What do you think? Woman sues Walmart over pking lot fire

[Opti]

www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/mom-sues-walmart-after-parking-lot-fire-killed-sleeping-child-in-car/ss-AA10B9vi?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=6df4e932a9e34984a0e736420594c82e#image=1


A Minnesota mother is suing Walmart after a fire in a parking lot burned her two daughters, killing one and permanently disfiguring the other. Essie McKenzie, 33, was shopping at the Walmart in Fridley, Minnesota, in 2019 when her daughters, Ty'rah, 6, and Taraji, 9, were caught in a fire after Roberto Hipolito left a hot camping stove inside his minivan besides the girls' car.

She got a settlement from Hippolito for $130K which isn't much given the burns her daughter sustained. However, is Walmart more culpable for this incident than the mom who left two sleeping children in the car? Horrific accident and pics are in the slideshow.

[billisonboard]

... is Walmart more culpable for this incident than the mom ...

No. Does Walmart have some culpability? I imperfectly remember reading stuff about Walmart allowing/not allowing people to stay overnight in their parking lots. If it was corporate policy to allow people to stay (with the idea that these people would increase store profits), then I would say they do have some culpability. I can see splitting it into thirds, so $130k from Walmart. If it was posted and reasonably enforced that people weren't allowed to use it as a campground, I say no culpability.

[laterbloomer]

I really hope not. Walmart lets RV's park for free. If they are found responsible for this I can see that coming to an end. And affecting other businesses that allow overnight parking. As the owner of a camper van that will suck.

[billisonboard]

Since I don't have any financial self-interest in the outcome, I certainly had a different perspective on it. 

[Opti]

www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/mom-sues-walmart-after-6-year-old-died-in-the-parking-lot/ar-AA10zmrl


Essie McKenzie filed a civil lawsuit against Walmart in June, according to local station KSTP-TV. Around 7 a.m. on August 6, 2019, McKenzie left her two daughters napping in her parked car while she shopped at a Walmart in Fridley, Minnesota. The girls were tired after she had brought them along to drop off relatives at the airport early that morning, so she decided to let them keep sleeping while she shopped for groceries, McKenzie said in her lawsuit.

Now, McKenzie has said that Walmart's negligence is responsible for her child's wrongful death. Her lawsuit accuses the company of failing to monitor overnight campers in its parking lots, alleging that Walmart "escalated the danger to create a foreseeable risk that Mr. Hipolito would use and store a cook stove negligently and thereby cause harm to others."


What I see js two people did stupid things on early morning. A traveling couple may have used a stove in the parking lot, packed it up too soon and moved the vehicle closer to the store. Thus, in this case ensuring their vehicle and others would be destroyed by fire. I would not assume someone would be so brilliantly stupid as it seems to me if you are going to cook with a portable stove in a parking lot you would stay far away from other vehicles and not pack it up until it was safe. A mom left two young sleeping girls in a car while she shopped which left them at risk of being carjacked, kidnapped, etc. I agree burning up in a fire should not have been expected, however, if she had made them come in with her, they would be unburned and alive. 

I feel for the mom's pain as who would expect a vehicle to park next to you erupt into flames while you were shopping? If she didn't see it coming, it feels illogical to expect Walmart to anticipate that. Or am I missing a significant amount of vehicles burning in Walmart parking lots due to similar cooking incidents any time of the day?

[Opti]

The vehicle containing the stove was not an RV, just a van. Its not very different from the black vehicle which I am thinking is where the girls were.

[NoNamePerson]

I deleted my post since it was a van and not an RV. 

[Opti]

No worries. I don't think this was that easy to protect from as it was a van during the day. 

[Tiny]

There's not enough info.    

I've never "overnighted" in my vehicle in a parking lot - but I have heard that WalMart in some areas is friendly to "overnighters" - be they in their car (mini-van) or RV.      From what I've gleaned of this practice is that the "overnighters" tend to congregate along the fringes of the parking lot - so that they do not take up prime parking spots for WalMart customers.   

FWIW: when I think of WalMart parking lots - I envision a GINORMOUS open area for hundreds of vehicles in front of the Big Box store.    
 
I'm guessing McKenzie parked her vehicle with sleeping kids in it in a parking spot close to the entrance of the store (she's a shopper - that's what typical shoppers do).    

I'm guessing the mini van with the hot stove  moved from where ever it overnighted in the lot to be closer to the parked "shopper" cars...  
 

FWIW:    I'm thinking anytime anyone parks in a public parking lot that they nor the parking lot owner has little to no control over who parks next to who.     

The car that pulled in next to her vehicle with sleeping kids could have held any sort of threat to the safety of her kids.    WalMart couldn't control that.   Just like they can't control for accidents that happen in the lot or thefts from parked vehicles or any other sort of crimes. 

I'm really biased - after having tales of relatives or friends cars broken into in parking lots (stories spanning decades)    I personally would NOT leave anything of value in my car (including my pet or the children I never had or my elderly relative who looked vulnerable) in a public parking lot.     My illusion of security in a public parking lot is very very low.   It doesn't mean I'm afraid to park in public parking lots - it just means that once I leave my vehicle in a public parking lot - I have little "security illusion"  that it will be in the same condition that I left it when I return.   

If I was on the jury for this case - I would be on the WalMart isn't at fault side of the case.    

That doesn't mean I feel that  McKenzie  was at fault or got what she deserved for leaving her kids in the car.   
I feel very bad for her and her surviving child (and her family)  a bad thing happened to someone who didn't deserve it.     I do not think WalMart has a big enough "at fault" in this terrible situation to have to pay for it.  

Based on my assumption that the minivan with the hot stove MOVED to the "not overnight" area of the parking lot. 

[billisonboard]

 If she didn't see it coming, it feels illogical to expect Walmart to anticipate that. 

I have had a couple of jobs in which part of my duties was risk assessment. A part of that is to do better assessments than the average person. Walmart should have full-time experts.

[Opti]

Aug 13, 2022 12:50:00 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

 If she didn't see it coming, it feels illogical to expect Walmart to anticipate that. 

I have had a couple of jobs in which part of my duties was risk assessment. A part of that is to do better assessments than the average person. Walmart should have full-time experts.

I don't know what Walmart has or has not in the way of risk assessment. Given no one from Walmart actually patrols the lot, or at least not by me, it seems weird to think they would do risk assessment for the parking lot. I learned the hard way that parking lot cameras, should they exist usually only cover near store entrances and maybe 10 cars deep if that. 

Found an article from back then. 


www.khou.com/article/news/local/6-year-old-dead-1-critical-after-van-fire-in-walmart-parking-lot-man-charged/89-265f7765-a2a8-4f8c-8329-70af8535dd3f

Surveillance video just prior to the fire, shows Hipolito placing the stove on the pavement by the rear of the vehicle and using the stove to cook something, police said. After cooking, Hipolito puts the stove in the rear of the vehicle, and then he moves the vehicle closer to the store entrance. Hipolito can be seen going to the store and approximately two minutes later, a passerby tells his wife that the rear of the vehicle is on fire. She then gets out and tries to remove belongings but the fire spreads within 30 seconds of the rear door being opened, police said.



Withing minutes, the vehicles on each side of the van are also on fire, including the one from which the two children were removed.

[moon/Laura]

This is an absolute tragedy and the $130K that McKenzie received is way too low. A slap in the face, given the medical care her surviving child will need. That said, I can't see how Walmart is culpable for the Hipolitos being fucking morons. The fact that it's on their property shouldn't mean anything in this specific instance, IMO.

[billisonboard]

Aug 13, 2022 13:11:13 GMT -5 Opti said:

Aug 13, 2022 12:50:00 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

 If she didn't see it coming, it feels illogical to expect Walmart to anticipate that. 

I have had a couple of jobs in which part of my duties was risk assessment. A part of that is to do better assessments than the average person. Walmart should have full-time experts.

I don't know what Walmart has or has not in the way of risk assessment. Given no one from Walmart actually patrols the lot, or at least not by me, it seems weird to think they would do risk assessment for the parking lot. I learned the hard way that parking lot cameras, should they exist usually only cover near store entrances and maybe 10 cars deep if that. 

Found an article from back then. 


www.khou.com/article/news/local/6-year-old-dead-1-critical-after-van-fire-in-walmart-parking-lot-man-charged/89-265f7765-a2a8-4f8c-8329-70af8535dd3f

Surveillance video just prior to the fire, shows Hipolito placing the stove on the pavement by the rear of the vehicle and using the stove to cook something, police said. After cooking, Hipolito puts the stove in the rear of the vehicle, and then he moves the vehicle closer to the store entrance. Hipolito can be seen going to the store and approximately two minutes later, a passerby tells his wife that the rear of the vehicle is on fire. She then gets out and tries to remove belongings but the fire spreads within 30 seconds of the rear door being opened, police said.



Withing minutes, the vehicles on each side of the van are also on fire, including the one from which the two children were removed.

I have no doubt risk assessment is done to some degree for every aspect of Walmart's operation. What is the official procedure for cleaning up a glass container broken by a customer on the sales floor? It was developed in part by assessing the risk to customers and employees. Management works to make sure that procedure is taught and followed but the assessment was done long before a jar hit the floor.

Does Walmart have signs or no signs in their parking lots which indicate that overnight stays are or are not allowed? It doesn't matter what the actual answer is. Whatever it is, it is because risk was assessed for all options and a decision was made. Is it patrolled or not. An assessment of risk was done and a decision made. Patrols could actually increase culpability because it shows you knew there was risk and if something happens it can be questioned if the patrols were adequate.

[Opti]

Aug 13, 2022 14:01:33 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Aug 13, 2022 13:11:13 GMT -5 Opti said:

I don't know what Walmart has or has not in the way of risk assessment. Given no one from Walmart actually patrols the lot, or at least not by me, it seems weird to think they would do risk assessment for the parking lot. I learned the hard way that parking lot cameras, should they exist usually only cover near store entrances and maybe 10 cars deep if that. 

Found an article from back then. 


www.khou.com/article/news/local/6-year-old-dead-1-critical-after-van-fire-in-walmart-parking-lot-man-charged/89-265f7765-a2a8-4f8c-8329-70af8535dd3f

Surveillance video just prior to the fire, shows Hipolito placing the stove on the pavement by the rear of the vehicle and using the stove to cook something, police said. After cooking, Hipolito puts the stove in the rear of the vehicle, and then he moves the vehicle closer to the store entrance. Hipolito can be seen going to the store and approximately two minutes later, a passerby tells his wife that the rear of the vehicle is on fire. She then gets out and tries to remove belongings but the fire spreads within 30 seconds of the rear door being opened, police said.



Withing minutes, the vehicles on each side of the van are also on fire, including the one from which the two children were removed.

I have no doubt risk assessment is done to some degree for every aspect of Walmart's operation. What is the official procedure for cleaning up a glass container broken by a customer on the sales floor? It was developed in part by assessing the risk to customers and employees. Management works to make sure that procedure is taught and followed but the assessment was done long before a jar hit the floor.

Does Walmart have signs or no signs in their parking lots which indicate that overnight stays are or are not allowed? It doesn't matter what the actual answer is. Whatever it is, it is because risk was assessed for all options and a decision was made. Is it patrolled or not. An assessment of risk was done and a decision made. Patrols could actually increase culpability because it shows you knew there was risk and if something happens it can be questioned if the patrols were adequate.

I was able to find three mentions of fire in vehicles in Walmart parking lots. As of January of this year, there are 4,742 Walmarts in the US. Shootings are probably more common. One was an RV that burned up. One was traced to a heater used in a car; the woman and one daughter survived, the five-year-old did not. And then this incident. 

[billisonboard]

Aug 13, 2022 14:09:36 GMT -5 Opti said:

Aug 13, 2022 14:01:33 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

I have no doubt risk assessment is done to some degree for every aspect of Walmart's operation. What is the official procedure for cleaning up a glass container broken by a customer on the sales floor? It was developed in part by assessing the risk to customers and employees. Management works to make sure that procedure is taught and followed but the assessment was done long before a jar hit the floor.

Does Walmart have signs or no signs in their parking lots which indicate that overnight stays are or are not allowed? It doesn't matter what the actual answer is. Whatever it is, it is because risk was assessed for all options and a decision was made. Is it patrolled or not. An assessment of risk was done and a decision made. Patrols could actually increase culpability because it shows you knew there was risk and if something happens it can be questioned if the patrols were adequate.

I was able to find three mentions of fire in vehicles in Walmart parking lots. As of January of this year, there are 4,742 Walmarts in the US. Shootings are probably more common. One was an RV that burned up. One was traced to a heater used in a car; the woman and one daughter survived, the five-year-old did not. And then this incident. 

certainly information used by risk assessors.

[Works4me]

Two words: Deep Pockets. 

[finnime]

Deep pockets, yes.

It is generally known that parking overnight at Walmarts is permitted. That may not be germaine here, except that overnight parkers may have a larger call to cook near their vehicles. So, since people are stupid, it would make sense for Walmart to post No Fires or No Cooking signs on their properties. I don't know if Walmart does, but many stores post signs saying Park at Your Own Risk.

It sounds like the people who started the fire were doing the equivalent of tailgating. So, No Tailgating signage may be needed. Maybe more than Walmart, the maker of the hibachi or whatever was used could be liable. Were there large warnings packaged on or with the equipment warning against leaving hot coals? Because people are stupid.

I feel really bad for the children and their mother.

[Opti]

Aug 14, 2022 1:24:23 GMT -5 Works4me said:

Two words: Deep Pockets. 

Agreed. The guy was extremely stupid, and the wife wasn't much better. Because she opened the back door of the van, she gave the fire oxygen, and everything burned very fast.

If the couple had been wealthier, she probably would not be suing Walmart.

[andi9899]

Honestly, the mom shouldn't have left her children unattended IMO. I can't stand people leaving little kids in cars.

ETA: The people who started the fire were part of the problem too, but had the kids not been left unattended, they wouldn't have been hurt.

[billisonboard]

Janice Van Allen, Sr. Director, Risk Management at Walmart
About

Experienced Senior Director of Risk Management with a demonstrated history of working in the retail industry. Experienced in Workers’ Compensation, ERISA Plans, and General Liability managing both internal and 3rd party claims teams. Skilled in Store Operations, Financial Acumen, Coaching, Business Analysis, Cross-functional Team Leadership, and Asset Protection. Strong professional with a Bachelors focused in Organizational Management from John Brown University.

link

[Ava]

The Walmart near me used to let vehicles stay overnight.
A few years ago that changed and now there are signs everywhere prohibiting it.
I guess it's because of this accident. The timeline matches.
What a horrible tragedy.

[Opti]

www.familyeducation.com/car-safety/is-it-ever-okay-to-leave-your-kids-in-the-car


Currently only 19 states in the US have laws that specifically make it illegal to leave a child unattended in a vehicle. Is your state one of them? You can learn more about your state’s regulations at KidsandCars.org.

According to Heritage Defense,



A parent who leaves a child who is twelve (12) or older alone in a vehicle is generally not considered to be leaving them unattended.

A parent who leaves a child with someone who is fourteen (14) or older is generally not considered to be leaving them unattended.