Rukh O'Rorke
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Post by Rukh O'Rorke on Aug 20, 2022 8:39:48 GMT -5
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Post by minnesotapaintlady on Aug 20, 2022 9:44:28 GMT -5
but this would certainly decrease my take home pay a lot, particularly if benefits go up for 2023. Especially if Secure Act 2.0 passes this year as written and all those catch-up contributions have to be Roth (unless you're already doing that). What do I think? After 5 years of maxing (including the catch-up the last 2), I'm about ready to tap out. I'm 4 months from not caring about my tax situation for the next 3 years and I'd really love to just quit the whole retirement savings thing altogether! Ok...maybe not altogether, but it sure would be nice to just be saving a more "normal" percentage. Even 25-30% total contribution (401K + IRA) would seem low. It's those damn tax credits that are hard to give up. If Secure Act passes it will make the decision easier for me. I for sure will be dropping all the catch-up contributions if that happens.
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Tiny
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Post by Tiny on Aug 20, 2022 15:25:24 GMT -5
My reaction is mostly just a ::sigh:: I just don't have enough income to keep up with the ever raising limits on all the tax advantaged accounts I have access to. That's been one of the "nice" things about the pandemic - my expenses dropped quite a bit in 2020 and thru most of 2021 so I was able to continue maxing my tax deferred accounts at a time when I didn't think I would be able to. So far for 2022 I'm still maxing my tax deferred - but with spending more because "life has resumed" with a side of "inflation" I'm not sure I'll be able to meet the new maximums in 2023 even with a cost of living raise and a slightly bigger bigger annual raise in 2022. I also wasn't expecting to be still employed... I'm not sure what the future holds so it's a little tricky to plan. Doing a little math 22,500 is 15% of 150,000. If 15% is the amount of recommended savings for retirement - I'm not sure how many American Household's have a 150K gross income. Which means will raising the limits for these kinds of accounts really do much for the majority of Americans?? It's looking and feeling like it's more of a boon to higher income families/individuals than anything else. They can get a little further ahead - while I just kind of hang on and hope for the best.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 20, 2022 15:45:10 GMT -5
My reaction is mostly just a ::sigh:: I just don't have enough income to keep up with the ever raising limits on all the tax advantaged accounts I have access to. That's been one of the "nice" things about the pandemic - my expenses dropped quite a bit in 2020 and thru most of 2021 so I was able to continue maxing my tax deferred accounts at a time when I didn't think I would be able to. So far for 2022 I'm still maxing my tax deferred - but with spending more because "life has resumed" with a side of "inflation" I'm not sure I'll be able to meet the new maximums in 2023 even with a cost of living raise and a slightly bigger bigger annual raise in 2022. I also wasn't expecting to be still employed... I'm not sure what the future holds so it's a little tricky to plan. Doing a little math 22,500 is 15% of 150,000. If 15% is the amount of recommended savings for retirement - I'm not sure how many American Household's have a 150K gross income. Which means will raising the limits for these kinds of accounts really do much for the majority of Americans?? It's looking and feeling like it's more of a boon to higher income families/individuals than anything else. They can get a little further ahead - while I just kind of hang on and hope for the best. by my calculations, 18.3% (note- not sure this is household): Approximately 33.6% of Americans make over $100,000 per year, with 15.3% of that number being those who make between $100,000-$150,000.
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Rukh O'Rorke
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Post by Rukh O'Rorke on Aug 20, 2022 17:11:37 GMT -5
but this would certainly decrease my take home pay a lot, particularly if benefits go up for 2023. Especially if Secure Act 2.0 passes this year as written and all those catch-up contributions have to be Roth (unless you're already doing that). What do I think? After 5 years of maxing (including the catch-up the last 2), I'm about ready to tap out. I'm 4 months from not caring about my tax situation for the next 3 years and I'd really love to just quit the whole retirement savings thing altogether! Ok...maybe not altogether, but it sure would be nice to just be saving a more "normal" percentage. Even 25-30% total contribution (401K + IRA) would seem low. It's those damn tax credits that are hard to give up. If Secure Act passes it will make the decision easier for me. I for sure will be dropping all the catch-up contributions if that happens. Wait…are you saying all catch up is mandated as post tax?? That will really hurt me….
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Rukh O'Rorke
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Post by Rukh O'Rorke on Aug 20, 2022 17:16:39 GMT -5
My reaction is mostly just a ::sigh:: I just don't have enough income to keep up with the ever raising limits on all the tax advantaged accounts I have access to. That's been one of the "nice" things about the pandemic - my expenses dropped quite a bit in 2020 and thru most of 2021 so I was able to continue maxing my tax deferred accounts at a time when I didn't think I would be able to. So far for 2022 I'm still maxing my tax deferred - but with spending more because "life has resumed" with a side of "inflation" I'm not sure I'll be able to meet the new maximums in 2023 even with a cost of living raise and a slightly bigger bigger annual raise in 2022. I also wasn't expecting to be still employed... I'm not sure what the future holds so it's a little tricky to plan. Doing a little math 22,500 is 15% of 150,000. If 15% is the amount of recommended savings for retirement - I'm not sure how many American Household's have a 150K gross income. Which means will raising the limits for these kinds of accounts really do much for the majority of Americans?? It's looking and feeling like it's more of a boon to higher income families/individuals than anything else. They can get a little further ahead - while I just kind of hang on and hope for the best. by my calculations, 18.3% (note- not sure this is household): Approximately 33.6% of Americans make over $100,000 per year, with 15.3% of that number being those who make between $100,000-$150,000.You’re assuming the 15.3% applies to the whole. As an SAT math problem, my interpretation is that the 15.3% applies to the 33.6%. Might be because I don’t see the entire passage, what iampicking up as “that number”
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Rukh O'Rorke
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Post by Rukh O'Rorke on Aug 20, 2022 17:18:38 GMT -5
Especially if Secure Act 2.0 passes this year as written and all those catch-up contributions have to be Roth (unless you're already doing that). What do I think? After 5 years of maxing (including the catch-up the last 2), I'm about ready to tap out. I'm 4 months from not caring about my tax situation for the next 3 years and I'd really love to just quit the whole retirement savings thing altogether! Ok...maybe not altogether, but it sure would be nice to just be saving a more "normal" percentage. Even 25-30% total contribution (401K + IRA) would seem low. It's those damn tax credits that are hard to give up. If Secure Act passes it will make the decision easier for me. I for sure will be dropping all the catch-up contributions if that happens. Wait…are you saying all catch up is mandated as post tax?? That will really hurt me…. Am mending to clarify….hurt me on taxes in the moment, might work out long term to be a good thing? Need to know marginal tax brackets for 2023….. And 2033 And beyond!
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Post by minnesotapaintlady on Aug 20, 2022 17:18:55 GMT -5
Especially if Secure Act 2.0 passes this year as written and all those catch-up contributions have to be Roth (unless you're already doing that). What do I think? After 5 years of maxing (including the catch-up the last 2), I'm about ready to tap out. I'm 4 months from not caring about my tax situation for the next 3 years and I'd really love to just quit the whole retirement savings thing altogether! Ok...maybe not altogether, but it sure would be nice to just be saving a more "normal" percentage. Even 25-30% total contribution (401K + IRA) would seem low. It's those damn tax credits that are hard to give up. If Secure Act passes it will make the decision easier for me. I for sure will be dropping all the catch-up contributions if that happens. Wait…are you saying all catch up is mandated as post tax?? That will really hurt me…. Yes, and both the House and Senate versions call for catch-up to be Roth, so it's not something likely to get thrown out.
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Rukh O'Rorke
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Post by Rukh O'Rorke on Aug 20, 2022 17:22:03 GMT -5
Wait…are you saying all catch up is mandated as post tax?? That will really hurt me…. Yes, and both the House and Senate versions call for catch-up to be Roth, so it's not something likely to get thrown out.
Holy crap! If passed will the tax begin jan 1st 2022 and will i be retroactively taxed on contribution already made? I do 250/pay period to max catch-up by year end.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 20, 2022 17:26:59 GMT -5
by my calculations, 18.3% (note- not sure this is household): Approximately 33.6% of Americans make over $100,000 per year, with 15.3% of that number being those who make between $100,000-$150,000.You’re assuming the 15.3% applies to the whole. As an SAT math problem, my interpretation is that the 15.3% applies to the 33.6%. Might be because I don’t see the entire passage, what iampicking up as “that number” huh? i am assuming 15.3% of 33.6% were between 100-150k, because that is what it says. that means that 18.3% were OVER $150k. oh. and i checked. it IS household income.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 20, 2022 17:30:12 GMT -5
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Post by minnesotapaintlady on Aug 20, 2022 17:31:46 GMT -5
Yes, and both the House and Senate versions call for catch-up to be Roth, so it's not something likely to get thrown out.
Holy crap! If passed will the tax begin jan 1st 2022 and will i be retroactively taxed on contribution already made? I do 250/pay period to max catch-up by year end. I think I grabbed a bad article to quote. I'm pretty sure that's a typo and they meant 1/1/2023. Every other article says starting in 2023. I have the actual bills somewhere. Should just read through them directly, but I'm assuming some things will change.
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Ava
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Post by Ava on Aug 20, 2022 17:42:27 GMT -5
If they make catch up contributions taxable, I'm stopping that. I would do IRA, 401K up to the max, and no catch up. It's better for me to use that money for paying off the car loan, to begin with, and then mortgage and SL.
Are IRA catch up contributions also going to be roth only?
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Post by minnesotapaintlady on Aug 20, 2022 17:57:08 GMT -5
Are IRA catch up contributions also going to be roth only? I've only seen employer sponsored plans referenced when talking about requiring the catch-up to be Roth. The only thing I've read about in regards to IRA catch-up is they want to make that catch up contribution amount indexed to inflation (current law has it at a straight $1000 forever).
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Ava
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Post by Ava on Aug 20, 2022 18:07:57 GMT -5
Oh, I see. I'm eligible this year for catch up contributions. If they make the 401k catch up roth only, I'm stopping that. But I will continue with the IRA catch up.
I will keep checking for information, since nothing is set in stone yet.
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Post by minnesotapaintlady on Aug 20, 2022 18:14:16 GMT -5
Nope. It might not happen at all, but most believe it will pass this year in some form as it has a lot of bipartisan support and both bills are very similar.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2022 0:31:59 GMT -5
Taxable vs. after-tax is a crapshoot.
I maxed out 401(k) contributions including catch-up while I was working. Roth was an option only later in the game and I now have too much income to make "back-door" conversions worthwhile.
I haven't withdrawn from my IRAs yet other than an inherited one I need to liquidate over 10 years. It's a ticking time bomb. It's all taxable as ordinary income, of course- dividends, LT gains, everything. Whatever I withdraw gets added into my AGI, triggering IRMAA surcharges on Medicare premiums and cutting back what I can deduct for Medical since it's only amounts over a % of your AGI. I'm gradually moving into ETFs and a few individual stocks to avoid the surprises of capital gains distributions on mutual funds in my after-tax accounts.
Add in the cost of all the stimulus packages and the Inflation Reduction Act, which are likely to increase taxes on "the rich" and I'm not sure deferring taxes was a good idea in my case.
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jerseygirl
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Post by jerseygirl on Aug 21, 2022 9:13:13 GMT -5
Yes the taxes on tIRAs mandated RMDs are tough. Thinking the tax savings when we used them wasn’t worth it compared to what we now need to do. No break for capital gains just regular income and increased AGI. I moved a good chunk to a Roth in 2020 when no RMDs were mandated. If we moved yearly to a Roth now the IRMAAs really hurt! We never anticipated that we would have saved this much or it would grow to what we now have. Grateful but surprised . Thinking maybe just move the whole tIRA take the big hit with taxes and IRMAAs then done. Another idea, just keep taking the required RMDs and our kids will need to deal with the taxes over 10 years
We weren’t able to do Roths when both working or my consulting. I had a financial advisor who really discouraged backdoor Roths. She said not really ‘legal’. Changed advisors and discovered it wasn’t a problem legally but financially a tax problem I’m encouraging kids and grands to do Roths
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Post by minnesotapaintlady on Aug 21, 2022 10:06:27 GMT -5
Traditional 401K is far better for me. I essentially get a 40% kickback on every traditional dollar, so crazy not to take it. I put all the tax savings in my Roth IRA. I'll be living off of tax-deferred funds, no pension, so not worried about RMDs ever getting to be a problem.
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jerseygirl
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Post by jerseygirl on Aug 21, 2022 10:11:34 GMT -5
Traditional 401K is far better for me. I essentially get a 40% kickback on every traditional dollar, so crazy not to take it. I put all the tax savings in my Roth IRA. I'll be living off of tax-deferred funds, no pension, so not worried about RMDs ever getting to be a problem. Putting tax savings in a Roth is a REALLY smart idea!!
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teen persuasion
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Post by teen persuasion on Aug 21, 2022 10:48:01 GMT -5
Traditional 401K is far better for me. I essentially get a 40% kickback on every traditional dollar, so crazy not to take it. I put all the tax savings in my Roth IRA. I'll be living off of tax-deferred funds, no pension, so not worried about RMDs ever getting to be a problem. Us, too. The effective tax rate due to EITC phaseout + state EITC was 27.6% before I even got to actual tax brackets for federal and state. Now I'm in the opposite problem - instead of trying to defer more to push up our EITC, I have to defer less so that I don't reduce our EITC - DH retired, so w/o his income I can only defer ~ $10k and stay at max EITC. But I can Roth convert ~ $14k and stay at max EITC, just at the other end of the plateau. Hit the min on w2 wages = hit max on AGI.
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Rukh O'Rorke
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Post by Rukh O'Rorke on Aug 21, 2022 12:35:13 GMT -5
Nope. It might not happen at all, but most believe it will pass this year in some form as it has a lot of bipartisan support and both bills are very similar. it's a bit mean-spirited to force the catch up into roth because you can only do the catchup when you are close to retirement/old and then if won't grow as much and the tax-free earning won't be much......
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Rukh O'Rorke
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Post by Rukh O'Rorke on Aug 21, 2022 12:48:58 GMT -5
Yes the taxes on tIRAs mandated RMDs are tough. Thinking the tax savings when we used them wasn’t worth it compared to what we now need to do. No break for capital gains just regular income and increased AGI. I moved a good chunk to a Roth in 2020 when no RMDs were mandated. If we moved yearly to a Roth now the IRMAAs really hurt! We never anticipated that we would have saved this much or it would grow to what we now have. Grateful but surprised . Thinking maybe just move the whole tIRA take the big hit with taxes and IRMAAs then done. Another idea, just keep taking the required RMDs and our kids will need to deal with the taxes over 10 years We weren’t able to do Roths when both working or my consulting. I had a financial advisor who really discouraged backdoor Roths. She said not really ‘legal’. Changed advisors and discovered it wasn’t a problem legally but financially a tax problem I’m encouraging kids and grands to do Roths but aren't tax brackets lower now, so a better deal for the 401k moneys? I hope I'm not tucking it away to save 22-24% tax, and then find I take it out on 36% tax - or whatever the rates may be in the next decade or two! Rather than move the whole tIRA, you could just do a big enough chunk that future RMDs won't trigger so much tax/IRMAA, but that you could siphon 10-20-30k a year whaever works out with your income profile. But even if I do end up drawing out money in say a 35% tax scenario - that is still only the upper part of it. So if I take out 90k then myabe it is the 75-90k that is higher taxed and up to 74k will be lower than the 22% I put the money in under.... You just never know until your estate is closed, which way would have worked out better. And who wnts to keep track of all that anyway!
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Rukh O'Rorke
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Post by Rukh O'Rorke on Aug 21, 2022 13:27:20 GMT -5
Traditional 401K is far better for me. I essentially get a 40% kickback on every traditional dollar, so crazy not to take it. I put all the tax savings in my Roth IRA. I'll be living off of tax-deferred funds, no pension, so not worried about RMDs ever getting to be a problem. I'm not sure what is better for me trad vs roth. I know I have been able to invest a lot more money with traditional due to the tax savings. While the RMDs do force your hand at some point - all you have to do is pay the taxes and then put the money into taxable account. As Jersey girl mentioned, you can do a hge amount to take the hit in one year and then move on.
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Rukh O'Rorke
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Post by Rukh O'Rorke on Aug 21, 2022 13:29:34 GMT -5
Traditional 401K is far better for me. I essentially get a 40% kickback on every traditional dollar, so crazy not to take it. I put all the tax savings in my Roth IRA. I'll be living off of tax-deferred funds, no pension, so not worried about RMDs ever getting to be a problem. Putting tax savings in a Roth is a REALLY smart idea!! MPL has a lot of discipline! While I saved a bunch in taxes, I couldn't bein to actually quantify it or tell you where it went.
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Rukh O'Rorke
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Post by Rukh O'Rorke on Aug 21, 2022 14:20:45 GMT -5
Taxable vs. after-tax is a crapshoot. I maxed out 401(k) contributions including catch-up while I was working. Roth was an option only later in the game and I now have too much income to make "back-door" conversions worthwhile. I haven't withdrawn from my IRAs yet other than an inherited one I need to liquidate over 10 years. It's a ticking time bomb. It's all taxable as ordinary income, of course- dividends, LT gains, everything. Whatever I withdraw gets added into my AGI, triggering IRMAA surcharges on Medicare premiums and cutting back what I can deduct for Medical since it's only amounts over a % of your AGI. I'm gradually moving into ETFs and a few individual stocks to avoid the surprises of capital gains distributions on mutual funds in my after-tax accounts. Add in the cost of all the stimulus packages and the Inflation Reduction Act, which are likely to increase taxes on "the rich" and I'm not sure deferring taxes was a good idea in my case. This is likely not the best plan. Have you figured out what your top tax bracket will be when you get to RMDs? If you can start to make sure you top out the lower bracket now and move unused money into taxable, you will not only come out ahead, but those investments will start growing outside the 401k rather than inside. So if it looks like you might be hitting the 32% bracket later on, might as well top out the 24% bracket now while you have more control of your income. If you already have an income of more than 165k after the standard deduction and without touching your 401k money - not sure what kind of sympathy you are looking for! After you hit 32%, the next levels are 35 and then 37. IMHO, not such a huge difference in tax rates and at such a high level of income that while you can still try to minimize exposure to them by withdrawing at the 32% tax rate now, I likely wouldn't spend a whole lot of time and effort to try to avoid. But the 24% to 32% is something that could really make a difference and at an income/net worth level where the effects would be felt. You could also just move 500k, maybe a million, more? out of the 401k and into a taxable account and be done with it. You have choices, you have options, you can be proactive about this.
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saveinla
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Post by saveinla on Aug 21, 2022 14:32:30 GMT -5
I did not have a Roth, so I started maxing my catch up contribution last year and put it into a Roth 401K. So if the bill passes, I am ahead . I was starting to think about slowly moving all contributions to the Roth 401K and completely give up the tax benefit, but given the new RMD start of 75, I still have a lot of time to start moving from traditional to Roth and paying lesser tax rather than give up the only tax benefit we have right now.
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jerseygirl
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Post by jerseygirl on Aug 21, 2022 14:43:15 GMT -5
Thinking IRMAAs bother me more than taxes. It’s a monthly reminder. also most of the IRA RMDs are from mine as I worked much longer and at better paid jobs than him. He gets annoyed at the IRMAA and says not fair no matter how he intellectually knows it still feels ‘not fair’
Yeah yeah yeah I feel dopey complaining or an entitled creep
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Rukh O'Rorke
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Post by Rukh O'Rorke on Aug 21, 2022 14:54:44 GMT -5
Thinking IRMAAs bother me more than taxes. It’s a monthly reminder. also most of the IRA RMDs are from mine as I worked much longer and at better paid jobs than him. He gets annoyed at the IRMAA and says not fair no matter how he intellectually knows it still feels ‘not fair’ Yeah yeah yeah I feel dopey complaining or an entitled creep I think it just human nature! Do you think you will do the one big move out of 401 rollovers and take the big tax hit? Wondering if you have done a cost/benefit analysis. Looks like max IRMAA is $578.30/month. So an additional cost of less than 14k/year for insurance. plus may another 10k for the base medicare charge? So maybe 25k/year for 2 people. That is not alot considering alternate sources for insurance in the post 65 age groups, and to paying a one-time tax of 32-37% on a large transfer of funds from pre-tax to post tax may not be worth it. Of course, may also favorable impact a lot of other taxes over the next 2-3-4 decades. If everyone was charged "full rate" for medicare, and then lower income levels got a "discount" rather than apply a surcharge on higher earners - I wonder if that would adjust people perceptions?
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jerseygirl
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Post by jerseygirl on Aug 21, 2022 15:04:28 GMT -5
Thinking IRMAAs bother me more than taxes. It’s a monthly reminder. also most of the IRA RMDs are from mine as I worked much longer and at better paid jobs than him. He gets annoyed at the IRMAA and says not fair no matter how he intellectually knows it still feels ‘not fair’ Yeah yeah yeah I feel dopey complaining or an entitled creep I think it just human nature! Do you think you will do the one big move out of 401 rollovers and take the big tax hit? Wondering if you have done a cost/benefit analysis. Looks like max IRMAA is $578.30/month. So an additional cost of less than 14k/year for insurance. plus may another 10k for the base medicare charge? So maybe 25k/year for 2 people. That is not alot considering alternate sources for insurance in the post 65 age groups, and to paying a one-time tax of 32-37% on a large transfer of funds from pre-tax to post tax may not be worth it. Of course, may also favorable impact a lot of other taxes over the next 2-3-4 decades. If everyone was charged "full rate" for medicare, and then lower income levels got a "discount" rather than apply a surcharge on higher earners - I wonder if that would adjust people perceptions? Thanks Rukh!! You put it very succinctly. This year I’m probably just donating my whole RMD to the charity I’m on board. So wouldn’t count on our income. We may be getting a vacant dorm at the school for the deaf to convert for low income deaf deaf blind seniors. If the state approves contract it’s a deal!! But the state is sooo slow. We’ve been trying to get this done with different developers but now have this opportunity with the state. It’s been 15 years of disappointments.
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