaten so badly that three days later he was dead. A single statistic from an excellent New York Times video investigation helps illuminate how that happened.

According to the Times, several police officers gave Nichols 71 commands in 13 minutes — many of which were “confusing, conflicting and sometimes even impossible to obey” because of how police were pinning him down.

If you watch the disturbing video of the exchange, you can see how the instructions weren’t meant to help Nichols cooperate with the police. Instead, they provided the police with a pretext to further escalate violence.

The deployment of often-nonsensical instructions underscores a key aspect of how Nichols ended up dead after a traffic stop. According to former law enforcement officials and experts, the police were exhibiting a policing ideology in which cops view dominating suspects as essential to their self-preservation and identity.

An examination of the video footage shows how the police's behavior was about bullying and striking fear in Nichols more than it was about upholding the law. Police swiftly dragged Nichols out of his car during the traffic stop. At one point, while one officer pinned his wrist down, another one told him to place his hands behind his back. Around the same time, he was told to lie down — even though he was already on the ground. Moments later, the cops agreed that he should be pepper-sprayed, and he was immediately sprayed in the eyes.

Later, as the police tried to use a stun gun at him, Nichols ran toward what turned out to be his parents’ house. It is perhaps not surprising that he feared for his life given how the police seemed like they couldn’t be mollified. (Note: Nichols was unarmed and rail thin, and as the police initially dragged him out of his car and cursed at him, he spoke in a distinctly calm tone.)

When police caught up to Nichols, again, the video again shows that their instructions didn’t help him find a way out of the violence but appears to provide an excuse for it. For example, he was told to show his hands as he was being hit with a baton even while one of his wrists was handcuffed and his arms were pinned behind him. Nichols was at multiple points kicked in the head as pointless instructions washed over him.

Experts and ex-law enforcement officials have described the treatment of Nichols as a throwback to an antiquated style of thuggish policing that is supposedly considered inappropriate these days. I’m not convinced that such behavior has fallen out of fashion, or at least not persisted in subtler form. Despite public scrutiny and reform efforts in recent years, police violence remains a crisis, and police unions (with at least some degree of support from both political parties) have successfully lobbied against any substantive efforts to constrain the power of police.

But regardless of whether or not you think the problem is getting better, one thing is clear: These police weren’t striving to uphold public safety.

“Their job, they believed, because you were disrespecting the badge, you needed to be beaten, and they were going to teach you a lesson. In some agencies, that history is the history that is there, and nobody talks about it,” Georgetown Law professor Paul Butler, an NBC News legal analyst, said Sunday on MSNBC.

It probably shouldn’t surprise us that such a culture seems to have existed among a specialized strike force in the Memphis police called Scorpion, which, remarkably, stands for Street Crimes Operation to Restore Peace in Our Neighborhoods. The group was formed in response to Memphis’ skyrocketing rate of homicides, and the city touted the group's high arrest rate to claim it was serious about tackling crime. But some residents say the unit had a reputation for bullying the public. Now Scorpion has disbanded after five former Memphis police officers were indicted on murder charges tied to Nichols' death.

A high crime rate is a serious social problem. But brutally bullying those who pose no danger to the public isn’t a serious solution.

Tyre Nichols couldn’t have obeyed the police if he wanted to

[Pink Cashmere]

The Hernando Desoto bridge was lit with the colors of Tyre Nichol’s favorite football team, the 49ers. I think that was a nice gesture. His funeral is today.

[Pink Cashmere]

So now we have another officer involved shooting. The “suspect” is dead and I think the officer was injured. I don’t know any details concerning what happened. I just keep seeing on FB that the streets are “hot” because something happened.

And although it may not seem like it because of my posts about the police and police brutality, I absolutely want each and every one of our GOOD LEO’s to go home every single day without injury or any kind of harm. The bad ones…. I don’t really care what happens to them.

ETA: Apparently it happened at a library and the police say the suspect shot at the police officer first. The officer is critically injured.

[Pink Cashmere]

So today, the news is saying that one of the 5 officers originally fired for beating Tyre Nichols, sent a picture of his bloody and broken body to at least 5 people. One was a female that has nothing to do with law enforcement. And it was that Haley guy that has a reputation in the streets and on record as a jailer, for being violent, and also the same person people kept saying had a personal beef with Mr. Nichols over a woman. 

I am really curious who the woman he sent the video to is. Because, why send it to her? Who she is and why he sent her the picture has fueled the fire of people saying that the beating was personal because Mr. Nichols was dating an ex of one of the officers, and it’s always been said that it was Haley’s ex. Mister Nichol’s family said it wasn’t true, but who is the woman and why did Haley send her the picture? 

And if it was personal on Haley’s part, how simple minded and stupid were the other officers for taking part in what was done to Mr. Nichols? If a man can’t even think for himself, is he really even a man?

I live in the suburbs and a couple of days ago I drove past something that mattered to me. There are several churches near my home, and I ASSume most or all of them have congregations of White people. The other day, I saw that one had put up what had to be a custom made sign, close to the big busy street, saying “Justice for Tyre”. The sign had a person holding a sign saying that. And I know I’m not being ridiculous thinking it’s a church with a predominantly White congregation, because the person on the sign was a White man.

That actually meant something to me, in ways I can’t really articulate now. I’ve been looking at my neighbors sideways and not been all that friendly to them unless they broke the ice first, for a few years now. I can’t seem to help it, because racism is still very much a thing where I live, always has been, and I don’t know who is who. It’s not even close to how I want to live, but I am under no illusions about living in the South and amongst a bunch of racists.

We can talk about churches and religion and all the man made bs that comes along with the 2, but it honestly did mean something to me for that big church to put that sign up right next to a very busy street. So out of all the churches near me, if I’m ever off on a Sunday and decide to go to church, if I decide to go to one near my home, guess which one I would choose.

This Haley guy is clearly just a piece of shit, period, and always has been. It’s been too much said about him in the streets and in the media, for it to be even remotely possible that he is a good person. Me saying that doesn’t let the others off the hook, they need to fry too. Literally. The vengeful side of me just really wants Haley to suffer at least some of what he doled out while he was hiding behind a badge. The others too, but especially him.

They are all out on bonds. How? Where did the money come from? I want all of them to be dealt with, but I especially want Haley in jail. Now. Put him in the general population. I’ve heard there are people waiting to greet him. 

[billisonboard]

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[daisylu]

I have not really followed this story, so I have nothing to add on that other than this country has been talking about police brutality against POC (specifically black people) since 1988. At least that is when I remember it taking a national stage. Hello NWA.

On a personal note, I am sorry that POC have to feel a certain way about white people when they meet them. Hell, a lot of them you can't even trust when things get hard. Please remember that there are good people out there, it is just the bad people who get the headlines.

[andi9899]

The officers involved appeared in court. These bitches plead not guilty! This trail is going to be interesting.

[djAdvocate]

they are counting on the shield law.