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Post by minnesotapaintlady on Nov 4, 2022 20:37:03 GMT -5
Ok, now I know I'm getting old if I've moved on to researching these... Anyone purchased an SPIA (Single Premium Immediate Annuity), or planning on doing so? I was always dead set against them, but I'm really starting to think of going this route. I wouldn't put all my retirement savings in one, but maybe 20-30%. Just enough that combined with SS my baseline needs are taken care of so that I wouldn't have to make withdrawals if I didn't want to or the market was down. I actually have a rollover IRA I'm kind of eyeballing. It's one that was 22K a couple decades ago and I haven't added to it since. It's now about 200K. It would be kind of cool to get a lifetime of income off that original 22K. What I can't figure out is when is the best time to buy one? I'm seeing age 70 being thrown out there a lot, but haven't figured out why yet. I know I wouldn't want to do it before qualifying for Medicare so I would have more income control for ACA subsidies prior to that, but not sure I want to wait until 70 either.
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CCL
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Post by CCL on Nov 4, 2022 23:09:43 GMT -5
Do you have any sort of pension coming your way in retirement?
If you are going to wait til you are 70 or even 65, why not just draw the money from your account? Or pay your house off by then and that will reduce the dollars you need in retirement?
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jerseygirl
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Post by jerseygirl on Nov 5, 2022 9:22:14 GMT -5
I have an annuity. One lump payment about 30% of retirement. Not immediate, but delay of one year . It’s great to have a monthly check coming in. this and SS covers all our monthly bills .No worries about fluctuations in the stock market or whether or not to sell . From a major insurance company. Yes return is less than an investment in good years but won’t decrease in bad stock years. I like the reliability very much. I still have major portion in stock market to hedge against inflation over the years. Only once (this month) has the annuity and SS not easily covered monthly bill but that’s because our quarterly property tax $4500 and oil both due. Actually because of the big increase in oil price to $5.50/gallon. Figured out by delaying some payments don’t need to take anything from brokerage account It’s like a pension but the money I put in is guaranteed to be returned to my heirs. I took a lump sum when I retired decided not to take a pension because my heirs would get nothing
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Post by minnesotapaintlady on Nov 5, 2022 10:18:14 GMT -5
Do you have any sort of pension coming your way in retirement? If you are going to wait til you are 70 or even 65, why not just draw the money from your account? Or pay your house off by then and that will reduce the dollars you need in retirement? I have no pension and my SS will be small even waiting until 70. Probably less than 2K/month. I can just draw money from my account, but then I'm limited to only drawing enough to make sure I have money in case I live an exceptionally long time. The conventional wisdom is 4%, but the annuity quotes I'm looking at pay out a lot more than that because they're only worried about average life span. So with 250K, I can "safely" pull $833/month on my own, but the annuities would pay more like $1500/month ($1200 to start if I opt for the 2% annual COL increase to be included)
I'm thinking once I'm 70 I'm not going to want to be actively managing investments anymore. I don't know. It sounds rather appealing to have a solid base of guaranteed income with the investments tacked on as gravy.
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Rukh O'Rorke
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Post by Rukh O'Rorke on Nov 5, 2022 12:08:04 GMT -5
Do you have any sort of pension coming your way in retirement? If you are going to wait til you are 70 or even 65, why not just draw the money from your account? Or pay your house off by then and that will reduce the dollars you need in retirement? I have no pension and my SS will be small even waiting until 70. Probably less than 2K/month. I can just draw money from my account, but then I'm limited to only drawing enough to make sure I have money in case I live an exceptionally long time. The conventional wisdom is 4%, but the annuity quotes I'm looking at pay out a lot more than that because they're only worried about average life span. So with 250K, I can "safely" pull $833/month on my own, but the annuities would pay more like $1500/month ($1200 to start if I opt for the 2% annual COL increase to be included)
I'm thinking once I'm 70 I'm not going to want to be actively managing investments anymore. I don't know. It sounds rather appealing to have a solid base of guaranteed income with the investments tacked on as gravy.
but you plan for your house to be paid off, and you are in mid-low col area? 20k a year would go a long way. In comparison.....my property tax is about 1k/month. An alternate idea - if the 30 year treasury bond get to 5/6% or higher - maybe put 200k in there? would be about 10k a year, and last for 30 years.
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Post by minnesotapaintlady on Nov 5, 2022 13:07:08 GMT -5
I have no pension and my SS will be small even waiting until 70. Probably less than 2K/month. I can just draw money from my account, but then I'm limited to only drawing enough to make sure I have money in case I live an exceptionally long time. The conventional wisdom is 4%, but the annuity quotes I'm looking at pay out a lot more than that because they're only worried about average life span. So with 250K, I can "safely" pull $833/month on my own, but the annuities would pay more like $1500/month ($1200 to start if I opt for the 2% annual COL increase to be included)
I'm thinking once I'm 70 I'm not going to want to be actively managing investments anymore. I don't know. It sounds rather appealing to have a solid base of guaranteed income with the investments tacked on as gravy.
but you plan for your house to be paid off, and you are in mid-low col area? 20k a year would go a long way. In comparison.....my property tax is about 1k/month. An alternate idea - if the 30 year treasury bond get to 5/6% or higher - maybe put 200k in there? would be about 10k a year, and last for 30 years.But the annuity would be 18K/year and last forever. My house will be paid off, but the payment is only $4600/year, so not a huge factor in this.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 5, 2022 13:50:00 GMT -5
I've never wanted to pull the trigger on one. If I had, it would have been a delayed ("deferred") annuity that kicked in much later if I was still alive. I'd been thinking of buying one at age 65 that would start at age 85, which would protect me against running out of money if I lived very long. The things that always stop me (and I'm now 69):
1. You're trusting that the insurance company will be around. These companies are highly regulated, though, to make sure consumers are protected. I know of only one major failure, Mutual Benefit Life, and I think policyholders got some $$ back.
2. You may die before you hit that age and get nothing. Some have a Guaranteed Minimum Death Benefit but that costs extra.
3. You need to anticipate inflation. A payment of $4,000/month starting at age 85 may sound dandy now but when you're 85 it may not go as far as you think.
4. Agents are paid a generous commission to sell it. That's money that won't go to work for you.
There are some with VERY complicated moving parts- variable payments subject to a min and a max to protect you from stock market fluctuations (but you don't gain as much on the upside), for example. Some are "hybrids" that have some sort of long-term care provisions. I think it gets too confusing and I'm a property/casualty actuary. I'd go for straightforward.
I think azucena is a life actuary and she may be able to add to this.
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Post by minnesotapaintlady on Nov 5, 2022 14:31:06 GMT -5
I've never wanted to pull the trigger on one. If I had, it would have been a delayed ("deferred") annuity that kicked in much later if I was still alive. I'd been thinking of buying one at age 65 that would start at age 85, which would protect me against running out of money if I lived very long. The things that always stop me (and I'm now 69): You have a lot of assets though so having a baseline level of income is not a concern. I'm going to be skating the line where I PROBABLY have enough to draw what I'll need, but would need to be vigilant and watch the market and be willing to have lean years and there would always be that stress of not knowing what the future holds for income. Not sure I want to live like that or that I will have the mental acuity to do that 30 years from now. Also, and maybe more importantly, I think there is a high danger that I'll be too afraid to utilize my assets to the fullest and die with a pile of money. To me, that is as tragic as living on cat food the last few years. I mean, I might realize at age 80 that things are looking pretty good and I can loosen up without fear of outliving my money, but by 80 maybe I won't be able to do a lot of the things I would have liked to have done?
Again, only considering this for a small amount, and nothing fancy at all. The one I'm looking at is through New York Life and it has a 2% annual COL increase and a guaranteed payout for 20 years, so if I died before that my kids would continue to get the payments, basically you are guaranteed at least your principle back. My state also insures annuities up to 250K, so no worries about losing the principle anyhow.
I don't know. Just seriously started bouncing this around a few weeks ago so I'm still learning.
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Post by minnesotapaintlady on Nov 5, 2022 14:35:10 GMT -5
I have an annuity. One lump payment about 30% of retirement. Not immediate, but delay of one year. I'm wondering if it's like long-term care and it's better to just buy it now to start paying at say 65 (I'll be 54 in January) or wait until right before. I hate to talk to an insurance person to ask because you know they're going to say now! Might have to start digging into old threads on the Boglehead's forum.
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Post by CCL on Nov 5, 2022 16:04:27 GMT -5
I have an annuity. One lump payment about 30% of retirement. Not immediate, but delay of one year . It’s great to have a monthly check coming in. this and SS covers all our monthly bills .No worries about fluctuations in the stock market or whether or not to sell . From a major insurance company. Yes return is less than an investment in good years but won’t decrease in bad stock years. I like the reliability very much. I still have major portion in stock market to hedge against inflation over the years. Only once (this month) has the annuity and SS not easily covered monthly bill but that’s because our quarterly property tax $4500 and oil both due. Actually because of the big increase in oil price to $5.50/gallon. Figured out by delaying some payments don’t need to take anything from brokerage account It’s like a pension but the money I put in is guaranteed to be returned to my heirs. I took a lump sum when I retired decided not to take a pension because my heirs would get nothing This seems like a good way to use an annuity. I'd definitely go with a guaranteed payout to heirs if I were going with one. I don't think an annuity would work well for us, but I might change my mind. Our family members keep dying in their 60s, some younger, so I'm not waiting til 70 for anything. We took out life insurance policies instead.
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susana1954
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Post by susana1954 on Nov 5, 2022 16:25:43 GMT -5
minnesotapaintlady, I would be afraid that the problem with an annuity would be the same problem that my pension has . . . no COLA. Sure, right now I earn slightly more than I did working from my pension and DH's SS (survivor benefit). but it doesn't go as far as it did even 3 years ago. What about 10 years from now? 20? I'd hate to think I locked up a substantial amount of money that I might need for day-to-day expenses. Yes, it has to last me a lifetime, but at some point it might be necessary to take one day at a time. I know that this is "easy" for me to say because I do have a pension. (I think, by the way, Athena has a couple that add up to more than mine!) I don't have experience with annuities. But always remember that insurance companies rarely lose $$$ on the products they sell.
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Rukh O'Rorke
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Post by Rukh O'Rorke on Nov 5, 2022 16:29:53 GMT -5
but you plan for your house to be paid off, and you are in mid-low col area? 20k a year would go a long way. In comparison.....my property tax is about 1k/month. An alternate idea - if the 30 year treasury bond get to 5/6% or higher - maybe put 200k in there? would be about 10k a year, and last for 30 years.But the annuity would be 18K/year and last forever. My house will be paid off, but the payment is only $4600/year, so not a huge factor in this. that's 9%. do you get the money back like jerseygirl, or is it gone?
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susana1954
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Post by susana1954 on Nov 5, 2022 16:40:12 GMT -5
minnesotapaintlady, you are saying that you have found an annuity that pays you 9% a year guaranteed? That's what 18k on 200k would be.
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Post by jerseygirl on Nov 5, 2022 16:59:14 GMT -5
I’m getting about 8.25% on my annuity Best part is no worry about stock market gyrations and no need for me to manage anything. Then also that original amount will go to my heirs
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Post by Deleted on Nov 5, 2022 18:22:17 GMT -5
I’m getting about 8.25% on my annuity Best part is no worry about stock market gyrations and no need for me to manage anything. Then also that original amount will go to my heirs One reason these rates are so good is that part of what they give to you is a return of your own principal. Nothing wrong with that, of course, just an explanation. (I think, by the way, Athena has a couple that add up to more than mine!) I don't have experience with annuities. But always remember that insurance companies rarely lose $$$ on the products they sell. Yes, I do have 2 pensions- $1,800/month total, non-COLA. Amen to your last sentence. Still, as others have noted, they relieve you of the responsibility of managing the money and they assume the risk of not making enough or people living longer than expected, both of which are genuine risks if you're living off your own savings. That's why there's an expense component built in.
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Post by jerseygirl on Nov 5, 2022 19:01:56 GMT -5
I bought annuity mostly by cashing in individual bonds. So essentially bond interest substituted with annuity At the time I bought annuity interest rates on newer bonds kept decreasing . So as the bonds matured I would have gotten much less interest as these were replaced
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Post by minnesotapaintlady on Nov 5, 2022 19:03:23 GMT -5
minnesotapaintlady , you are saying that you have found an annuity that pays you 9% a year guaranteed? That's what 18k on 200k would be. I was confusing things by sometimes saying 200K. My quote was on 250K. And it's 8.38% Without the annual COL increase or guaranteed payout for X years (but with a return of remaining premium to beneficiaries if you die before payback of the principle) 10.26% eta: I thought the 8.38% included a 20 year guaranteed payout, but it's only 10. The 10.26% is return of unpaid out premium only and no annual COL.
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Post by minnesotapaintlady on Nov 5, 2022 19:12:13 GMT -5
But always remember that insurance companies rarely lose $$$ on the products they sell. Absolutely, they are making money hand over fist...ON THE GROUP. You're bunched with 10's of thousands of other people and the insurance company is betting you only live to the average age for your sex/age/state. If my life expectancy is 81 and I make it to 93 they don't lose money on me because there's just as many that drop dead long before the 81.
I can't take that kind of gamble and assume I'm only going to make it to 81 because if I live 15 years longer I'm screwed.
It's basically longevity insurance.
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Post by minnesotapaintlady on Nov 5, 2022 19:24:57 GMT -5
minnesotapaintlady , I would be afraid that the problem with an annuity would be the same problem that my pension has . . . no COLA. The one I had quoted did have a 2% year COL increase. Not a lot, but honestly, not much different than what I've gotten the past 30 years working either.
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geenamercile
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Post by geenamercile on Nov 5, 2022 20:40:28 GMT -5
I like the peace of mind my pension with SS gives me. It allows me to hopefully plan for the rest I save as extra/fun. If I didn't have the pension, I could see myself doing one for the peace of mind of knowing it will last me till death. I do think peace of mind is worth something.
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TheOtherMe
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Post by TheOtherMe on Nov 6, 2022 9:13:45 GMT -5
I am so happy I have a pension with a COLA. I don't think I could make it on the amount where it started.
Mom and dad relied on SS to live. They each had a pension. Dad's was $500 with no COLA--after over 30 years of employment. I don't know how it worked, as in how much he had paid in or if he paid in.
Mom was a waitress. When her legs would no longer let her do that, she was able to get a job with the State of Iowa. She stayed just a bit longer than the 5 years to get vested so her pension was small but it had a COLA. They also paid a bonus out each year.
When I got the statement of her contributions and amount paid to her, she made out like a bandit. She received more than 20 times what she had paid in because she lived so long.
Dad made his largest salary after we left home, so they put the max in IRAs each year. They were no longer working when Roths came to be. No 401Ks for them to invest in.
They were very risk averse so everything was in CDS and savings.
Despite the income they earned during their lifetimes, and they were very frugal, they were able to pay cash for their cars and houses and still leave my sister and I what I consider a modest inheritance. When mom quit smoking, all the carpet and furniture had to be replaced because she could smell the smoke.
Because I was a federal employee and deal with WEP, I never thought I would receive SS. Well I applied at 70 figuring I would receive a letter that I would receive nothing. Instead, I get enough to pay for my Medicare premiums and less than $100 per month.
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Post by finnime on Nov 6, 2022 14:35:02 GMT -5
Annuitizing your income in part makes sense to me. With a COLA, you need not worry about daily expenses, and that's everything when you're truly old. One thing to not worry about regardless of market fluctuations and prior employers going under.
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Rukh O'Rorke
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Post by Rukh O'Rorke on Nov 6, 2022 14:42:21 GMT -5
minnesotapaintlady , you are saying that you have found an annuity that pays you 9% a year guaranteed? That's what 18k on 200k would be. I was confusing things by sometimes saying 200K. My quote was on 250K. And it's 8.38% Without the annual COL increase or guaranteed payout for X years (but with a return of remaining premium to beneficiaries if you die before payback of the principle) 10.26% eta: I thought the 8.38% included a 20 year guaranteed payout, but it's only 10. The 10.26% is return of unpaid out premium only and no annual COL.
this seems to make more sense, otherwise the deal was seemingly too good! It's an option for sure. I'll also keep an eye on this with other options as I get closer to actually retiring. But we all know the house always wins, so that makes me hesitant on this kind of thing. Are you definitely waiting until 70 to take soc sec? If you put the 250 into cash or short term treasuries, and used that exclusively for paying expenses while waiting on ss, how long would that last? given your estimated costs in retirement?
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Rukh O'Rorke
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Post by Rukh O'Rorke on Nov 6, 2022 15:28:46 GMT -5
But always remember that insurance companies rarely lose $$$ on the products they sell. Absolutely, they are making money hand over fist...ON THE GROUP. You're bunched with 10's of thousands of other people and the insurance company is betting you only live to the average age for your sex/age/state. If my life expectancy is 81 and I make it to 93 they don't lose money on me because there's just as many that drop dead long before the 81.
I can't take that kind of gamble and assume I'm only going to make it to 81 because if I live 15 years longer I'm screwed.
It's basically longevity insurance.
This makes it more attractive to me, since both parents lived to mid/late 90's. Mom is 99 now and about 11 months until triple digits. Wonder if they ask about this at all? they do for life insurance. Also - I'm assuming you would still keep a sizable amount in the market? Not sure why you would be screwed living to 96? Also, soc sec has good COLA component? And then when money is gone, it is sell the house and get into an assisted living center that will let you stay till the end even if the money runs out. Wasn't that our plan, Shirley?
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Rukh O'Rorke
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Post by Rukh O'Rorke on Nov 6, 2022 15:47:09 GMT -5
In general, not specific to the annuity mentioned here, (and maybe it is just because we are getting older and closer to retirement?) but I wonder if the current economic situation is sending us onto ever more conservative financial plans? I used to be in the forever 100% stock boat but now i'm laddering treasuries as a hedge. If this is just a generic bear market, we're at least half way done. If it is going to be a decade lost to stagflation, we're already nearly 10% into it. I think given the increased knowledge about stagflation, that they should be able to figure it out in 5 years instead of 10? Perhaps just wishful thinking on my part! A quick google indicates that the fed is definitely trying to avoid the misteps in the 70's. So, if the stock market is back to 15% yearly returns in 4 years - would you still consider this annuity? Asking for a friend
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Post by Deleted on Nov 6, 2022 16:02:09 GMT -5
It's basically longevity insurance.
This makes it more attractive to me, since both parents lived to mid/late 90's. Mom is 99 now and about 11 months until triple digits. Wonder if they ask about this at all? they do for life insurance. [/quote] An old boss who was a life actuary AND a casualty actuary said they used a different mortality table to price annuities based solely on mortality in that group, because people who buy annuities are "self-selecting"- in other words, people like you who have an expectation of living a longer-than-average lifespan. So, that's built into the price. I'd be surprised if they do any underwriting at all. Low risk = low return. High risk = high return. (I bonds and Ponzi schemes are about the only exception to that principle.) Some people are willing to trade a lower guaranteed return for less volatility.
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Post by minnesotapaintlady on Nov 6, 2022 16:18:29 GMT -5
I was confusing things by sometimes saying 200K. My quote was on 250K. And it's 8.38% Without the annual COL increase or guaranteed payout for X years (but with a return of remaining premium to beneficiaries if you die before payback of the principle) 10.26% eta: I thought the 8.38% included a 20 year guaranteed payout, but it's only 10. The 10.26% is return of unpaid out premium only and no annual COL.
this seems to make more sense, otherwise the deal was seemingly too good! It's an option for sure. I'll also keep an eye on this with other options as I get closer to actually retiring. But we all know the house always wins, so that makes me hesitant on this kind of thing. Are you definitely waiting until 70 to take soc sec? If you put the 250 into cash or short term treasuries, and used that exclusively for paying expenses while waiting on ss, how long would that last? given your estimated costs in retirement? I would like to try to make it to 70 before drawing SS yes. I was low income most of my career and had a lot of money going into things like FSA and HSA that are SS exempt, so my payout will not be huge. Right now the estimate is something like $1200 at 62 and $2000 at 70. I'm guessing 250K could last me 10 years I suppose, but I don't plan on getting an annuity until at least 65 either...unless I find out that buying a deferred one now makes more sense.
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Post by minnesotapaintlady on Nov 6, 2022 16:23:42 GMT -5
Also - I'm assuming you would still keep a sizable amount in the market? Not sure why you would be screwed living to 96? Also, soc sec has good COLA component? I meant on that 250K if I tried to draw it at the rate the annuity paid out.
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Post by minnesotapaintlady on Nov 6, 2022 16:34:50 GMT -5
In general, not specific to the annuity mentioned here, (and maybe it is just because we are getting older and closer to retirement?) but I wonder if the current economic situation is sending us onto ever more conservative financial plans? I used to be in the forever 100% stock boat but now i'm laddering treasuries as a hedge. If this is just a generic bear market, we're at least half way done. If it is going to be a decade lost to stagflation, we're already nearly 10% into it. I think given the increased knowledge about stagflation, that they should be able to figure it out in 5 years instead of 10? Perhaps just wishful thinking on my part! A quick google indicates that the fed is definitely trying to avoid the misteps in the 70's. So, if the stock market is back to 15% yearly returns in 4 years - would you still consider this annuity? Asking for a friend It really isn't the market for me. I've been transitioning for awhile from studying up on how to accumulate assets to more on asset allocations, tax planning and spending in retirement. I just read Jane Bryant Quinn's book, "How to Make Your Money Last", and that's what sparked my interest in them.
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Rukh O'Rorke
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Post by Rukh O'Rorke on Nov 6, 2022 21:33:15 GMT -5
this seems to make more sense, otherwise the deal was seemingly too good! It's an option for sure. I'll also keep an eye on this with other options as I get closer to actually retiring. But we all know the house always wins, so that makes me hesitant on this kind of thing. Are you definitely waiting until 70 to take soc sec? If you put the 250 into cash or short term treasuries, and used that exclusively for paying expenses while waiting on ss, how long would that last? given your estimated costs in retirement? I would like to try to make it to 70 before drawing SS yes. I was low income most of my career and had a lot of money going into things like FSA and HSA that are SS exempt, so my payout will not be huge. Right now the estimate is something like $1200 at 62 and $2000 at 70. I'm guessing 250K could last me 10 years I suppose, but I don't plan on getting an annuity until at least 65 either...unless I find out that buying a deferred one now makes more sense.
Are those soci sec numbers assuming you continue in your current job up until taking benefits? Or what you've earned already? If I stop working now, I get 1770 at 62 and 3110 at 70. 1925 if i continue working until 62, and 3822 if i work until 70.
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